Using Trade At Card Shows

[Snowman]

I think part of the disconnect is that the leverage dealers have over buyers in today's market is quite a bit different than it was back in the 80s, 90s, and even the 2000s. Back then, if you wanted to sell your cards, you either had to find a friend to sell it to or take it to your local card shop/show and take whatever you could get for it. They had a lot of leverage over you. They knew they could resell it for X, so they gave you some significantly lower percentage of its value in order to turn a profit. It's a business after all. But in today's market, collectors no longer need dealers or card shops to buy their cards. The only thing a dealer offers them today by buying their card is the convenience of not having to deal with eBay or a consignment company. We don't "need" a dealer to buy our cards nowadays, so that leverage is lost. But most of the dealers I've encountered don't acknowledge this. It's like they still think they have power over the market/buyers because they've somehow "earned" it with their decades of experience. I find most (not all) card shop owners that I've encountered to be extremely arrogant.

The only leverage they have now, in the case of a trade, comes from them having a particular card that you want, not from them being in the position of being a dealer. Sure, some people are desperate enough to acquire a particular card that they're willing to take a loss on their trade in value to get it, but it's not because the person on the other end of the transaction is a dealer, but rather because they have what the other person wants. I think most trades at shows nowadays probably occurs between collectors away from the tables. Trade night is a big deal at the larger shows.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think part of the disconnect is that the leverage dealers have over buyers in today's market is quite a bit different than it was back in the 80s, 90s, and even the 2000s. Back then, if you wanted to sell your cards, you either had to find a friend to sell it to or take it to your local card shop/show and take whatever you could get for it. They had a lot of leverage over you. They knew they could resell it for X, so they gave you some significantly lower percentage of its value in order to turn a profit. It's a business after all. But in today's market, collectors no longer need dealers or card shops to buy their cards. The only thing a dealer offers them today by buying their card is the convenience of not having to deal with eBay or a consignment company. We don't "need" a dealer to buy our cards nowadays, so that leverage is lost. But most of the dealers I've encountered don't acknowledge this. It's like they still think they have power over the market/buyers because they've somehow "earned" it with their decades of experience. I find most (not all) card shop owners that I've encountered to be extremely arrogant.

The only leverage they have now, in the case of a trade, comes from them having a particular card that you want, not from them being in the position of being a dealer. Sure, some people are desperate enough to acquire a particular card that they're willing to take a loss on their trade in value to get it, but it's not because the person on the other end of the transaction is a dealer, but rather because they have what the other person wants. I think most trades at shows nowadays probably occurs between collectors away from the tables. Trade night is a big deal at the larger shows.

This reminds me of my last couple Nationals. I was buying a card from a dealer and asked if he was interested in taking partial trade. He just said flat out no. When I got home I listed the card on BST and it sold within a few hours for more than what I would have taken from him since he was a dealer.

In another case I had a card that a dealer wanted and he had something I was interested in, but he decided to low ball me on my card so I just walked away and sold it on eBay for a fair price.

I set up at shows for 30 years. I don't understand the attitudes of many dealers as pointed out above. I would never turn down a trade before seeing what the collector had. Doing trade or cash trade deals offers the dealer an opportunity for more profit. You make a profit off the card you are trading away and then you make a profit off the new card you receive.

In the Cobb vs Jackson trade, both are easily sellable cards. The Cobb is more desirable, but no dealer should turn down the Jackson at the appropriate price. As a dealer are you in business to make money or are you just a collector disguised as a dealer looking to have the best display?

[Tony Gordon]

I am one of those National dealers that says "no" as soon as you ask me for a trade. With booth fee, employees, hotel, food, and gas, I'm deep in the hole long before the show even starts. I don't need cards to sell on eBay or shows down the line, I have a huge inventory. If it is a post-war card, I always have five to 10 of these cards anyone offers to trade. I need cash to cover my expenses. I need cash at the end of the show to determine whether it was a successful show and whether it was worth my time. I also need cash for all the deals I have lined up after the show.

