Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

NO normal person submitting those cards would ever receive an "8".

I would be thrilled if it came back with a 6 in that condition, and would fully expect a 5 (or an "A", to be more specific). WTH is going on in Newport Beach?

Some submitters are more equal than others.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Some submitters are more equal than others.

Yes... and if there's a totem pole of hierarchy, I am touching the ground!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yes... and if there's a totem pole of hierarchy, I am touching the ground!

Meanwhile, even without doctoring, people are making fortunes on bumps.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A slice out of the Big Dog.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2160

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

They Are printing money

It amounts to that, doesn't it? It would be fascinating to see how much of these whopping profits actually gets reported to the IRS and then we'll find out if there is honor among thieves?

[samosa4u]

There are many different outlets for these doctored cards. Based on everything I have been reading so far, it looks like PWCC is the preferred choice for the majority of these card doctors. However, the earlier posts reveal that Will Jaimet was selling his cards through Memory Lane. What percentage of these doctored cards go through PWCC in comparison to the others? For example, would you say that at least fifty percent of them go through PWCC? Eighty percent? Thirty percent? What about Memory Lane, Heritage, REA, COMC? How would we divide the remaining percentage up among them?

My purpose of asking this question is to see which of the above companies have been hit the hardest, and most importantly, why they were selected in the first place. What made them so attractive to these card doctors? And as for the companies that have sold the fewest of these tainted cards, why is that? Do they have people running them who could spot some of these alterations even though they were encapsulated?

[japhi]

Latest uncovered is three known trimmers all in the same PSA sub. All cards were sold by PWCC, with PWCC as possibly the submitter.

What a great system. Sell cards that have restoration potential to a group of large dealers. Bring these cards back in house post restoration. Sub them on favourable terms. Get favourable results. Slap a HE sticker on them. Allow same dealers to shill the cards up.

Pretty incredible really, what a racket.

[Republicaninmass]

It's obvious, though not sure it is provable in court. I'll defer to counsel.

Many examples show:
High end consigned examples were shilled up to a point were either a doctor would buy and restore it, amd relist, or someone would be left holding the bag.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by japhi

Latest uncovered is three known trimmers all in the same PSA sub. All cards were sold by PWCC, with PWCC as possibly the submitter.

What a great system. Sell cards that have restoration potential to a group of large dealers. Bring these cards back in house post restoration. Sub them on favourable terms. Get favourable results. Slap a HE sticker on them. Allow same dealers to shill the cards up.

Pretty incredible really, what a racket.

So who is the in-house person at PSA who is approving and bumping all of these cards for this high-profile account? Who is the PSA representative in charge of PWCC and their band of trimmers? They're getting authorizations and multi-grade bumps at an astronomical rate, as compared to the "normal" submitter.

The latest evidence in this thread is very damning for both PWCC and PSA...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...333320&page=14

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

So who is the in-house person at PSA who is approving and bumping all of these cards for this high-profile account? Who is the PSA representative in charge of PWCC and their band of trimmers? They're getting authorizations and multi-grade bumps at an astronomical rate, as compared to the "normal" submitter.

The latest evidence in this thread is very damning for both PWCC and PSA...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...333320&page=14

I doubt we will never find out. If there is someone caught via evidence that can be proven, to include emails, phone call, ect at psa doing the alleged above it would destroy PSA.They will stop at all means to not have exposed. It will be all handled via Money, Buying Back to avoid charges and exposure.. I expect PSA walks away squeaky Clean not exposed and or implicated. After all PSA IS TEFLON

[ALBB]

Yes, Id love for that info to be uncovered.....but what would happen in the end ?..somebody gets their " pound of flesh"...they things continue along as they were

[ejharrington]

Does anyone have a recommended process for investigating one’s own cards for possible alterations? For example, if I bought a Psa 6 graded card in 2014 are there certain internet references that people can recommend I go to look for that same card in a possibly lower grade and/or raw prior to my purchase? I have access to Worthpoint and VCP but if anyone has any other sites I would appreciate your input. Thanks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

Does anyone have a recommended process for investigating one’s own cards for possible alterations? For example, if I bought a Psa 6 graded card in 2014 are there certain internet references that people can recommend I go to look for that same card in a possibly lower grade and/or raw prior to my purchase? I have access to Worthpoint and VCP but if anyone has any other sites I would appreciate your input. Thanks.

