Talking RAMLY's....which are the toughest T204 cards ?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

An artistically appealing set, it was produced in 1909. It has always been a mystery to many, that the major stars (Cobb,
Lajoie, Mathewson, Wagner, Young, etc.) were not portrayed in the T204's. At least, Walter Johnson and Eddie Plank are
in it. I attribute this strange player representation (or lack of it) to the theory that I've referred to in a prior thread as the
"American Caramel Company vs American Tobacco Company wars".
Produced in Boston, the T204 cards depict many Boston Subjects....approx. 25% of the cards in this set are Eastern Mass-
achusetts BB team related. However, a further mystery is that Tris Speaker was not included.
This it is the only (major) 20th Century set that I have not completed. But, I'm content on collecting a sub-set of just all
the Boston subjects.

Subject........Boston (League)

Frank Arrelanes AL
Jim Ball NL
Johnny Bates NL
Frank Bowerman NL
Fred Burchell AL
Jesse Burkett (Manager, Worcester Club)
Bill Carrigan AL
Charles Chech AL
Eddie Cicotte AL
Pat Donahue AL (Identified as Jiggs in SCD Stand. Catalog....Pat is Jiggs' bro.)
Gus Dorner NL
George Ferguson NL
Peaches Graham NL
Doc Gessler AL
Vive Lindaman NL
Harry Lord AL
Amby McConnell AL
Cy Morgan AL
Tim Murnane (Prez. New England League)
Harry Niles AL
Claude Ritchey NL
Charlie Smith (traded to Boston AL in 1909)
Tubby Spencer AL
Jake Stahl AL
Bill Sweeney NL
Heine Wagner AL

So, how about a substantive discussion here on the various aspects of this set. Let's hear from some of you Net54 experts.

Show and tell us about your T204's; and, which cards are the really tough ones to find....besides Burkett ?

Also, can someone share their expertise with us regarding the backs of the T204's ? For instance, can all the Subjects be
found with the different backs ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Sean BH

Ted,
I have this one (Thanks Barry); it shows him with Minneapolis, but he played most of his career with Boston.

Not sure how hard it is to find, it took me a while.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hi Sean- and it will go out shortly.

The hardest cards in the set are the square Ramlys, without question.

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

I don't think that there are any "rare" cards in the 121, although all 121 cards are probably fewer in number that a T206 Wagner. The 6 cards with square borders (Anderson, Bancroft, Bransfield, Burkett, Dineen & Moran) all come with true blank backs. There are other players that sometimes have blank backs, but I am quite sure that it is a result of paper delamination as they are always on thin stock. I am quite sure that these 6 cards were test printed with square and oval borders and the oval borders were the winner. The square borders have very low pops (Anderson 3 known). All Square border cards also come with TTT backs on the oval cards. I am quite sure that TTT backs are only possible on either 55 or 66 cards. (5 rows of 11 or 6 rows of 11). Some years back a sheet was cut Graded by SGC (8's, 9's &10's). SGC now regrets grading these about 40 cards. These were auctioned by Mastro abut 10 years ago. I have not been able to find out the size of the sheet and sometime soon hope to see if Bill can recall the size of the sheet.

I think the cards were either printed on two 66 card sheets (6x11) with one row on one sheet double printed. Or on 1 sheet of 121 (11x11). The single sheet does not explain why TTT backs can not be found on approximately half of the subjects.

At one time I had about 700 Ramlys with 5 complete sets (one set shy a Johnson) trying to get a really nice set. Now I have a really nice set and as many Blank backs, TTT backs as possible. The 38 cards that were in REA's last auction came from a old guy (older that me by 15+ years). He contacted Bill Cornell, who contacted me and I saw the cards at his house about 30 miles North of Miami. He told me that his father who was born in 1895 had collected them. They were in a cigar box. I was able to get from Rob before the auction a Thomas card for Bob Craik that was his last card to complete the set. Bill was able to get a 3 cards lot that he wanted and Ray (card owner) got about $30,000 to $35,000. There were some TTT's a Johnson and some HOF'ers. There are some old threads on Ramlys and backs.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks very much....your post is exactly the kind of discussion I am looking for, and why I initiated
this thread. I hope we can get more Net54er's "talking Ramly's" here.

I have several questions for you, but right now I have to run....so, here is one....did I correctly list
all the Boston related cards in this set ?
I'm still in the process of collecting them, so I am not 100% certain of my list.

Thanks again,

TED Z

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Posted By: Todd C

I think I have 4 total...here are two of them




edited scan size

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Posted By: john/z28jd

If what Peter says about t204 population is true,and I have no reason to doubt someone who collects them as extensively as he does,then putting a set together is almost near impossible without a large find. Between the people who have sets already,team collectors and people who just want the Burkett,Johnson or I even know a few people who were looking for just Murname for example,you'd have a real hard time putting that set together without spending a fortune now. Especially if you want to put it together quickly. Maybe you dont read much on the board because of how difficult it is to put together and those who are trying just dont want to draw attention

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Posted By: judson hamlin

The scan above ^ has Harry Howell's photo with Powell's name; does Howell have Powell's photo?

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Never realized Powell was Howell. Ow... ell.

The McIntyre and Donahue naming problems were corrected recently by SGC (they persist in the SCD catalog). They also removed the square border Howard from their list. I'm not sure why that card was thought to exist, but it doesn't.

I don't think there are any T204's that are appreciably more difficult. I still need 6, but I don't think they're necessarily more scarce than other Ramlys. Some others that get cited as 'tough' are Paskert, McConnell (but I keep coming across those...), Thomas, and Merkle. I'm skeptical, mostly.

Frank Bancroft is the truly weird inclusion in this set. He was the Cincinnati mgr in 1902 and spent most of his other decades in baseball on the financial end of things. But he was from Worcester, MA, home of the T204 factory - that was his ticket into the set.