In addition, in my 40 years of setting up at shows I can only recall maybe two occasions where the trade was worth my while. Usually someone will offer me four or five 1963 or 1964 Topps baseball league leaders cards in exchange for my 1963 Mantle. I mean, nine times out of 10, it is just a horrible offer.

I just don't bother any more, especially at the National, where I will probably lose a paying customer while wasting my time with someone offering a trade. You've got just a short time to catch the attention of the paying customer who will move on to the next table if you're too busy or seemingly ignoring them.

On the rare occasions I do engage in a trade, I have to consider the amount of money I have into the card and how much money I foresee earning on the eventual sale of the new card I obtain in the trade. It just rarely, if ever, works out in my favor.

Here is my advice for someone who believes they are offering something really good for trade: don't ask the dealer if he trades. The word "trade" is a red flag for dealers. Instead, show the dealer the card before saying anything and ask him if he is interested. If you have something good, not league leader cards, then the dealer will work something out with you.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Tony Gordon

I am one of those National dealers that says "no" as soon as you ask me for a trade. With booth fee, employees, hotel, food, and gas, I'm deep in the hole long before the show even starts. I don't need cards to sell on eBay or shows down the line, I have a huge inventory. If it is a post-war card, I always have five to 10 of these cards anyone offers to trade. I need cash to cover my expenses. I need cash at the end of the show to determine whether it was a successful show and whether it was worth my time. I also need cash for all the deals I have lined up after the show.

In addition, in my 40 years of setting up at shows I can only recall maybe two occasions where the trade was worth my while. Usually someone will offer me four or five 1963 or 1964 Topps baseball league leaders cards in exchange for my 1963 Mantle. I mean, nine times out of 10, it is just a horrible offer.

I just don't bother any more, especially at the National, where I will probably lose a paying customer while wasting my time with someone offering a trade. You've got just a short time to catch the attention of the paying customer who will move on to the next table if you're too busy or seemingly ignoring them.

On the rare occasions I do engage in a trade, I have to consider the amount of money I have into the card and how much money I foresee earning on the eventual sale of the new card I obtain in the trade. It just rarely, if ever, works out in my favor.

Here is my advice for someone who believes they are offering something really good for trade: don't ask the dealer if he trades. The word "trade" is a red flag for dealers. Instead, show the dealer the card before saying anything and ask him if he is interested. If you have something good, not league leader cards, then the dealer will work something out with you.

Nice to hear information on this subject from a National dealer.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Tony Gordon

I am one of those National dealers that says "no" as soon as you ask me for a trade. With booth fee, employees, hotel, food, and gas, I'm deep in the hole long before the show even starts. I don't need cards to sell on eBay or shows down the line, I have a huge inventory. If it is a post-war card, I always have five to 10 of these cards anyone offers to trade. I need cash to cover my expenses. I need cash at the end of the show to determine whether it was a successful show and whether it was worth my time. I also need cash for all the deals I have lined up after the show.

In addition, in my 40 years of setting up at shows I can only recall maybe two occasions where the trade was worth my while. Usually someone will offer me four or five 1963 or 1964 Topps baseball league leaders cards in exchange for my 1963 Mantle. I mean, nine times out of 10, it is just a horrible offer.

I just don't bother any more, especially at the National, where I will probably lose a paying customer while wasting my time with someone offering a trade. You've got just a short time to catch the attention of the paying customer who will move on to the next table if you're too busy or seemingly ignoring them.

On the rare occasions I do engage in a trade, I have to consider the amount of money I have into the card and how much money I foresee earning on the eventual sale of the new card I obtain in the trade. It just rarely, if ever, works out in my favor.

Here is my advice for someone who believes they are offering something really good for trade: don't ask the dealer if he trades. The word "trade" is a red flag for dealers. Instead, show the dealer the card before saying anything and ask him if he is interested. If you have something good, not league leader cards, then the dealer will work something out with you.