Not that anyone should follow my example but I posted my process in this thread within the past few weeks.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A slice out of the Big Dog.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2160

OK... Now they've crossed the line. You do not mess with one Tony Perez!

This warrants jail time

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not that anyone should follow my example but I posted my process in this thread within the past few weeks.

Thanks Peter, found it

[Peter_Spaeth]

Brief jump over to modern for one of the worst I've seen.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Brief jump over to modern for one of the worst I've seen.

Wow. Just wow.

[steve B]

Why trim if you can get a 10 on a card like that?

PSA pretty much has to be selling grades.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by japhi

Latest uncovered is three known trimmers all in the same PSA sub. All cards were sold by PWCC, with PWCC as possibly the submitter.

What a great system. Sell cards that have restoration potential to a group of large dealers. Bring these cards back in house post restoration. Sub them on favourable terms. Get favourable results. Slap a HE sticker on them. Allow same dealers to shill the cards up.

Pretty incredible really, what a racket.

FOR 15 YEARS PLUS. Think about it...

And today, just another 4 K between friends...for a Sid Gordon and Alvin Chipmunk...LOL

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=354

[phikappapsi]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

FOR 15 YEARS PLUS. Think about it...

And today, just another 4 K between friends...for a Sid Gordon and Alvin Chipmunk...LOL

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=354

ya know, this scandal pisses me off as it does everyone - but - if you're spending the same amount on a 1954 Sid Gordon; as you could spend on some very attractive playing day Babe Ruth's - then you almost deserve this nonsense. I understand the appeal of graded cards. I even understand the appeal of going after specific items in a particular grade which I've done. But if you're spending thousands of dollars on a common card, that nobody would EVER forge/reprint; that's readily available for $3-$5; then you're a fool.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by phikappapsi

ya know, this scandal pisses me off as it does everyone - but - if you're spending the same amount on a 1954 Sid Gordon; as you could spend on some very attractive playing day Babe Ruth's - then you almost deserve this nonsense. I understand the appeal of graded cards. I even understand the appeal of going after specific items in a particular grade which I've done. But if you're spending thousands of dollars on a common card, that nobody would EVER forge/reprint; that's readily available for $3-$5; then you're a fool.

+1

[japhi]

The best reveal from those blowout threads is PSA has a program where favoured dealers could sit with a grader in person and that grader would pick through the dealers cards and pull cards that would 10. Cost is 10 pee card, minimum 600 cards, and you only get slabbed 10s back.

Amazing how much of an idiot Orlando is to let these shenanigans go. What a small game they are playing, a 500mm company giving breaks to their hobby buddies. With that level of access - one on one’s with graders- pretty easy to see corruptible the process is. Imagine the influence a dealer like PWCC had been on their own grades. Or 4 sharp corners. The game is clearly rigged.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by phikappapsi

ya know, this scandal pisses me off as it does everyone - but - if you're spending the same amount on a 1954 Sid Gordon; as you could spend on some very attractive playing day Babe Ruth's - then you almost deserve this nonsense. I understand the appeal of graded cards. I even understand the appeal of going after specific items in a particular grade which I've done. But if you're spending thousands of dollars on a common card, that nobody would EVER forge/reprint; that's readily available for $3-$5; then you're a fool.

Blame the victim?

[phikappapsi]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

Blame the victim?

one could see it that way. or...

caveat emptor

or

a fool and his money...

You can hate the massive fraud, and still believe some of those whom the fraud is perpetrated against are idiots. They aren't mutually exclusive in my mind.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by phikappapsi

ya know, this scandal pisses me off as it does everyone - but - if you're spending the same amount on a 1954 Sid Gordon; as you could spend on some very attractive playing day Babe Ruth's - then you almost deserve this nonsense. I understand the appeal of graded cards. I even understand the appeal of going after specific items in a particular grade which I've done. But if you're spending thousands of dollars on a common card, that nobody would EVER forge/reprint; that's readily available for $3-$5; then you're a fool.

