What's the real deal with these Cuban cards?

[Exhibitman]

Here are some large photographic premiums. Any information on these? How many in the set? When were they issued? Who else is in the set?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Adam,

Would you mind if we deal with the issue of these Romeo y Julieta cards first and then get answers to your boxing cards? I'm sure Rolando can answer your questions. I just don't want to get too far off topic.

-Ryan

Sure. I was just filling in the time between her call for you to respond to your response.

[ernestohur68]

Rolando said than the are very good. One of the people in the photo of many persons is the trainging of Chocolate, PINCHO GUTIERREZ. about the SOL he said than they are very rare and want to know if it is a big card?

[ernestohur68]

He said card are originals. That he never saw before the almendares cards from 1911 and 1915 but he guaranteed that they are originals. He check the gelatin of photos and any other things. Rolando don't speak english but he talk with ryan direclty by phone and he will write you.

[ernestohur68]

HE NEVER SAW THEM in his life. But that not means than they are fakes. He love the Dempsey card.

[ernestohur68]

Yo he visto esas postales con anterioridad en el set del 1922 y tengo dos o tres en mi coleccion. Sobre las postales del 1911 y 1915 no las habia visto antes. Pero no tuve nunca dudas desde el momento que las vi y despues de revisar con detenimiento el papel y el plateado de la foto de que son completamente originales. lAS POSTALES ROMEO Y JULIETA INCLUYENDO LAS DE 1922 SON MUY DIFICILES DE ENCONTRAR. Las de boxeo son un poco mas faciles de ver.

[Exhibitman]

Translation:

I've seen those postcards in the set before 1922 and have two or three in my collection. About postcards 1911 and 1915 had not seen before. But I never had doubts from the moment I saw them and after carefully reviewing the role and silver photo that are completely original. ROMEO AND JULIET POSTCARDS INCLUDING THOSE OF 1922 ARE VERY HARD TO FIND. The boxing are a little easier to see.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by ernestohur68

Rolando said than the are very good. One of the people in the photo of many persons is the trainging of Chocolate, PINCHO GUTIERREZ. about the SOL he said than they are very rare and want to know if it is a big card?

The SOL is postcard sized.

[ElCabron]

Okay, I just got off the phone with Rolando and Ernesto. My Spanish is horrible, so it was difficult communicating. I will relay some of what was discussed here. I will also post some of my questions.

I will start by saying that Rolando says the cards are real. He has the cards in front of him and he should be able to tell. I do not believe Rolando would have anything to do with buying, producing, or selling fake cards. So that is a strong point for the "real" side. He has one or two of the amateur players in his collection. I saw them in person over 10 years ago. So at this point, I'm fairly comfortable with the amateur players, which are from the 1920s are probably real. I say "probably" because I am not looking at them in person and can not definitely say they're real without having them in my hands. The amateur player cards makes sense to me because they would have been issued right around the same time as the boxing cards. Cuban baseball cards almost never have stats on the reverse. In fact, none of the cards from the 1920s and earlier do. The fact that the amateur ones have stats makes sense, though, because the Romeo y Julieta boxing cards have stats (W-L record, number of KOs, etc.) on them. So that fits. For the amateur cards.

What I still have doubts about are the 4 Almendares cards. All 12 of these cards were allegedly found together. There were 8 amateur cards and 4 professionals, all of them on Almendares. Actually, only 3 are players and one is a trainer. The amateur cards appear to be from 1922. Are we saying that the Almendares cards were also produced in 1922? If so, why do the backs say 1915 and 1911? An even bigger question is why are all 4 images taken directly from each player's 1910 Punch cards? This really makes no sense to me.

Or, are we saying that the 4 Almendares cards were produced 10 years earlier than the amateur cards, but happen to look exactly like them and were discovered in the same group as them? Were "Romeo y Julieta" and "Punch" both part of the same parent company? If not, why would Romeo y Julieta be using the Punch images?

I have several other questions, comments and observations, but I'll stop here for now and wait for these questions to be answered.

-Ryan

[ernestohur68]

I will post a photo of me and Rolando talking with Ryan. Rolando confirmed Ryan than the cards are originals. He said than the Romeo y Julieta cards are very rare. The boxing cards are easier to find. He have in his collection two or 3 cards from the set of 1922 . And although ne never saw the 1911 and 1915 cards he guaranteed with his reputation than they are originals He said that this will be enough to Ryan. He said that he truth in him. He will write you directly to Ryan now.

[Exhibitman]

Another Cuban piece, a PC that looks like it was used to promote a fight and was signed by Kid Chocolate to Cuco Conde:



These I believe are cut from matchboxes:





I know, too much stuff, but how often do you get the chance?

