A possible solution for the PSA 8 T206 Wagner?

[Leon]

I was just speaking with a good hobby friend about the PSA 8 T206 Wagner, and the implications the current news could have. That being said I told him of a possible solution and he thought it could work. We know PSA grades some strip series with a number and the caveat on the flip of : (Hand Cut).

I could see that potentially working for this card, do you? Of course purists might say no, but if it were to say PSA 8 Hand Cut it could take the stigma away, be correct (if the new info is true) and possibly the card wouldn't lose value (could even gain?). It is still the nicest looking one in the hobby, regardless of what is done. I am going to limit the different poll responses on purpose.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Was it cut from a sheet, then trimmed, or is it a factory card that was trimmed? If it's a factory card, the hand cut designation won't work, because it refers as you know to cards that were MEANT to be hand cut.

[calvindog]

At this point what's the difference what is on the slab? Everyone knows (or will soon know) exactly what occurred to the card. It's not like it will somehow slip through the cracks at a TPG and be given a numerical grade.

[christopher.herman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Was it cut from a sheet, then trimmed, or is it a factory card that was trimmed? If it's a factory card, the hand cut designation won't work, because it refers as you know to cards that were MEANT to be hand cut.

Agreed. A trimmed/hand cut/machine cut T206 (after the original factory cut) is Auth, no matter how nicely it presents or who the player is. PSA is at best negligent here or at worst complicit in fraud.

Chris.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Leon

I was just speaking with a good hobby friend about the PSA 8 T206 Wagner, and the implications the current news could have. That being said I told him of a possible solution and he thought it could work. We know PSA grades some strip series with a number and the caveat on the flip of : (Hand Cut).

I could see that potentially working for this card, do you? Of course purists might say no, but if it were to say PSA 8 Hand Cut it could take the stigma away, be correct (if the new info is true) and possibly the card wouldn't lose value (could even gain?). It is still the nicest looking one in the hobby, regardless of what is done. I am going to limit the different poll responses on purpose.

The implications of this would be that collectors with full-production-run uncut sheets should then be able to cut up the sheets and have the cards receive numerical grades (with appropriate designations on the slab).

Further implications would be that hand-cut factory issues (e.g., T210s that exhibit wavy borders) should receive numerical grades (with appropriate designation on the slab), as should all undersized cards that are not suspected of being trimmed (designation on slab to say to effect "factory-issued undersized card").

In raising these issues, I'm not saying all or any of this would be a bad thing, only that I don't see how one could make an exception for only the "8" Wagner.

[e107collector]

Corey,

Nicely put, I agree with your post.

Also, does anyone happen to have an enlarged, high res photo of the PSA 8 Wagner, that they would be willing to post? I can only find smaller photos online. I'd like to see the borders close up. How drastic is the "trim job."

Tony

[barrysloate]

Aren't all trimmed cards hand cut? None of the card doctors send their cards to a factory- they hand cut them themselves.

This card was cut to deceive. I don't see how hand cut would apply. It's trimmed. Period. It's not a PSA 8 in any way whatsoever.

[novakjr]

Regardless of what grade, or trim status, or proof sheet, whatever, this card transcends all of that. It stands alone, as THE most famous individual copy of the THE most famous card EVER made.. No matter what the status of the slab on this card, it's value will hold, and continue to rise in value with each transaction.. The current owner paid 2.8 million, and I guarantee it does not leave his ownership for less than that.

PSA 8, PSA 8(hand cut), PSA authentic trimmed, whatever, are all irrelevant here...As long as McNall/Gretzky remains on the slab, the card's history will always be available for all to see.. And that's exactly what people will pay for, it's history.

I think irrelevancy should be an option on this poll.

[calvindog]

Agreed with what Barry wrote.

Though I'm not so sure the value of the card continues to rise at least in the near future.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

The implications of this would be that collectors with full-production-run uncut sheets should then be able to cut up the sheets and have the cards receive numerical grades (with appropriate designations on the slab).

Further implications would be that hand-cut factory issues (e.g., T210s that exhibit wavy borders) should receive numerical grades (with appropriate designation on the slab), as should all undersized cards that are not suspected of being trimmed (designation on slab to say to effect "factory-issued undersized card").

In raising these issues, I'm not saying all or any of this would be a bad thing, only that I don't see how one could make an exception for only the "8" Wagner.