Hear! Hear!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Brent to Johnny (to doctor to Johnny?) to Brent to PSA to Brent to victim.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=362

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Brent to Johnny (to doctor to Johnny?) to Brent to PSA to Brent to victim.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=362

Does anyone know if the individuals who discover these frauds or anyone else for that matter lets the owner ie set registry owner know they purchased altered cards? I would think that short of legal action the only way PSA will step up their game is if people start demanding refunds for monies spent on these cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

Does anyone know if the individuals who discover these frauds or anyone else for that matter lets the owner ie set registry owner know they purchased altered cards? I would think that short of legal action the only way PSA will step up their game is if people start demanding refunds for monies spent on these cards.

I think they attempt to make contact. Or they were trying at one point.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by japhi

The best reveal from those blowout threads is PSA has a program where favoured dealers could sit with a grader in person and that grader would pick through the dealers cards and pull cards that would 10. Cost is 10 pee card, minimum 600 cards, and you only get slabbed 10s back.

Amazing how much of an idiot Orlando is to let these shenanigans go. What a small game they are playing, a 500mm company giving breaks to their hobby buddies. With that level of access - one on one’s with graders- pretty easy to see corruptible the process is. Imagine the influence a dealer like PWCC had been on their own grades. Or 4 sharp corners. The game is clearly rigged.

Been saying this for months on this thread! It’s a shame most people don’t care or know. This Should he disclosed to the collecting public.... these private Invitational Meetings with graders ....WTH

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by japhi

The best reveal from those blowout threads is PSA has a program where favoured dealers could sit with a grader in person and that grader would pick through the dealers cards and pull cards that would 10. Cost is 10 pee card, minimum 600 cards, and you only get slabbed 10s back.

Amazing how much of an idiot Orlando is to let these shenanigans go. What a small game they are playing, a 500mm company giving breaks to their hobby buddies. With that level of access - one on one’s with graders- pretty easy to see corruptible the process is. Imagine the influence a dealer like PWCC had been on their own grades. Or 4 sharp corners. The game is clearly rigged.

Perhaps Joe correctly saw this as a way to lock up PSA's market domination.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Perhaps Joe correctly saw this as a way to lock up PSA's market domination.

How many guys, meaning business, dealers/auction houses, with big adds on their website and in the SMR go to these Invitationals? I’m banking on all of them. Perfect Marketing to their big submitters with large exposure.

PSA=TEFLON

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

How many guys, meaning business, dealers/auction houses, with big adds on their website and in the SMR go to these Invitationals? I’m banking on all of them. Perfect Marketing to their big submitters with large exposure.

PSA=TEFLON

I don't doubt that Jeromy Murray takes care of his insiders too. I don't know what the company formerly known as Sportscard Guaranty Company does. Hopefully less of this.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't doubt that Jeromy Murray takes care of his insiders too. I don't know what the company formerly known as Sportscard Guaranty Company does. Hopefully less of this.

That is complete BS, Joe Clemons and myself say you are wrong!!!

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by japhi

The best reveal from those blowout threads is PSA has a program where favoured dealers could sit with a grader in person and that grader would pick through the dealers cards and pull cards that would 10. Cost is 10 pee card, minimum 600 cards, and you only get slabbed 10s back.

Amazing how much of an idiot Orlando is to let these shenanigans go. What a small game they are playing, a 500mm company giving breaks to their hobby buddies. With that level of access - one on one’s with graders- pretty easy to see corruptible the process is. Imagine the influence a dealer like PWCC had been on their own grades. Or 4 sharp corners. The game is clearly rigged.

10 bucks per card in the lot, or do they only charge for the cards graded? If the cards didn't get preferential treatment in the grade assigned I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this, but I'm sure they did.

There was talk on the board a while back about meetings with graders where preferred clients could argue their case when trying for a bump. This new revelation does not come as much of a surprise.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

10 bucks per card in the lot, or do they only charge for the cards graded? If the cards didn't get preferential treatment in the grade assigned I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this, but I'm sure they did.

