Gone with the stain. Dick Towle

[smokelessjoe]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

So Mike if I cleaned say a 1914 CJ Jackson and removed all the stains made it look brighter and cleaner or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner...and you couldn't tell.

You wouldn't mind to find out later you paid a premium due to my "undectable" face lift?

Johnka Wonka McDonka

Ok, I am wondering about your question? So John, if I dumped chocolate milk (that is a hypothetical liquid - could be pomegranate rind as well) on a lets say 1914 CJ Jackson and added all kinds of stains to make it look darker & dirtier or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner.... and you could obviously tell.

Would you mind paying an inferior price due to my "detectable" face lift?

More importantly, would you expect full disclosure of how I altered the cards? My name, when, where, what and how???

Thank you,
Shoney Baloney

[glynparson]

Wonka is correct as are the others showing concern for what this does to the future of the card. This is not the same as removing wax from the front of a card with a nylon stocking. Adding a chemical to the card does, if the chemical remains at all, change the card wether we can tell or not. removing the wax restores the card to the original state. I fail to see how we can defend this practice until the long term effects of this chemical exposure are known.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Wonka is correct as are the others showing concern for what this does to the future of the card. This is not the same as removing wax from the front of a card with a nylon stocking. Adding a chemical to the card does, if the chemical remains at all, change the card wether we can tell or not removing the wax restores the card to the original state. I fail to see how we can defend this practice until the long term effects of this chemical exposure are known.

While I do not have a problem with what Dick does, I too wonder about long term effects. I know Dick has been doing stain removal for years, and would be curious about the card conditions of his earlier work. If any deterioration can be detected at all, I imagine my eyes would need some help from a scientist to tell me what is going on inside the card fabric.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Johnka Wonka McDonka

Ok, I am wondering about your question? So John, if I dumped chocolate milk (that is a hypothetical liquid - could be pomegranate rind as well) on a lets say 1914 CJ Jackson and added all kinds of stains to make it look darker & dirtier or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner.... and you could obviously tell.

Would you mind paying an inferior price due to my "detectable" face lift?

More importantly, would you expect full disclosure of how I altered the cards? My name, when, where, what and how???

Thank you,
Shoney Baloney

Shawn if you dump chocolate milk on your cards that’s a tough break you.

Otherwise not sure I follow your thinking?

I don’t recall the hobby having an issue with people doctoring cards to lower their value secretly before selling to folks.

Cheers,

John

[t206trader]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Johnka Wonka McDonka

Ok, I am wondering about your question? So John, if I dumped chocolate milk (that is a hypothetical liquid - could be pomegranate rind as well) on a lets say 1914 CJ Jackson and added all kinds of stains to make it look darker & dirtier or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner.... and you could obviously tell.

Would you mind paying an inferior price due to my "detectable" face lift?

More importantly, would you expect full disclosure of how I altered the cards? My name, when, where, what and how???

Thank you,
Shoney Baloney

No use in crying over spilt milk. Sorry, had to.

[atx840]

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

Spring cleaning comes early to the Plank household...

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by atx840

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

Spring cleaning comes early to the Plank household...

That would suck, Chris...a lot of good buddies here on the board would be very bummed out if that happened as they collect very high end cards. Just not sure it's worth the crash of that part of our hobby to do so.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by atx840

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

I've heard a few similar statements such as yours. However, your statement is based on your own personal feelings. It infers that the next owner of a "cleaned" card would care as much as you do. What if that next owner doesn't care that their card was "cleaned" by a previous owner? It's a fact, just from reading this thread, that some people don't care (as long as there is no detectable evidence).

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by atx840

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

The ethics of this has been covered well by you guys, but Chris' point above really concerns me - if the TPGs either can't detect chemical alteration today, or can only do so if alerted to it beforehand (not sure if this is true), but someday they COULD be able to detect it, then some collectors today could later find themselves screwed, especially if they are purchasing '52 Mantles, T206 Planks, etc., that show no evidence today of Dick's tampering.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The ethics of this has been covered well by you guys, but Chris' point above really concerns me - if the TPGs either can't detect chemical alteration today, or can only do so if alerted to it beforehand (not sure if this is true), but someday they COULD be able to detect it, then some collectors today could later find themselves screwed, especially if they are purchasing '52 Mantles, T206 Planks, etc., that show no evidence today of Dick's tampering.