The consignor that sold the cards in the recent REA told me he was using the proceeds to buy a riding mower he'd been looking at. And he like baseball card collectors a lot now.


Bill

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Posted By: leon

Thanks for chiming in....where is Scott B when you need him anyway, slacker>..... I got this square frame from him about 3-4 yrs ago as I went in on a large (5-6)lot of them with him...and of course only wanted one...He was almost scared to tell me my cost was going to be about 1/2-1/3 of what they go for now ......Great looking set...For some reason I think I have seen less Planks than many other HOF'ers....Maybe everyone hangs onto them longer??

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Posted By: Jp

Nice cards Leon! i dont own any T204 but have been looking for an Arellanes example. If anyone has one for they want to part with please shoot me an email.

my collection: http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/

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Posted By: J Levine

In searching for Phillies I have seen 2 (possibly three but I think it was the same card resold in a holder) square bordered Bransfield Ramlys and 4 regular Bransfields. They are very tough cards in general. I do own one (Kargar). Tough set.

Joshua

PS Still looking for a low grade Bransfield to add to the Phillies collection.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

There is a Boston connection to the square frames, is there not?

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Posted By: Bill Todd

Hey, Ted,

Have you ever seen an Unglaub/Boston? I have him with Washington (thanks, Neal), where the name is shown as "Unclane."

Bob was traded from the Sox to the Senators in the middle of the 1908 season, so I can see them having him with a team correction, but not with them screwing up his name at the same time.

And you were wondering at the over-representation of Boston players; there are an awful lot of Washington players for such a bad team (7th in '08, last in '07 and '09), as well:
Blankenship
Clymer
Freeman
Johnson
Milan
Smith
Street
Unglaub ("Unclane")

BTW, are there any front variations within the set? Team changes, name corrections, etc.

Bill

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Posted By: Anonymous

Don't forget Ganley, Washington player.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

I like this one a lot:

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

I like this one a lot:

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I do not have a Unglaub....and, I thought since he was the Catcher for Boston when the T204 set was being designed in 1908,
that he would be depicted with the Boston AL team. I guess this tells us that the T204's were on the drawingboard somewhat
later than I thought. Perhaps, in the Fall of 1908.

Thanks,
TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for your insights into these cards. I just accessed your....T207.com....site and read your info on the T204 set.
Very informative, I should have read it first before posting this thread, as it answered all the questions I had on these
cards.

TED Z

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Glad you found it useful, Ted. Many hours of obsessive behavior have gone into that website .

BTW, are there any front variations within the set? Team changes, name corrections, etc.?

No.

I haven't found Bransfield to be scarcer than any others. I have 2, one with a TTT back.



Bill

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Posted By: Alan

I saw Bill's web site too. Great images of all the cards. Is the Barney Pelty (the lone Jewish player in the set) easy to obtain ? Is it one of the more common ones ?

Thanks.
Alan

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Posted By: Ken Wirt

My only one. Never posted it before, so...

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Alan - Pelty's no scarcer than any other T204, but he commands 3x-5x the price of a common in the same condition, as does Cicotte. I think Barney is the only Jewish player in the set.

Murnane is another interesting character - player as early as 1872, part-owner, sportswriter, president of the NE League. The Naugatuck, CT library has a cool profile of him with a great looking cabinet: http://www.biblio.org/whittemore/murnane.htm.


Bill

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Posted By: Jimmy

In my ten years of buying, selling and collecting T204 cards - I have only come across one square frame and one TTT back. We all know how rare they can be

Jimmy

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Posted By: Bill Todd

Thanks. I left off Conroy, Kahoe, and Shipke, too. Jeez. An even dozen for a stink-em-up team (Johnson excepted, of course).

Bill

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

If memory serves correct, early death Joe Cassidy was in this set. Would somebody please post this card?

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

"Early Death Joe Cassidy" is the worst nickname ever.....

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

No, "The Wild Elk of the Wasatch" is the worst nickname. If you're NOT joking, then please understand that Cassidy died while still in his 20's. It's not his nickname.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

I knew I should have inserted a smiley

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

"(Johnson excepted, of course)"

Of course, when this set was being designed Walter Johnson had not yet gotten into his stride.

TED Z

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

This is bugging me now - who's Howell and who's Powell?



The image on the Baseball Library site of Harry Howell below looks almost certainly like the same guy on the T204 Powell card. So who's shown on the T204 Howell card? The uniform looks like either NY NL or Washington, not StL AL. I can't find a Jack Powell photo. Any ideas?




Bill

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

The one shown in the t204 set as Powell is Harry Howell...here is his t206 portrait
http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-1911-T206-Harry-Howell-Portrait-SGC-50-4_W0QQitemZ180242700344QQihZ008QQcategoryZ57993QQr dZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q 2em118Q2el1247

And this is Jack Powells last card produced (1914 Zeenut) and he looks quite a bit like the guy pictured as Howell in the t204 set.



It appears that the Ramly people got the photos switched on those two.
-Rhett

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Here is the recently sold Powell Breish-Williams (courtesy of REA site)


Definately looks to be the guy labeled as "Howell" so T204 cards have the pictures switched (or names depending on how you look at it.)
-Rhett

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Thanks, Rhett - that solves that short-lived mystery. And thanks to Judson for pointing it out.


Bill

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

This is really great stuff, guys.

This is what this Forum is really all about.

Thanks,
TED Z

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Does anyone know if Reilly is one of the players known with a T.T.T back?

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

How many players are known with a TTT back? And what percentage of all Ramley's have TTT backs? What percentage of Ramley's are square?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Roughly 5% square- 6 out of 121.

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

To my knowledge he is not know with a TTT back.