Last one [for now] is this

[ernestohur68]

very logic what you said. maybe they are from same set because the print in the back I just opened the cubanball.com he added other romeo y julieta cards FROM SAME set of 1911--1915. bUT he don't think they used stadistics of 1911 or 1915 in e print of 1922

[ElCabron]

Dude, start a separate thread about all that stuff. You'll still get answers.

-Ryan

[Exhibitman]

Understood. I will stop photo-bombing the thread.

Unless Google Translate is off, in the Spanish post I translated above, Rolando mentioned Romeo y Julieta "postcards." I have two real photo postcards from the era that look to be made with Romeo y Julieta art. They are in terrible condition and I am not sure if I have a scan. Are there legit 1920s postcards made with the RyJ art or is that a misread?

[ernestohur68]

Ryan, I don't want to sell the cards to him. I have found other cards and I sell them in Ebay In the past I found the Aguilitas and I sold them in Ebay. Rolando is here yet. he said that he would like to buy them for me. He is smiling but he know he can not buy them from me. Thanks very much for your interest. He said agree with you about the same image used in the punch cards. hE SAID than they are other example of this as the CALLUP and PHOTOS issued that used same images. Maybe they used images from SPORT ASSOCIATION. he can not said the year of the 1911 and 1915 card but THEY CAN SAID THAN ALL THE CARDS ARE ORIGINALS

[ernestohur68]

MATCH BOX . People used to cut the box and converted them in cards.

[ElCabron]

So, are you saying all the cards are from 1922? I can tell you, that is the ONLY possible way I could see the Almendares cards being legit. They are absolutely not from 1911 or 1915 or anything other than 1922 like the amateurs. It still makes absolutely no sense why they would have been issued using 1910 Punch images and using stats over a decade old, but it's not out of the question.

If you're saying they're from 1922, I'm willing to say it's possible they're real. If you're saying anything earlier, no way.

-Ryan

[ernestohur68]

About the year he can not be sure. This is all that he can said. I hope all this conversation help all the collectors. One more time, i am not an expert. But you have here the words of the person who know more about cuban baseball cards all over the world as ryan by himself said in this forum. Bye

[mannybb24]

Good bye? That's it?

[ElCabron]

Here is a very clear example of how it can easily be determined that they were all produced at the same time. On the left is the back of the "J.A. Falagan" card, one of the amateurs. On the right is "Evaristo Pla" card, one of the Almendares ones. Notice how the text on the right edge of the Falagan card shows part of the next card on the sheet. It just shows the first letter of each line. Then notice the letters on the left edge of the Pla card. A perfect match. This means the Pla card was definitely produced with the amateur cards, which means it's from 1922. It also means that either all of the cards are real, or they are all fakes. Since the amateur cards do seem real, and Rolando has said all of them are, I'm pretty comfortable at this point saying there's a very good possibility these are legit. It's pretty exciting when new issues are discovered, so this is pretty cool, if they're real, which it appears they probably are. That's about as much of an endorsement as I can give.

You should have no problem selling them now due to all the extra publicity this thread has generated for you and your cards. You're welcome. I am not bidding, btw.

-Ryan

[Exhibitman]

Someone is...all the cards now have bids.

[mannybb24]

They all had bids as of yesterday.

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Someone is...all the cards now have bids.

The power of Net54 in action!

[ernestohur68]

Ryan rolando said that the images used in nacionales and aguilitas second serie is the same in some cases as mendez card. Check it. One more time cards are originals. You said that you will truth in rolando words and this is what he said.

[ernestohur68]

CUBAN BASEBALL CARDS. AS I toldk you when I begin this, I KNOW NOTHING, let the experts talk

[mannybb24]

If Ryan is cool with them, then I guess I was wrong for questioning them.

Yes, I'm the one that started all this so I apologize for all this and to Ernesto and Ana.

I had and still have serious doubts about the legitimacy of these cards but I'll just keep my mouth shut from here on out.

I just find it a little suspicious that CubanBall.com just posted the RYJ Hildalgo card within the last day or so. So was the Hildalgo part of this new discovery?
Or did Cesar have it in his possession for a while and was just waiting for Rolando to endorse it?

But whatever, what do I know? All I was trying to do was to keep collectors from getting burned by fakes as I have run into cards similar in the past, only those were deemed to not be real.

If any good has come out of this, it is the revelation of Rolando Sanchez, who by the pictures posted in this thread, he has one hell of a collection.

Steve

[ernestohur68]

Torriente and others more are same images. I don't know about the cesar cards. It was not found together. I just opened the cesar site when ryan said about the same images used in punch and romeo y julieta

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by ernestohur68

Ryan rolando said that the images used in nacionales and aguilitas second serie is the same in some cases as mendez card. Check it. One more time cards are originals. You said that you will truth in rolando words and this is what he said.

Yes, there are many examples of the same image being used in different cards. Not cards produced over 10 years apart, though. Those Mendez cards are 1 year apart.