First of all I think this already happens and has happened, per the comment about sheets. Just take a sheet of strip cards, cut them, send them in...and I think there is a good chance they get graded numerically. Note, I have never done or tried it. I am not aware of any T206 sheets except the one strip. Maybe it could be a change in the way grades of hand cut cards are done. I know for a fact PSA already grades W502 (and I am sure others series too) with both a number and the 'hand cut" designation.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Leon

First of all I think this already happens and has happened, per the comment about sheets. Just take a sheet of strip cards, cut them, send them in...and I think there is a good chance they get graded numerically. Note, I have never done or tried it. I am not aware of any T206 sheets except the one strip. Maybe it could be a change in the way grades of hand cut cards are done. I know for a fact PSA already grades W502 (and I am sure others series too) with both a number and the 'hand cut" designation.

I think PSA will "only" grade hand-cut cards with a numerical grade, if "hand-cut" was the "only" way the card could be obtained.. Basically, if a factory cut was available, Hand-cuts receive no numerical grade.. I could be wrong though..

[Leon]

Originally Posted by novakjr

I think PSA will "only" grade hand-cut cards with a numerical grade, if "hand-cut" was the "only" way the card could be obtained.. Basically, if a factory cut was available, Hand-cuts receive no numerical grade.. I could be wrong though..

I understand. I am only trying to give a solution rather than just griping and saying "what if" and " now what " etc......

If this comes out factually that it was cut from a sheet, regardless if the others from the series were or were not, it would technically be correct to have hand cut on the label. Most of us in the hobby want transparency and this would potentially do it. Just having a fun debate guys.

[barrysloate]

Leon- keep in mind that strip cards were issued in panels that were meant to be cut by kids at the time of issue. Hand cutting a strip card is a natural process, and that may be why the TPG accept them and grade them.

T206's were not issued that way. They were precut in the factory. The only possible explanation for a handcut T206 is that a factory worker in 1910 brought a sheet home for his kid, who cut it up back then. And even in that scenario a TPG probably would hesitate to give such a card a numerical grade.

This T206 Wagner is different. Geez, every card that has been carefully trimmed by a card doctor looks like an 8, that's the whole reason they're trimmed. But they end up in AUTH holders (except for the ones they miss).

The T206 Wagner is nothing more than an AUTH card, although I agree it's the best looking AUTH in the hobby.

Edited to add while I was typing David said pretty much the same thing.

[CW]

I'll post my opinion before reading this thread, so it's not skewed by others (sorry if it just repeats what others have said)... I voted no because it would be preferential treatment. No other T206 carries such a label or grade. I'm not sure if I even like this labeling method (ie. "hand cut" along with a numerical grade) used on strip cards, but I can at least see why that's what PSA chooses to do with those cards. Either way, T206's are not strip cards. The only legit solution for our hobby's "Mona Lisa" is, unfortunately, either raw or in a PSA/SGC "Authentic" holder.

It's strange and ironic to think that, in a hobby where alterations are very much frowned upon as a whole, our most popular and expensive card in the hobby is, in fact, altered.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by calvindog

At this point what's the difference what is on the slab? Everyone knows (or will soon know) exactly what occurred to the card. It's not like it will somehow slip through the cracks at a TPG and be given a numerical grade.

I'm looking forward to the details, like if it was cut from the sheet, who else was on the sheet, etc.-I want details !!!!

I voted no, for the same reasons as everyone else.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

The implications of this would be that collectors with full-production-run uncut sheets should then be able to cut up the sheets and have the cards receive numerical grades (with appropriate designations on the slab).

Further implications would be that hand-cut factory issues (e.g., T210s that exhibit wavy borders) should receive numerical grades (with appropriate designation on the slab), as should all undersized cards that are not suspected of being trimmed (designation on slab to say to effect "factory-issued undersized card").

In raising these issues, I'm not saying all or any of this would be a bad thing, only that I don't see how one could make an exception for only the "8" Wagner.

Correct me if I am wrong, But my understanding is there are no known
uncut sheets. If someone did come across one they would be crazy to
cut it up,That would decrease the value significantly compared to what
they would get for the individual cards.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

At this point what's the difference what is on the slab?

So it would be technically correct. If I had 500 million dollars and bought it for 3M I could see me wanting it to be correct. But that is just me. I could also see me saying, well, this IS an exception as we don't know of any other T206s like it, verified to be cut from a sheet, so it deserves both a grade and "hand cut". Again, just giving other options here instead of going with the status quo.

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by christopher.herman

Agreed. A trimmed/hand cut/machine cut T206 (after the original factory cut) is Auth, no matter how nicely it presents or who the player is. PSA is at best negligent here or at worst complicit in fraud.