There was talk on the board a while back about meetings with graders where preferred clients could argue their case when trying for a bump. This new revelation does not come as much of a surprise.

Ten bucks for the cards that are graded 10’s. And the grader sorts through the lot and pulls the tens. So you show up with 1000 cards, the grader goes one by one and pulls 600 that will grade 10, cost is 6k.

The whole process is preferential treatment, with no controls to prevent influence of the grader.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

10 bucks per card in the lot, or do they only charge for the cards graded? If the cards didn't get preferential treatment in the grade assigned I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this, but I'm sure they did.

There was talk on the board a while back about meetings with graders where preferred clients could argue their case when trying for a bump. This new revelation does not come as much of a surprise.

To the top part. I know PSA and SGC does this with bulk lots. You pay a flat rate per card and then pay the grading fee on the cards that meet your requirements. This is a win win for everyone if done honestly.

To the second part we had a company come on this forum a couple years ago and offer this service. Also not a bad thing if done honestly. I know I have got cards back from PSA that I knew should have had a higher grade.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Brent to Johnny (to doctor to Johnny?) to Brent to PSA to Brent to victim.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=362

another day, another 5K, what fun it is to get the stuffin beat out of you. Multiply this scenario by 25-30 crooked dealers, plus all the card doctors... plus 15 years and you have a 1 billion $ fraud, IMHO.

My friend the card doctor, he taught me what to do.
My friend, the card doctor, he taught me what to say.
he said that you'll be duped, when I sing this to you..

ue e oh ah ah, ting tang walla walla bing bang....

https://youtu.be/cmjrTcYMqBM?t=63

[perezfan]

Classic.. Love the Witch Doctor!

Here’s another...

I need you to fix my card again
Turn my six into a ten
Doctor Doctor, give me the news
I need a numbered slab to come from you
Ebay’s gonna help me shill
It’s in a bad case, because of you

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QNLfQkHQlE8

[bbeck]

Just had a card purchased of mine from eBay by one of the alleged trimmers. He has purchased from me in the past, always nicely centered PSA 7's. The card was recently graded. I guess he must just have a great eye for bumps.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by bbeck

Just had a card purchased of mine from eBay by one of the alleged trimmers. He has purchased from me in the past, always nicely centered PSA 7's. The card was recently graded. I guess he must just have a great eye for bumps.

Please tell us what card it is and post a picture, so we can watch out for it. If if shows up down the road in a higher flip and altered, we have good evidence of doctoring and cause to give to BODA who can turn over to authorities.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Classic.. Love the Witch Doctor!

Here’s another...

I need you to fix my card again
Turn my six into a ten
Doctor Doctor, give me the news
I need a numbered slab to come from you
Ebay’s gonna help me shill
It’s in a bad case, because of you

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QNLfQkHQlE8

AND today another 10K or so including this 57 Ernie Banks.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=399

A beautiful day for a ball game..."Let's Fake 2",

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by bbeck

Just had a card purchased of mine from eBay by one of the alleged trimmers. He has purchased from me in the past, always nicely centered PSA 7's. The card was recently graded. I guess he must just have a great eye for bumps.

I love how people are happy to come on here and talk or complain about some eBay buyer or seller who did this or that, but do not disclose who that eBay buyer/seller is. In this case, Bbek is telling the board that a known card doctor bought his card, but discloses neither the buyer/doctor nor the card.

Bbek- your post is useless, and your failure to disclose the buyer or at least the card is tantamount to participating in card doctoring.

Ryan Hotchkiss

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I love how people are happy to come on here and talk or complain about some eBay buyer or seller who did this or that, but do not disclose who that eBay buyer/seller is. In this case, Bbek is telling the board that a known card doctor bought his card, but discloses neither the buyer/doctor not the card.

Bbek- your post is useless, and your failure to disclose the buyer or at least the card is tantamount to participating in card doctoring.

Ryan Hotchkiss

Maybe it is someone who outing will get you attacked on this forum, it's not like that doesn't happen.