Very Good Advise and makes sense with all the upfront costs with the event and the need to focus on paying customers that the person wanting the trade may not realize

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Tony Gordon

I am one of those National dealers that says "no" as soon as you ask me for a trade. With booth fee, employees, hotel, food, and gas, I'm deep in the hole long before the show even starts. I don't need cards to sell on eBay or shows down the line, I have a huge inventory. If it is a post-war card, I always have five to 10 of these cards anyone offers to trade. I need cash to cover my expenses. I need cash at the end of the show to determine whether it was a successful show and whether it was worth my time. I also need cash for all the deals I have lined up after the show.

In addition, in my 40 years of setting up at shows I can only recall maybe two occasions where the trade was worth my while. Usually someone will offer me four or five 1963 or 1964 Topps baseball league leaders cards in exchange for my 1963 Mantle. I mean, nine times out of 10, it is just a horrible offer.

I just don't bother any more, especially at the National, where I will probably lose a paying customer while wasting my time with someone offering a trade. You've got just a short time to catch the attention of the paying customer who will move on to the next table if you're too busy or seemingly ignoring them.

On the rare occasions I do engage in a trade, I have to consider the amount of money I have into the card and how much money I foresee earning on the eventual sale of the new card I obtain in the trade. It just rarely, if ever, works out in my favor.

Here is my advice for someone who believes they are offering something really good for trade: don't ask the dealer if he trades. The word "trade" is a red flag for dealers. Instead, show the dealer the card before saying anything and ask him if he is interested. If you have something good, not league leader cards, then the dealer will work something out with you.

Love it! Love getting the perspective from the other side of the table. Collectors don't want to hear this but it's the reality of the situation, lots of additional costs involved for the dealer.

[ClementeFanOh]

To Tony Gordon, et al-

I am amazed (but not surprised) by your attitude. A potential customer-
someone who could BUY from you in addition to asking to trade- is a
"waste of time"? Hmmm...think I found a problem. Judging a card(s)
before you have even seen it, and telling the holder which words to use
(don't use the word "trade"?) Think I found a second problem...

Bottom line is that offering to trade is a common practice at shows and on
sites like this one. The holder of the cards doesn't have ESP and, frankly,
does not care about a seller's expense list. All the collector knows is to ask
the dealer if they trade. It's not an insult, in my case it's not an attempt to
defraud the dealer, and it certainly isn't a "waste of time" merely to ask a
simple question that could benefit the dealer(!!). I buy a lot of cards and
trade as well, and one thing I've learned for sure is this: a dealer who
thinks he can dictate every detail to a person he depends on for business- a
potential customer- is in for a rude awakening. There's too much
competition for that approach. I am reminded of the Caddyshack line,
"Lighten up, Francis". Sheesh.

Looks like I picked the wrong time to check net54 Trent King

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

I am reminded of the Caddyshack line,
"Lighten up, Francis". Sheesh.

Looks like I picked the wrong time to check net54 Trent King

That's from Stripes, not Caddyshack.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by jayshum

That's from Stripes, not Caddyshack.

I thought it was from Airplane.

[Tony Gordon]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

To Tony Gordon, et al-

I am amazed (but not surprised) by your attitude. A potential customer-
someone who could BUY from you in addition to asking to trade- is a
"waste of time"? Hmmm...think I found a problem. Judging a card(s)
before you have even seen it, and telling the holder which words to use
(don't use the word "trade"?) Think I found a second problem...

My attitude is based on my experience. I set up at card shows most every weekend and in my experience the folks that want to trade are almost never good customers. The good customers are the ones that offer cash, not trade. I have a large following at my local shows, no shortage of customers. Thankfully success as a dealer is not even remotely based on whether the dealer accepts trade or not. In my 40 years of setting up at card shows, I found that success comes from inventory and pricing, not trades. Now, more than ever, I turn people away who offer trades and am having a banner year. You can dismiss my advice all you want but if you really want to trade and have a good item, you need to avoid the word "trade" because 9 times out of 10, in my experience, when someone asks me to trade, they are offering me five beat up and water-logged Jim Bunnings for a clean Koufax rookie. You can smell the mold on the Bunnings when they pull them out. No thanks.

[Johnny630]

My usual response when someone asks if I'm interested In trade is maybe, may I please see what you have. When shown I either consider or kindly hand them back and say I'm sorry these are nice cards but not for me. That's all.

