SGC Q&A

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Posted By: Matt

I had a conversation with Michael Goldberg at SGC this morning regarding my first submission to them and he answered a few questions for me that I didn't see on their website Q&A and thought would be helpful to other members on the board. This should in no way be seen as taking a shot at SGC as I can imagine PSA works in a similar manner, but these items weren't clear to me so I thought I would share and perhaps help other SGC first timers. These are not direct quotes from Michael as this was just a conversation, so if I made any mistakes, I apologize.

1)
Q: When paying at a higher tier (e.g. the $20 Grand Slam Tier), what exactly are you paying the premium for?
A: You are paying for both the faster turn around time and the higher company liability in handling the card. In the case that either one of those is not relevant (such as sending in a $3 card for the $20 service where there is no increased liability) the value of the full $20 is seen as payment for the faster turn around time.

2)
Q: When submitting cards at multiple tiers (e.g. 5 day and 20 day service) on the same invoice (to save on return shipping) are are all cards still graded at their tiered times (i.e. 5 day cards graded in 5 days)?
A: In those cases all cards are graded at the lowest tier. For example, if you send in 5 day cards with 20 day cards, the 5 day cards will be graded at the same time the 20 day cards are.

3)
Q: Does the web site update in real time as each card is graded?
A: The Website only updates with the results of the submission once the cards have been shipped back to the owner.

4)
Q: Someone on the board suggested submitting all cards at the lowest tier since the actual grading service provided is the same no matter what. Is this doable?
A: No. If SGC sees a card that is grossly mis-estimated, they will only grade the card at the appropriate tier. (The example Michael gave was if someone submitted a $1000 Ty Cobb at the base grading tier, they would not grade it at that tier).

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Posted By: JK

Nothing really earth shattering here - every answer is exactly as I would expect.

Some observations:

Q2: If you want to save on shipping and you are submitting cards at different submission levels, it only makes sense that you will be stuck with the lowest common denominator (i.e. that they would all be graded by the time the lowest tiered cards (ie the ones with the longest turnaround time) were completed). Its not reasonable to expect that you could pay for lower tier service but have a faster turnaround time by throwing one or two higher tiered cards in there and asking that they all be shipped together.

Q3: While the site does not update officially until your cards are graded and shipped, there is a "back door" means of determining with relative accuracy what grade your cards received as soon as the cards are graded. I dont think its any real secret, but rather than post it here, email me and I will give you details.

Q4: Ive seen some board members suggest that you can "value" the card at any level you wish and submit at that tier - if something then happens to the card, sgc would only be responsible for the level you submitted at. Generally, I think this may be correct. However, I will confirm that if it is obvious, you will get a call from sgc telling you that they have to be submitted at a higher leve. I recently submitted two cards to sgc for crossover - psa 3 level e94s of cicotte and speaker. I valued both at 500 for several reasons - including the fact that I have my own insurance and didnt need to be insured by sgc for the full amount. I got a call telling me that they would need to be submitted at the $20 tier since both cards "booked" at around 1k.

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Posted By: Brad

No problem with the SGC and I've always been able to talk with a Co. representative with no hassle. SGC doesn't use a automated phone services, this is a big plus when looking for costumer service.

I give SGC an 8 out of 10

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Posted By: Matt

Again, I did not post this as anything other then informational; it's certainly not here to say they have bad policies or service.

On Q2, the other side of that question is if they would be graded in 5 days and held until the 20 day ones so at least you could know what you had on those after 5 days. Of course, with the answer to Q3, that issue becomes a moot point.

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Posted By: James Gallo

JK please email that back door You don't have an email listed.

Thanks

James G
jgallony@aol.com

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

I don't know Josh's "back door" but I have found that if you go to your pending submission list and click on the item it will pull up the pop report on that particular item.

Now if you have a relatively scarce item and you have some idea of the grade it should get you may find out way before they actually ship and post the grades.

Another way, though more cumbersome, is to send your cards in and at the same time make a record of the current pops. Then when checking later you can see the change between the pops at the time of submission and those that now come up.