Chris.

X2

[alanu]

If the gretzky wagner just showed up on the market raw and no one knew the history of the card, I wonder what type of grade it would get from SGC or PSA.

[drc]

'Handcut PSA8' is an oxymoron, but it would communicate the meaning. Give the just, as it were.

Maybe they should just remove any grade and say "The Gretzy Wagner.' Maybe at this point, it's so famous it's 'beyond grading.'

Maybe the judge will sentence the card to five years a Pro holder.

[travrosty]

i voted no. cut it even more and try to resubmit for an 8.5 (handcut) then? how many hand cuts do you get?

[drc]

All this legal stuff that is going on may just add the card's fame and celebrity. It's world's record sales vale may just keep chugging along.

I mean when people found out the Mona Lisa was really Leonardo da Vinci in drag, it's value still remained high.

When they found out the John Hancock on the Declaration of Independence was a rubber stamp and he was vacationing in Jamaica at the time, and the other signatures were later traced over in sharpie, it still remand a priceless piece of Americana.

[Leon]

These are all fair comments so far. I appreciate everyone's point of view. It was just a thought .

[Vintageclout]

I support Leon's idea as a somewhat "ALTERNATIVE" solution to this conundrum, especially since this "Card" represents the cornerstone of our hobby. As "Calvindog" correctly stated, virtually every hobbyst knows the true history of the PSA 8 Wagner. Regardless of any upcoming legal testimony, no "quick fix" will ever reverse the card's absolute origin. However, I do feel Leon's suggestion merits serious attention only due to the fact that the PSA 8 Wagner is NOT your everyday card, with its singular status possibly worthy of a TPG exception. With that said, EVERY response on this post can certainly be justfied as a correct approach.

Best Regards,
Joe T.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Correct me if I am wrong, But my understanding is there are no known
uncut sheets. If someone did come across one they would be crazy to
cut it up,That would decrease the value significantly compared to what
they would get for the individual cards.

I agree there are no known uncut T206 sheets. The point I was making pertains to uncut sheets of any issue, many of which are known to exist.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by alanu

If the gretzky wagner just showed up on the market raw and no one knew the history of the card, I wonder what type of grade it would get from SGC or PSA.

I would be shocked if it received anything other than an "A". And that is the thing that to me has always been the most perplexing about this whole saga. While it is all well and good that Mastro purportedly is coming clean about what he did to the card, that admission is not necessary to know the card has been altered. Just look at it close up. It exhibits every tell-tale sign of trimming (to an experienced grader) that it is preposterous to believe it could receive a numerical grade if submitted raw. I remember vividly walking to Sotheby's to attend the Copeland sale when the rumors where rampant that the card was trimmed. I remember telling the person I was with at the time that IMO one could see the trim by looking at the blowup in the catalog.

[philliesphan]

PSA and SGC grade Zee-Nuts, RedMans and Hires cards without the coupons / tabs attached, and that is the same thing as hand cut to me.

[travrosty]

this card doesnt need to be saved. the second best wagner should move into #1 place now. that is the card we should worship as the cornerstone of the hobby.

what's wrong with that? nothing. psa doesnt need help saving themselves from the situation they are in by lessening the effect of their 8 misgrade by making it an 8 qualifier grade instead of dropping it to zero where egg will be on face. if tons of people could see this card was trimmed for years, then why couldn't psa when they graded it?

the hobby is not going to fall apart because this card is A instead of an 8.

next in line should just take his place as first. that's the fair solution. why should that card get short shrift? it shouldn't. It played by the rules and it should have been number one all along, and justice should put it at first where it belongs. And I dont even know where it resides or if a card grading company has graded it. It's just the right thing to do.

[HRBAKER]

A non-issue to me anyway, don't most all of us regard it as an "A" anyway. Makes no difference what the slab says and the fact that is has been altered/hand cut doesn't seem to matter to the litany of folks who continue to pay more for it.

[Ladder7]

Would be a crafty tactic for PSA. Save face, a refund (in theory) and create another scale bumpsters of A strips may resubmit for. Ca-chiiing


Personally, He had a great run. But it's now over for old' Wags.l

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

Would be a crafty tactic for PSA. Save face, a refund (in theory) and create another scale bumpsters of A strips may resubmit for. Ca-chiiing


Personally, He had a great run. But it's now over for old' Wags.l

agreed, a solution for who? psa?

trim any oversized wagner to make the corners sharper and then claim it came from a sheet and was hand cut, and get a higher grade with a hand cut qualifier. they should just stick to giving a grade to non trimmed cards and bump this out of there back to A where it belongs even if it means eating crow.