The word "screwed" infers that it would lower the value of the card. Nobody knows if it would or not. Did Kendrick's T206 Wagner lose value now that we all know it's trimmed? Who knows?

[rainier2004]

My problem is with the disclosure, pretty rare to see a card advertised and "cleaned".

"Character is built when no one is looking"

Just b/c its undetectable does not make it ethical. When I buy my cards I expect them to be unrestored and unaltered, I believe that 99.9% of my cards follow these rules. It is impossible to know the provenance to all your cards, that still doesn't make it ok for someone to restore it and sell it w/o disclosure. I am very surprised how many are ok with this...

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

My problem is with the disclosure, pretty rare to see a card advertised and "cleaned".



"Character is built when no one is looking"



Just b/c its undetectable does not make it ethical. When I buy my cards I expect them to be unrestored and unaltered, I believe that 99.9% of my cards follow these rules. It is impossible to know the provenance to all your cards, that still doesn't make it ok for someone to restore it and sell it w/o disclosure. I am very surprised how many are ok with this...

And just because it's detectable doesn't make it unethical. So it seems like a good deal of people are on both sides of the fence...so who actually makes the call on ethics here?

Ok, so some people believe that by cleaning a card, you take it out of it's natural state. How about all of the chemicals that every t-card absorbed when they were around cigarette smoke or maybe inside the package before opened? I mean, which chemicals are we going to allow? I think we have to put the ethics debate on hold until we actually know what we are talking about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The word "screwed" infers that it would lower the value of the card. Nobody knows if it would or not. Did Kendrick's T206 Wagner lose value now that we all know it's trimmed? Who knows?

I'm making the assumption that if chemical alteration could be detected, that the TPG's would not slab the card. So in my hypothetical situation, someone buys a chemically-altered PSA-slabbed '52 Mantle today, then it later gets cracked for SGC and turns out to be chemically-altered, and thus does not get a numeric grade. I think we could agree that the card's value would go down.

I'm not giving a raw '52 Mantle example, but that could end up even worse if the original buyer bought it as unaltered and the TPG later detected chemical alteration.

[chernieto]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351030629038

Nice lot --with pencil markings on back. The Pencil markings altered the cards- cleaning the cards would help restore them closer to the original state which would be more appealing to my eye anyway.
Paul C.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The ethics of this has been covered well by you guys, but Chris' point above really concerns me - if the TPGs either can't detect chemical alteration today, or can only do so if alerted to it beforehand (not sure if this is true), but someday they COULD be able to detect it, then some collectors today could later find themselves screwed, especially if they are purchasing '52 Mantles, T206 Planks, etc., that show no evidence today of Dick's tampering.

I believe the technology to detect such chemicals/alterations is readily available at this time...just not cost effective...I mean we're talking baseball cards here!!!!

I agree that someday if this becomes available at low cost...there will be many pissed off collectors/investors!!!

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by atx840

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

Spring cleaning comes early to the Plank household...

Maybe overlooked, but in the "Spring Cleaning Comes Early To The Plank Household" thread linked above, post # 34 was very interesting:

Originally Posted by Doug

The last time I saw T206s that white was when I soaked a few beaters in warm water mixed with a small scoop of Oxi Clean just to see if it would work. They came out with borders and backs that were snow white with no chemical smell at all. I sold them with the disclosure that they had been cleaned and they later popped up on eBay in slabs.

Could it be that simple, with the Plank-maybe Oxi Clean?

Sincerely, Clayton

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here are some nice white borders.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1915-C...-LOT33800.aspx

[ElCabron]

There is a common sense factor that is severely lacking in many of these posts. As Leon said, in the real world, water is not considered a chemical.

If you accidentally spill water on a card, should it then be considered altered? If you accidentally get a speck of ketchup on a card, do you have to leave it there, or can you wipe it off? If you wipe it off, should the card now be considered altered? Also, stop eating and drinking around your cards.

For me, it's pretty simple. Water is fine. Chemicals are not. I don't think I'm in the minority on that.

I don't have a degree in chemistry, but I can pretty much guarantee I've soaked more cards than anyone who does. So which background is more relevant to this discussion? The theoretical one, or the practical one? I don't need someone else to tell me what they think happens to cards when they're soaked. At least when they're soaked in water. I know what happens. Stains don't magically disappear in water, btw.

How many here are on board with the original poster and think his practices are okay? I'm a strong vote in the "no freaking way" column.