[Rhotchkiss]

If someone on this forum is a known card doctor, I think others on this forum should know. We should be helping each other out and protecting the hobby - not hiding the crooks and contributing to the cesspool

[CuriousGeorge]

Agreed

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

If someone on this forum is a known card doctor, I think others on this forum should know. We should be helping each other out and protecting the hobby - not hiding the crooks and contributing to the cesspool

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I love how people are happy to come on here and talk or complain about some eBay buyer or seller who did this or that, but do not disclose who that eBay buyer/seller is. In this case, Bbek is telling the board that a known card doctor bought his card, but discloses neither the buyer/doctor nor the card.

Bbek- your post is useless, and your failure to disclose the buyer or at least the card is tantamount to participating in card doctoring.

Ryan Hotchkiss

Ryan,

You realize that user hasn’t been on the site for 24 hours, right? Perhaps give him a little time before suggesting he is participating in card doctoring.

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I love how people are happy to come on here and talk or complain about some eBay buyer or seller who did this or that, but do not disclose who that eBay buyer/seller is. In this case, Bbek is telling the board that a known card doctor bought his card, but discloses neither the buyer/doctor nor the card.

Bbek- your post is useless, and your failure to disclose the buyer or at least the card is tantamount to participating in card doctoring.

Ryan Hotchkiss

I have attempted to forward the information to the party that actually has done the majority of the work in uncovering the current information. No, not you, but a different board altogether. I have no idea who you are but you obviously have some distorted thinking. I wanted to make the point that an individual who has been accused multiple times by this board is still actively buying. I assume he could care less about the accusations being made. Maybe they are attempting to bump the card or maybe something worse, I have no idea. You think that disclosing this one card to the individual who follows these cards religiously, but not you, is tantamount to being a card doctor and is useless? Think before you post and attempt to disparage someone publicly. They may actually be doing more good for the hobby than you and your egotistical, pompous innuendos. I apologize if I did not reply fast enough to your liking, I don't spend every waking hour on the board as if my life depends on it.

[phikappapsi]

Originally Posted by bbeck

I have attempted to forward the information to the party that actually has done the majority of the work in uncovering the current information. No, not you, but a different board altogether. I have no idea who you are but you obviously have some distorted thinking. I wanted to make the point that an individual who has been accused multiple times by this board is still actively buying. I assume he could care less about the accusations being made. Maybe they are attempting to bump the card or maybe something worse, I have no idea. You think that disclosing this one card to the individual who follows these cards religiously, but not you, is tantamount to being a card doctor and is useless? Think before you post and attempt to disparage someone publicly. They may actually be doing more good for the hobby than you and your egotistical, pompous innuendos. I apologize if I did not reply fast enough to your liking, I don't spend every waking hour on the board as if my life depends on it.

all well and good; you two can spat, it'll be fun to watch... but I'd still like to know the card and/or ebay user

[judsonhamlin]

And will you be blocking that eBay user from bidding on your cards going forward?

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by bbeck

I have attempted to forward the information to the party that actually has done the majority of the work in uncovering the current information. No, not you, but a different board altogether. I have no idea who you are but you obviously have some distorted thinking. I wanted to make the point that an individual who has been accused multiple times by this board is still actively buying. I assume he could care less about the accusations being made. Maybe they are attempting to bump the card or maybe something worse, I have no idea. You think that disclosing this one card to the individual who follows these cards religiously, but not you, is tantamount to being a card doctor and is useless? Think before you post and attempt to disparage someone publicly. They may actually be doing more good for the hobby than you and your egotistical, pompous innuendos. I apologize if I did not reply fast enough to your liking, I don't spend every waking hour on the board as if my life depends on it.

Ok, my bad that I did not give you time to respond, and thus prematurely jumped to conclusions. I apologize. But I, and I assume many on this board, would appreciate if you at least disclosed the card that was purchased by the doctor and the name of the card doctor (per my initial post), so that the community is aware that card could pop up later altered. I see no reason not to do this, especially if you know it was purchased by doctor. Regardless of whether you hate me.