[William Todd]

I agree with what Barry and Leon have said as well as many others. The interesting aside from all of this is that many higher graded cards have been trimmed and sit in high grade holders, like the Wagner. It should send questions throughout the graded card industry. As one who has collected since the late 80's and now is looking for original cards, the quest brings added challenges.

Like the Wagner, the top graded altered cards still carry a high premium. Let the buyer beware.

[Matthew H]

Maybe the next time it's sold the AH can describe it as "a nice collector grade example"

[kkkkandp]

"All this legal stuff that is going on may just add the card's fame and celebrity. It's world's record sales vale may just keep chugging along."

If you put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig. The card was altered in a manner to deceive. It belongs in a "A" holder.

That having been said, it is still a damned pretty pig....um, card. Its subject, eye appeal and notoriety may still result in it bringing a higher price than an altered card warrants the next time it sells, but I think its days as a million-dollar card are behind it.

[oldjudge]

Kevin--I would be happy to take the other side of that bet

Could someone educate me on this. Did Mastro but a strip of cards, or the Wagner card already cut from a strip? If it is the latter, did he simply trim a trimmed card? If the former, wasn't he trimming a card from an already trimmed strip? Either way, wasn't he, in a way, shooting a corpse?

[travrosty]

it was evidently from a sheet, hand cut, but oversized and wavy edges. as legend goes, he trimmed it down further to straight edges.

[Matthew H]

Jay, there's a pic somewhere of the card before the last trim... It was more obviously hand cut before, in my opinion.

I still think it will sell for 7 figures. It seems like it's been in the hands of investors, not really any collectors, for the last 20 years.

[travrosty]

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_62.html


you can see it here, looks like bulge at upper right and also, wavy in other places.

[mark evans]

The card should be graded "Authentic." But, consistent with current practice (for example, the Lionel Carter collection), it should be further characterized. Most appropriate is the "Mastro Wagner."

Looking forward to dinner....

[Danny Smith]

My opinion is that it doesnt matter how it grades now for future buyers. It is the most famous card in the world and this publicity will only make it more famous/notorious, which ultimately will increase it's "value" (ie what someone will pay for it).

[terjung]

I'm not really sure what the "news" is with this card. Why is it being viewed any differently now than before? I realize why it is being discussed now, but has a single person's viewpoint on the card changed over what they thought about it last month? Should it be in an authentic slab? All indications point to yes. Will it ever be? I sincerely doubt it.

It is an interesting corollary to the main case, but really is, at most, just an exhibit, isn't it? PSA isn't named as a defendent in the case, are they?

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Regardless of what grade, or trim status, or proof sheet, whatever, this card transcends all of that. It stands alone, as THE most famous individual copy of the THE most famous card EVER made.. No matter what the status of the slab on this card, it's value will hold, and continue to rise in value with each transaction.. The current owner paid 2.8 million, and I guarantee it does not leave his ownership for less than that.

PSA 8, PSA 8(hand cut), PSA authentic trimmed, whatever, are all irrelevant here...As long as McNall/Gretzky remains on the slab, the card's history will always be available for all to see.. And that's exactly what people will pay for, it's history.

I think irrelevancy should be an option on this poll.

Couldn't have said it better myself, David, although I made a stab at it in another related thread. And you know what, its status, and how it got it, does not hurt the hobby at all!

You guys are always s-o-o-o-o o interesting!

Larry

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

At this point what's the difference what is on the slab? Everyone knows (or will soon know) exactly what occurred to the card. It's not like it will somehow slip through the cracks at a TPG and be given a numerical grade.

I agree completely.

The slab could say 1976 Donruss Felipe Alou on it, and it's still "the" card.

Doug

[Rickyy]

Whatever the true nature/origin of this card...it shouldn't be treated no different just because its a T206 Wagner....


Ricky Y

[drc]

The stated condition on the label should not be based on qualities other than the condition of the card. The fame or value of the card should be neither here nor there. If the stated condition is based on the fame, value or similar such stuff, the grading system could be defined as corrupt-- as well as dishonest.

Having said that, there are honest variations in grades names. A card can be labelled either Nmt OC or Vg. Another can be labeled authentic or poor. And the card owner often gets the choice of which term goes on the label. So some linguistic creativity and personal taste is allowed in the labeling system and most hobbyists see it as above board. Some things can be described in more than one way.