No hard feelings it's just business. I'm much more apt to trade or trade and cash when a card has nice eye appeal/centering and is a super star, Mantle, Mays, Jackie ect. I can see both sides from Trent and Tony, as a seller I do agree with Tony that 9x's out of 10 it does not work for me.

[1954 topps]

A dealer may be more willing to trade if your offering a big card for several smaller cards but not the other way around. Say you have a Jackie Robinson and your willing to trade it for an Ed Mathews, Warren Spahn, Whitey Ford, Phil Rizzuto, Preacher Roe, and Johnny Podres. Let's say book value works out fairly close for both parties.

From the dealers perspective, it's a lot easier to sell the Jackie than the six other cards to make the same money. Chances are he can move the Jackie at the same show, but he's probably unlikely to sell all 6 of the others. So if time is money you make that deal as the dealer and take your profit to reinvest elsewhere.

Best advise, sell your cards yourself or through consignment well before a large show so you have cash. That's how you'll get yourself the best deal.

[ClementeFanOh]

1954 Topps- I agree with you on the notion that a dealer is more likely to
trade a handful of lesser value cards, for one higher value. However,
your point about selling the card before a show so "you have cash", isn't
the case (at least for me). I offer to trade if, for example, the other card
isn't in my normal wheelhouse, if the card isn't quite the grade I wanted, or
sometimes if I think the sale price is so high that negotiation won't work. There
are lots of valid reasons to trade that have nothing to do with lack of cash
(which is indeed a reason some wish to trade, I am sure Trent King

[ClementeFanOh]

Jay Shumsky- thanks for the correction. Hope my actual point got through.

Trent King

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by 1954 topps

A dealer may be more willing to trade if your offering a big card for several smaller cards but not the other way around. Say you have a Jackie Robinson and your willing to trade it for an Ed Mathews, Warren Spahn, Whitey Ford, Phil Rizzuto, Preacher Roe, and Johnny Podres. Let's say book value works out fairly close for both parties.

From the dealers perspective, it's a lot easier to sell the Jackie than the six other cards to make the same money. Chances are he can move the Jackie at the same show, but he's probably unlikely to sell all 6 of the others. So if time is money you make that deal as the dealer and take your profit to reinvest elsewhere.

Best advise, sell your cards yourself or through consignment well before a large show so you have cash. That's how you'll get yourself the best deal.

Trades like this are the main way I've had success when trading with a dealer at a show. One even told me what you are saying, that it would be easier for him to sell the one card I was offering in trade than the multiple cards I was getting from him.

While it may seem to be poor customer relations to just flat out say no to trades, I'm guessing that so many offers that are made to dealers are so clearly not worth it, that it is just easier for them to just say no from the start. The advice to show the dealer what you have first makes sense to me since they then know if they even want to entertain a trade offer later.

[rugbymarine]

Originally Posted by Tony Gordon

Here is my advice for someone who believes they are offering something really good for trade: don't ask the dealer if he trades. The word "trade" is a red flag for dealers. Instead, show the dealer the card before saying anything and ask him if he is interested. If you have something good, not league leader cards, then the dealer will work something out with you.

This is very helpful. Thank you for the perspective, Tony!

[JohnnyKilroy]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think part of the disconnect is that the leverage dealers have over buyers in today's market is quite a bit different than it was back in the 80s, 90s, and even the 2000s. Back then, if you wanted to sell your cards, you either had to find a friend to sell it to or take it to your local card shop/show and take whatever you could get for it. They had a lot of leverage over you. They knew they could resell it for X, so they gave you some significantly lower percentage of its value in order to turn a profit. It's a business after all. But in today's market, collectors no longer need dealers or card shops to buy their cards. The only thing a dealer offers them today by buying their card is the convenience of not having to deal with eBay or a consignment company. We don't "need" a dealer to buy our cards nowadays, so that leverage is lost. But most of the dealers I've encountered don't acknowledge this. It's like they still think they have power over the market/buyers because they've somehow "earned" it with their decades of experience. I find most (not all) card shop owners that I've encountered to be extremely arrogant.