In my last submission, all with relatively scarce cards, I was able to determine my grades on 10/12 several days before they actually shipped.

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Posted By: James Feagin

My question is why do folks think that "tougher" grading is better grading?

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Posted By: JK

Its not that tougher grading is better. Its more consistent grading that is better. If I buy an sgc card on ebay, I have a high level of confidence that I will know what Im receiving based on the assigned grade. I know that if I buy an sgc 60, it wont have a crease or wrinkle for example. I cant say that with psa - and in fact, have had too many psa 5s fail to cross because of a difficult to detect wrinkle.

Further, I'd rather have a card graded lower, but correct, than a card graded higher and incorrect.

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Posted By: cmoking

"Its more consistent grading that is better"

Yes!

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Josh -- I think an EX 5 card can have a very slight wrinkle. From the grading scale published on SGC's web site:

"60 EX 5: 80/20 or better centering, minor rounding or fuzzing of corners, roughness or chipping along edge (no layering), one VERY slight surface or "spider" crease may exist on one side of the card, gloss may be lost from surface with some scratching that does not detract from the aesthetics of the card."

PSA is not entirely clear on the matter -- their definition of VG-EX 4 says "a light crease may be visible," but their definition of EX 5 doesn't mention creases or wrinkles at all. I would take this to mean that creases and wrinkles are not allowed for EX 5, but as you say, PSA 5's do in fact sometimes have them.

Anyhow, when I see a PSA 5 that looks at first glance to be higher grade (sharp corners), I usually suspect that there is a small wrinkle somewhere that is difficult to detect.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Although I've had numerous collectors tell me they feel SGC is so tough that they may be undergrading some cards, my response is that tougher grading is the future of the hobby. I think SGC is ahead of the curve. I may not agree with everything they do, and I still feel they need to do a better job with blank backed cards that have a tiny bit of paper loss, but I think they understand the science of grading better than anyone.

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Posted By: JK

Eric,

Regardless of what their grading scale might say (and this is actually where I have somewhat of a problem) I assure you that in the majority of circumstances, one spider wrinkle or crease will kill the card's chance at a 60.

Ive had too many cards come back that were graded psa 5s without being crossed and all that is circled on the outside of the slab is one very small barely noticeable wrinkle. Ive actually had psa 4s that wouldnt cross to 50s due to a wrinkle.

I think the only way a card gets a 60 with a wrinkle is if (1) its missed; or (2) everything else about it is NM (ie an 84) except for the wrinkle. In other words, if it has a wrinkle and even one other defect noted for a 60 grade level, its not going to get a 60.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Josh -- I see what you're saying. This brings up an interesting point about how grading scales are actually applied in practice. Since cards rarely have all of the attributes (i.e. defect types) defined for each grade in exact combination together, but rather tend to have a mixture of attributes associated with different grades, should a card's grade be based on its 'average' attribute, or should it be based on its 'worst' attribute?

We have seen the cases where a card with, say, sharp corners that would qualify for NM 7, but also scuffing or slight paper loss on the back that would drop it to a VG 3 at best, is awarded a PSA 5, sort of the average of the two. Perhaps SGC tends to take the more conservative approach of giving more weight to the worst problem in assigning the grade, where a card needs to have all (or nearly all) of the qualities required to get a particular grade, and where goodness of one type is not allowed to compensate for badness of another. Maybe this is part of where SGC's reputation for toughness is coming from.

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Posted By: JK

Eric,

I think you are correct about sgc - they are conservative and I think that the card's grade is most affected by the card's worst attribute rather than its best. For example, I believe sgc's scale states that a 30 can have a small amount of paperloss. A 40 does not mention paperloss at all. Therefore, anything with paperloss almost always ends up no better than a 30 (Ive seen a few exceptions, but not many) with sgc.