-Ryan

[bobbyw8469]

Addition by subtraction. He isn't adding anything. He is taking away stuff that shouldn't be there in the first place. If someone from the 30's put rubber cement on the back of a card to post it in an album, I don't see nothing wrong with removal of the glue. He isn't filling holes, coloring borders,etc. He is removing glues and stains that shouldn't be on the card in the first place. I am sure I am in the minority here.

[quinnsryche]

Some people like cards that look like they were run over by a truck (torn/folded/creased and such). Some like nice clean cards that look brand new. To each his own. If you think a card has been "tampered" with and you don't like it, leave it for the next collector. If you don't care, buy it. Do your homework, make an educated decision and live with it. It's just cards. This is a hobby, it's supposed to be fun. When it's not fun, you lose sleep over it, you go on chat boards and endlessly bitch above everything in the hobby, maybe it's time to move on to something else. Take a deep breath and chill boys!
Life's too short to get bent out of shape about whether or not a baseball card has been cleaned on not.
My 2 cents, take it or leave it.

[dstudeba]

Each collecting area has to make up its own mind about the extent or restoration they will permit. Just because it is allowed in paintings or movie posters doesn't mean it is acceptable everywhere else. In the antique furniture market uncleaned examples are more valuable than cleaned ones, similar in the coin world.

Also I highly doubt that the work he does is undetectable. It is imperceptible but not undetectable. Take some of the cards into any undergraduate analytical chemistry lab and you will be able to detect a difference between a card that has been through his process and one that hasn't.

It might take a little more work, but you could also tell the difference between a card that has been soaked and one that hasn't.

[ctownboy]

I hate the idea of cards being cleaned to increase their value. It doesn't matter that they can't be detected NOW.

With works of art, they were created to be LOOKED at and admired. The value for them comes from being ABLE to see the beauty. If they are dirty or damaged then the beauty (and pleasure) of looking at them is diminished. Cleaning and/or restoring them brings them BACK (or close to) what they were before and THAT is something to be looked at and admired. Even when cleaning and restoring, the people doing the work try and make sure they don't do something that will cause problems in the future.

With automobiles, yes, they are being restored. Why? Because the original intent of the car was to be driven. For most people, the pleasure of owning that car was to be able to DRIVE it. If it is dirty, damaged and/or undrivable then the pleasure of the original intent is not there. So, people get their cars restored.

BUT, that restoration work is usually disclosed (or is glaringly obvious). In years past, those restored cars sold for much more than unrestored cars or cars that were cobbled together. However, in the last five to 10 years, things have somewhat changed and original cars are selling for as much or more than cars that have been restored. Why? People have gotten tired of cars that are over - restored (and the cost that is associated with doing it).

With baseball cards, what was the original intent? Usually it was for them to be used as enticements or advertising for products. After they were out in the public, they were played with, flipped, traded and collected (not necessarily in that order).

1914 Cracker Jack cards are, for example, EXPECTED to have candy stains on them. Some cigarette cards are expected to have tobacco stains on them. Some gum cards are expected to have gum stains on them. That is how they were packaged and that is how they originally came out. After that, the normal wear and tear of being handled and traveling about for years and years is to be expected.

People pay BIG money today for cards in GREAT condition because they are "supposed" to be abnormal. After being packaged with products, handled, flipped, traded and played with by kids, boxed, stored and moved, they are SUPPOSED to show that. Cards that DIDN'T get this treatment and stayed close to original get the BIG money paid for them.

So, imho, cards that are trimmed, rebacked, have color added, have corners rebuilt or are cleaned, are ALL altered and shouldn't receive the BIG dollar prices that they sometimes do and that is because they are NOT original and have NOT lasted the years in original condition.

As far as cleaning cards and them not being able to be detected. So, what? Not only should people with cleaned (and enhanced value) cards be worryng about what the chemicals are doing to them now or what they will do in the future but they should ALSO be worrying about technology.

No, there may not be technology that can detect the cleaning now (or, if there is it is so limited or so expensive that it cant or wont be used) that doesn't mean that technology wont be here in the future. So what happens then?

I imagine cards that have been micro - trimmed with lasers or that have been chemically cleaned will be worth less money and those people who are saying "no big deal" today will say something different when it comes time to sell those cards and they (or their heirs) receive less (probably much less) money than they were expecting.

David Smith