The only leverage they have now, in the case of a trade, comes from them having a particular card that you want, not from them being in the position of being a dealer. Sure, some people are desperate enough to acquire a particular card that they're willing to take a loss on their trade in value to get it, but it's not because the person on the other end of the transaction is a dealer, but rather because they have what the other person wants. I think most trades at shows nowadays probably occurs between collectors away from the tables. Trade night is a big deal at the larger shows.

Jackpot. This is exactly right. So many avenues to move cards these days, the leverage is just not there. Which also goes with the other point that trading with dealers is not advantageous or preferred. Most trading I see is between people walking around. Another reason why I don’t understand the term “trade value” these days. I value a card for exactly what I could sell it for when it comes to trading for something I want. If they bump up for “trade value”, then I will too… so I don’t see the point.

[Snowman]

I don't understand how table fees, hotel fees, airfare, etc. enter someone's calculation on whether or not they would want to engage in a trade with a customer or in how much they sell a card for. I also don't understand how the amount you paid for a card would come into the equation either. Those factors have no bearing on the value of cards incoming or outgoing. The market dictates what every card is worth; buy, sell, or trade. If the amount you pay to set up at the National affects your decisions at the table with customers, perhaps you might benefit from changing your approach?

I get that your time as a dealer is valuable though. I fully understand not wanting to lose a potential customer because someone else just handed you a stack of random low-end cards to go through that he hopes to trade up for a Mickey Mantle. Clearly that's a waste of your time. But it's so easy to convey this message in way that eliminates 95% of the garbage trade offers while letting through 100% of the good ones. Just reply with something like, "I only accept trades of graded blue chip cards of all-time greats or high demand cards that are easy to sell, and I offer 70% of comps for trades". Something along those lines. I would think you wouldn't want to push away the guy who has a Gretzky RC, Aaron RC, and a 53 Mantle to trade. Most people I know who bring cards to shows are pretty selective about what they put into their backpacks or Pelican cases. They're not carrying around a case full of junk cards at big shows hoping to find a sucker. Surely there are some, but my guess is the majority of those interactions occur at the local card shops, not at the National.

I've heard a few dealers recently saying things like, "I just say no to traders" or "Don't say the word 'comps' at my booth". Then they sit there and look up how much they paid for a card before determining whether or not they'll accept someone's offer on it as if that has any relevance to the card's current value whatsoever, or they'll put 95% of their net worth into cardboard, always desperate for cash and wonder why they're struggling to profit after paying $5k in dealer fees to set up a booth at the National. Why not give yourselves more buffer room and keep a larger portion of your assets in cash so that you can take advantage of opportunities as they arrive rather than handcuffing yourself financially to your inventory?

[Tony Gordon]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't understand how table fees, hotel fees, airfare, etc. enter someone's calculation on whether or not they would want to engage in a trade with a customer or in how much they sell a card for. I also don't understand how the amount you paid for a card would come into the equation either. Those factors have no bearing on the value of cards incoming or outgoing. The market dictates what every card is worth; buy, sell, or trade. If the amount you pay to set up at the National affects your decisions at the table with customers, perhaps you might benefit from changing your approach?

I get that your time as a dealer is valuable though. I fully understand not wanting to lose a potential customer because someone else just handed you a stack of random low-end cards to go through that he hopes to trade up for a Mickey Mantle. Clearly that's a waste of your time. But it's so easy to convey this message in way that eliminates 95% of the garbage trade offers while letting through 100% of the good ones. Just reply with something like, "I only accept trades of graded blue chip cards of all-time greats or high demand cards that are easy to sell, and I offer 70% of comps for trades". Something along those lines. I would think you wouldn't want to push away the guy who has a Gretzky RC, Aaron RC, and a 53 Mantle to trade. Most people I know who bring cards to shows are pretty selective about what they put into their backpacks or Pelican cases. They're not carrying around a case full of junk cards at big shows hoping to find a sucker. Surely there are some, but my guess is the majority of those interactions occur at the local card shops, not at the National.