BGS/BVG is similar in this regard. Despite what one thinks of them as a legit grader of prewar cards, I know that they assign four subgrades for each card (ie corners, surface, edges and one other that I cant recall). Under their system, the assigned grade is not necessarily an average of the four subs. Under no circumstances will they award a grade higher than 1 grade above the lowest subgrade. So, for example, if a card rec'd three 9s and one 2, the card would likely grade a 3 and could not grade any higher(the three strong attributes raise the overall grade of the card, but no more than one grade level).

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

That's interesting about the way BGS/BVG uses the sub-grades, with more weight given to the lower scores. I think the fourth attribute they evaluate may be Centering. I wish the other companies would assign sub-grades like that -- not necessarily printed on the slab itself, but at least available in their certification data base, so that the reasoning they used in coming up with an overall grade for the card could be referenced.

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Posted By: leon

I made the back large to show the paper loss on a few letters. This was graded a few weeks ago. I sent it in, in a GAI 6 holder.....GAI was/is(?) a little more lenient on paper loss. This would have been close to a 7 if not for the that. (or high end 6, imo)

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Posted By: JimB

"I know that if I buy an sgc 60, it wont have a crease or wrinkle for example. I cant say that with psa - and in fact, have had too many psa 5s fail to cross because of a difficult to detect wrinkle. "

I submitted a '53 Topps Campenella to PSA about ten years ago. I was sure it would come back as an 8. It came back a 6. I broke it out and resubmitted it at a show. It came back a 6 again. I questioned them at the show about it and the guy brought it back to the grader. He circled an area on the back of the card that he claimed had a minor wrinkle. I could not see it under a 10x loupe. Regardless, they said that a card could not grade higher than a 6 with a wrinkle. I imagine it would have to be pretty minor and the card to be otherwise nm/mt or mint to receive a 6. This "wrinkle" was so minor, it is impreceptible under 10x loupe. Assuming their grading standards have not officially changed, that is their policy. It differs from SGC's. SGC is much more tolerant of centering at the vg level. I have seen at least a half dozen example of 0/100 centering or worse at the SGC 40 level. THey each have their nuances.
JimB

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Posted By: JimB

Leon,
I bet they missed the paper loss on that one. Otherwise, it would not have gotten a 5.
JimB

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Posted By: leon

They saw the paper loss.....They told me about it....like I say...I think since this was a high end 6 or lower end 7, and it was being downgraded already, is why they did that. I don't know for sure. I know I often wonder how cards get the grades they do....

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Posted By: quan

jim, i agree with u about sgc/psa both having their own "nuances" pertaining to grading. we've talked plenty about it. it's all very subjective.

barry,
why would "tougher grading" be the trend of the future?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Quan- that's a very good question.

I think the hobby will demand it as the price of very high end cards continues to rise. And I think it's fair to say that SGC is growing and GAI is falling off the map. And SGC is known for its tough stance, and GAI is thought of as being too lax.

It happened in the coin business, where coins that were graded early on were less respected than coins graded as the requirements toughened. In fact, from what I understand, many coins had to be resubmitted years after they were first graded to keep up with the changing standards.

Likewise, old PSA holders are less respected than the current ones. I think strict grading is what collectors want now and will continue to demand in the future.

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Posted By: JK

Leon,

With respect to your card shown above, the only reason for it not getting a lower grade in my opinion is that "the paper loss" was not deemed to be paper loss, but rather a scratch or a scuff. SGC's criteria for a 60 states that a card can have "some scratching that does not detract from the aesthetics of the card." Obviously a scratch is still paper loss - its just a matter of degree. If anything other than the top layer was missing, that card would have received a 30, regardless of how nice the front looked. If Im incorrect, explain this one (very minor paper loss and a stain, otherwise a solid 6 or 7):

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Posted By: quan

barry u are probably right. as the monetary value escalates we do need stricter and more qualified people looking at the cards, to weed out problem cards.

i would contend however that sgc grading scales was tougher during the grady days and i would put more trust on the old baker psa flips than i do on the current crop of monkeys they have working...just out of personal observations.

josh i agree that there are varying degrees of paperloss and i would not hesitate to call some cards w/paper loss as VG/EX depending on how nice the card is overall with respect to wear/soiling/registration...maybe even EX.