Pre War Era Players you don't see in HOF discussions

[cgjackson222]

Pre-War players that I think are talked about a lot:
1) Bill Dahlen
2) Jim McCormick
3) Jack Glasscock


Pre-War players that I think are not talked about enough (not in any particular order):
1) Harry Stovey
2) Wes Ferrell
3) Urban Shocker
4) Pete Browning
5) Babe Herman
6) Babe Adams
7) Josh Beckwith (Negro Leagues)
8) Bob Caruthers
9) Sherry Magee
10) Tony Mullane
11) Tommy Bond
12) Charlie Buffington
13 Jack Quinn
14 Bob Johnson
15) Stan Hack
16) Bucky Walters
17) Wilbur Cooper
18) Carl Mays
19) Tommy Bridges
20) Larry Doyle
21) Bobby Veach
22) Gavvy Cravath
23) Jimmy Sheckard
24) George Gore
25) William Bell (Negro Leagues)

and many honorably mentions....

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I think a few of the players on your list get enough mention around this forum, anyhow. Stovey is among the most mentioned in my opinion.

Either way, I sure hope a lot of those guys get in! I've been saving many of their autographs for years.

[molenick]

I think Charles's list points out the problem. There are a lot of very good players who were better (at least statistically) than a specific player that is in the Hall.

Wilbur Cooper and Rube Marquard pitched at roughly the same time but Cooper (216-178, 2.89 ERA, 116 ERA+, 93rd ranked starter on Baseball Reference) was by any measure better than Marquard (201-177, 3.08 ERA, 103 ERA+, 252nd ranked starter).

The problem is, Marquard is an easy target because there are literally hundreds of non-HOFers better than Marquard and they're not all getting in. But Marquard pitched in NY, was the “$11,000 lemon", then won 19 games in a row and became a star on pennant-winning teams while Wilbur Cooper was less well-known. And I don't think the VC was doing advanced statistically analysis in 1971 when Marquard got in...it seemed to depend on who was on the committee and if there was some reason a player was still remembered.

So I am all for bringing these players to light and I will even add one I don't think is usually mentioned: Cupid Childs. But in all likelihood very few (if any) of these players will be getting in.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by molenick

I think Charles's list points out the problem. There are a lot of very good players who were better (at least statistically) than a specific player that is in the Hall.

Wilbur Cooper and Rube Marquard pitched at roughly the same time but Cooper (216-178, 2.89 ERA, 116 ERA+, 93rd ranked starter on Baseball Reference) was by any measure better than Marquard (201-177, 3.08 ERA, 103 ERA+, 252nd ranked starter).

The problem is, Marquard is an easy target because there are literally hundreds of non-HOFers better than Marquard and they're not all getting in. But Marquard pitched in NY, was the “$11,000 lemon", then won 19 games in a row and became a star on pennant-winning teams while Wilbur Cooper was less well-known. And I don't think the VC was doing advanced statistically analysis in 1971 when Marquard got in...it seemed to depend on who was on the committee and if there was some reason a player was still remembered.

So I am all for bringing these players to light and I will even add one I don't think is usually mentioned: Cupid Childs. But in all likelihood very few (if any) of these players will be getting in.

I think the majority of the people on my list probably do not belong in the HOF. I just think they should be in the discussion.

[molenick]

I agree with that as well. The Hall is already watered down enough. I am more of the argument now that the best player not in at his position (e.g., Dahlen) should be in rather than looking for players better than the bad choices (Baines, Haines, etc.).

[packs]

Another Ohtani prototype that’s pretty much lost to history is Dave Foutz. He collected more than 1200 hits with a career average of 276 and also won 147 games on the mound, including 41 games and an ERA title in 1886.

[GeoPoto]

"Another Ohtani prototype that’s pretty much lost to history is Dave Foutz."

If we are letting in early Ohtani/Ruth competitors for "all-around" honors:

John "Needles" Bentley. Pitcher with the Washington Senators in 1913-1916. 46 wins and 8 saves in 9 MLB seasons. His most productive season was 1924 with the New York Giants as he posted a 16-5 record with a 3.78 ERA in 188 innings pitched. Was a good hitter with a career OBP of .316 in 616 plate appearances. Gave up World Series winning-ground ball single to McNeely in the 1924 "pebble" game.

In his first two seasons with the Baltimore Orioles of the International League, 1917 and 1919 (he was in the US Army in 1918), with the exception of a lone pitching appearance in his first year, Bentley played exclusively at first base and in the outfield: In 185 games, he posted averages of .333 batting and .510 slugging. Then he really caught fire. From 1920 to 1922, Bentley’s numbers were staggering, as he batted .378 in 439 games, scored 340 runs, drove in 399, and had a slugging average of an astounding .590. In both 1920 (161) and 1921 (120), Bentley led the league in RBIs; in 1921, he won the league Triple Crown, batting .412 (the league’s highest season average in the 20th century), with 24 home runs and 120 RBIs. His 246 hits that season remain the league’s single-season record.

Yet Bentley continued to pitch when needed, and those results, too, were staggering. From 1920 through 1922, Bentley pitched in 56 games and produced a 41-6 record, a winning percentage of .872: in both 1921 (.923) and 1922 (.867), he led the league in that category. In 1920 (2.10) and 1922 (1.73), Bentley also led the league in ERA, and over three seasons his ERA was an astounding 2.07. During those years, by virtue of his performance both at the plate and on the mound, the press bestowed on Bentley the moniker "Babe Ruth of the Minors".

[Leon]

+1. The HOF has become the Hall of Mediocre.....don't look at who's in already but who deserves to be in because of their abilities.

Originally Posted by molenick

I agree with that as well. The Hall is already watered down enough. I am more of the argument now that the best player not in at his position (e.g., Dahlen) should be in rather than looking for players better than the bad choices (Baines, Haines, etc.).

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Was just thinking about Caruthers.

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Pre-War players that I think are talked about a lot:
1) Bill Dahlen
2) Jim McCormick
3) Jack Glasscock


Pre-War players that I think are not talked about enough (not in any particular order):
1) Harry Stovey
2) Wes Ferrell
3) Urban Shocker
4) Pete Browning
5) Babe Herman
6) Babe Adams
7) Josh Beckwith (Negro Leagues)
8) Bob Caruthers
9) Sherry Magee
10) Tony Mullane
11) Tommy Bond
12) Charlie Buffington
13 Jack Quinn
14 Bob Johnson
15) Stan Hack
16) Bucky Walters
17) Wilbur Cooper
18) Carl Mays
19) Tommy Bridges
20) Larry Doyle
21) Bobby Veach
22) Gavvy Cravath
23) Jimmy Sheckard
24) George Gore
25) William Bell (Negro Leagues)

and many honorably mentions....