[barrysloate]

In this discussion a number of posters have said it wouldn't matter if the label were changed to AUTH, because every previous buyer had to know the card was trimmed, and still paid a record price for it. But I don't think that's entirely accurate.

I believe every previous buyer heard rumors that it was trimmed, and very easily could have decided that the rumors might not be true and that the card was good until proven otherwise.

Now the status of the card may change from "rumored" to "confirmed." Might that change people's perception and dissuade future buyers from setting the next world record?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

In this discussion a number of posters have said it wouldn't matter if the label were changed to AUTH, because every previous buyer had to know the card was trimmed, and still paid a record price for it. But I don't think that's entirely accurate.

I believe every previous buyer heard rumors that it was trimmed, and very easily could have decided that the rumors might not be true and that the card was good until proven otherwise.

Now the status of the card may change from "rumored" to "confirmed." Might that change people's perception and dissuade future buyers from setting the next world record?

If in fact reholding the card as an "A" does not materially impact the value of the card, that would be unprecedented. A's typically sell for a small percentage of 8's and while the notoriety of the card arguably will bump the price somewhat, it's hard to fathom the card selling for anything close to what it has in the past.

Several years ago the sister card to this Wagner, the Plank that was purportedly cut from the same sheet, sold for a small fraction of what it would have sold for had it been graded based on its appearance (i.e, an 8). It was a gorgeous card with colors that were noticeably stronger than the colors on most other Planks. At the time of the sale I suspect the great majority of potential bidders knew its history. Yet the grade on the holder won out.

The bigger issue, though, has nothing to do with what the Wagner would sell for if it is reholdered. As Barry noted, this Wagner has been the signature card of the hobby. Its currrent grade well symbolizes the fraud inherent iin our hobby. It's hypocrtitcal to urge the feds to bring indictments and act to clean up the hobby if the hobbyists themselves do not do their part. Anything other than insisting that this card be reholdered to reflect what in fact it is and putting pressure on all involved to see that to fruition would only bring more justified scorn on the hobby.

[kkkkandp]

Jay:

I think part of the reason "The" Wagner continued to set record prices was because each new owner held out hope that the rumors were, in fact, rumors and they would actually be acquiring the finest known, unaltered Wagner in the world.

If it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this card has been altered, it doesn't diminish its notoriety, but it does diminish its actual technical grade (for what that is worth). To those who buy something for the sake of saying they own the thing that is acknowledged by everyone as being the best (subjective valuation, I know) something in the world, it will have lost some of that edge.

I probably phrased my previous price comment poorly. It's still beautiful, it's still collectible, and it's still way out of my price range, but I don't think the next owner will raise the price bar on it yet again.

Kevin

[brass_rat]

*IF* the card is reholdered, I sure hope that PSA slabs the original PSA 8 label and auctions it off. Maybe they would give first auction house dibs to some select individuals.



Steve

[travrosty]

The bigger issue, though, has nothing to do with what the Wagner would sell for if it is reholdered. As Barry noted, this Wagner has been the signature card of the hobby. Its currrent grade well symbolizes the fraud inherent iin our hobby. It's hypocrtitcal to urge the feds to bring indictments and act to clean up the hobby if the hobbyists themselves do not do their part. Anything other than insisting that this card be reholdered to reflect what in fact it is and putting pressure on all involved to see that to fruition would only bring more justified scorn on the hobby.



Corey, right on, the hobby has to insist every card and collector and hobbyist and grading standard is the same for everybody, every card, every time.

If we don't then we are saying that this collector, this card, this grade, in this instance, gets a pass, gets preferential treatment, and that is dangerous precedent.

It allows for more of it in the future, and like in autographs, we have been fighting this type of thing for years and years and it is the apathy of some who wish the status quo to continue or don't care one way or another that makes it harder and more drawn out to insist on reform so the hobby can show everyone that it has integrity.

if you are a guy getting a '70 reggie jackson 2nd year card graded, or a honus wagner t206, you are going to get the same service under the same standard and one card isn't worthy of fudging the numbers more than another.

but if billy crystal says, "this card is maaaaaavelous" so let's not insist it get graded according to the rules and standards, then it's our own fault and it will just take longer for reforms to come about.

autographs are a mess because of this and i would hope cards take the lead in insisting on integrity and labeling things an A, when they are an A, but maybe I am wrong. Maybe we get blinded by this one card so much we fall all over ourselves and we don't want the card to fall from grace. It needs to though before we can objectively make things better. It was trimmed.

The formally 2nd best condition card is now first place, and lets find out which one it is and crown that one the king. This one was a false claimant to the throne.