I've heard a few dealers recently saying things like, "I just say no to traders" or "Don't say the word 'comps' at my booth". Then they sit there and look up how much they paid for a card before determining whether or not they'll accept someone's offer on it as if that has any relevance to the card's current value whatsoever, or they'll put 95% of their net worth into cardboard, always desperate for cash and wonder why they're struggling to profit after paying $5k in dealer fees to set up a booth at the National. Why not give yourselves more buffer room and keep a larger portion of your assets in cash so that you can take advantage of opportunities as they arrive rather than handcuffing yourself financially to your inventory?

As a dealer, you have to make a profit or you won't be a dealer for very long. So you must consider your expenses and the amount of money you spent on your inventory to make a determination as to whether you had a profitable show. If a show is not profitable, I need to change my inventory and pricing or just maybe find a different show where I might have better luck.

Again, as a dealer, you must make a profit so you can't solely consider the value of the card (which has so many variables), you must take into consideration what you paid for your inventory. You can't trade a card that you initially paid $75 for a card you know you can only sell for $50, even though the supposed value for each card is $100.

Unlike "Trade," "Comps" is not a dirty word at my booth or tables. I welcome folks to look up recent sales. I have and I know I won't make a sale if I'm priced over comps.

I don't know how other dealers operate but I don't put any of my personal funds into buying cards. I fund my purchases through my sales.

I am not a full-time dealer. I do it for fun. I have a good day job and get paid well. Setting up at card shows each weekend is my form of stress release. I don't need the money I earn at shows other than to use it to purchase more cards which is more fun than selling cards. I have a steady stream of sales so I always have cash to purchase cards.

One last thing that I would like to stress is that I don't need any cards. So whatever you are offering to trade, I don't need it. Most long-time dealers are just like me and we each have massive inventories. I also have an endless stream of folks that want to sell me cards, which is my preferred route. The only thing handcuffing me is time. It takes a great deal of time to organize and price inventory. I'm paying employees to post cards on eBay because I just don't have the time to do it myself. I am contemplating hiring folks to price my inventory for the shows. Time is the biggest problem and the major handcuff.

[parkplace33]

This thread has been very entertaining. I love seeing both sides of the trade discussion.

One thought about trading at shows is that I believe collectors generally overvalue their cards. I can understand why, they have either a monetary or emotional attachment to them. But they should realize that dealers do not have that attachment to them, it is simply another card.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by JohnnyKilroy

Jackpot. This is exactly right. So many avenues to move cards these days, the leverage is just not there. Which also goes with the other point that trading with dealers is not advantageous or preferred. Most trading I see is between people walking around. Another reason why I don’t understand the term “trade value” these days. I value a card for exactly what I could sell it for when it comes to trading for something I want. If they bump up for “trade value”, then I will too… so I don’t see the point.

Agree in this era its my belief that the AH's now have most if not all of the leverage. It's my belief that maybe some of the big auction houses also have leverage over the TPG's in terms of pricing and turn around times.

Although I know this for a fact over the years some people only go to one show during the whole year and they bring lots of cash for one reason and one reason only to spend money on the cards at the show. Most are not going to come back with the cash they want the cards. I've seen a lot of stupid buys over the years at the National, that show has the most leverage for the dealer.

[JohnnyKilroy]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Although I know this for a fact over the years some people only go to one show during the whole year and they bring lots of cash for one reason and one reason only to spend money on the cards at the show. Most are not going to come back with the cash they want the cards. I've seen a lot of stupid buys over the years at the National, that show has the most leverage for the dealer.

I can see that. I just think that’s a dying breed. I just went to Chicago show this past weekend with a lot of cash. Left with all of it. Prices were too high.

[pbspelly]

What I find amusing is when a dealer is selling a card for, say, $100, and you offer to trade them the same exact card in comparable condition for a card they are selling for $75, and they turn you down.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by pbspelly

What I find amusing is when a dealer is selling a card for, say, $100, and you offer to trade them the same exact card in comparable condition for a card they are selling for $75, and they turn you down.

This doesn't surprise me. It obviously would depend on the demand for the specific card, but I would think a dealer would rather obtain a card they don't already have than get a duplicate of something even if it had a slightly higher value than the card they would be trading away.