-Ryan

[ernestohur68]

IT JUST MEANS THAT THEY COULD BE FROM 1911 AND 1915. Rolando has to go to his house. I am very happy for what I do for him and for the world of collecting baseball cards. Now everybody know who he is. If any user have any doubt that want to translate to Rolando I will do it to him. Rolando is a great person and it is very cooperative. GOOD LUCK

[slidekellyslide]

Net54 just had a public conference call from Cuba...that's pretty cool.

[ernestohur68]

The experts talk.

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by ernestohur68

IT JUST MEANS THAT THEY COULD BE FROM 1911 AND 1915.

No, those back scans I posted earlier prove rather conclusively that it absolutely CANNOT be from 1911 or 1915. Has to be from 1922 or whenever the amateur cards were produced. The only other possibility is that they're fake.

And yes, we know Rolando says they're real. It's okay not to say it again.

-Ryan

[ernestohur68]

HE SAID THAT IT COULD BE VERY POSSIBLE than they are from 1922. Other expert. Other expert from the island Jaime Clavel told me that it is almost sure than they are from 1922 and he said that it was very commun used same pictures in different brands of cards. he said that photographs in that time it was not like today. That it should be impossible take pictures to the players every time a brand want to made a card. He mentioned that later issues show player from earliest time, it is very comun in Cuban cards.

[ElCabron]

I'm not familiar with the common practice of using the earliest image of a player on a Cuban baseball card. Do you know of any other examples? I don't.

-Ryan

[Scocs]

....and there you go. One day after I first created this thread, it was dry as a bone. Now with over 2000 views and 83 posts, I can say thanks to all involved.

A fun and educational experience!

Scott

[aljurgela]

Ok... I have been on the sidelines here for awhile. I have wanted these to be real since I saw the Jose Mendez of the same series a few years ago and a few others. I am still undecided. I have held these cards from this series in my hands and they do have the silver shine similar to the aguilitas and nationales. This, coupled with the paper, makes them feel real, for sure. It makes it feel great that a local expert like Rolando believes them to be real.... But...

The doubts that I have are similar to those of Ryan. Why did the use the punch images? There are only a few instances of the same image being used in different sets in Cuban baseball cards, but all are from the 1920s - mostly Nacionales, Tomas Gutierrez and Aguiltas Segundas. The images are fuzzy. Some of the writing on the back is in English. The pitchers have stats that are for batting and fielding.

All of this is POSSIBLE. It just does not feel as good as one would like it to. I have some of the boxing cards from Romeo and Julieta and they are "Cleaner" on the front (lines/font/etc.)... Which subtract from the confidence.

Steve, it is fine to question, IMO.... they are definitely not related to the Nacionales, for sure... This has been a fun thread to read, and it looks like the cards will be sold as there are bids on them. Should be fun to see how many people think that the are real and choose to bid on them.

And since there is so much interest in these, please check out my Tomas Gutierrez complete set for sale right now in Hakes!!!! Super rare complete set, with both Torrientes!

[ernestohur68]

CHECK IN THOSE TWO Series the images of TORRIENTE, MARSANS, MERITO ACOSTA. They used same photo in the two series. I don't know why in this case they used earliest images in this. I tried to explain than maybe they don't have more photos of the players and that is why so difficult to find originals photos of players from that time in Cuba.

[ernestohur68]

BOMBIN ESUTAQUIO PEDROSO WAS PLAYING IN 1922 IN OTHER LEAGUE, negro league. MAYBE they can not use the ALMENDARES uniform to take photograph of him for some regulations . he was playing in 1922 in this league and he was 32 years old.


1922 Cuban Stars West

1922 > Class Negro Majors > 1922 Negro National League
Overall: n/a

Manager: n/a
Represented: traveling team
Ballpark: n/a
Attendance: n/a
Other Years: 1923

[ernestohur68]

Romeo y Julieta made in this issue a tribute to Cuban players of1915 and 1916 and that is why the put in the back SERIE 1915 or SERIE of 1911, NOT REFERING TO cigar serie if not to BASEBALL SERIE, it is confirmed because the score of the back is from that year.

[ElCabron]

When you don't know the answer to something, just don't answer. You're not helping yourself by trying to make these answers up. The more you keep posting, the less real you make these cards seem.

-Ryan

[jhs5120]

Very interesting read - I don't think I have ever seen an open Q&A with an expert from another country here before.

I know very little about Cuban cards so let me see if I understand this: the Cuban baseball set has never been seen before, but it has the same style and appearance as a more popular boxing set from the mid 1920's. The set consists of amateur players with 1922 stats and more well known players with 1911 stats and 1915 stats, yet they all appear to be made in 1922 (and use pictures from 1910).

Is the above correct? If so, strange. I don't think it speaks for the authenticity (or lack thereof) of the issue, but more of the quirkiness of the set.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Very interesting read - I don't think I have ever seen an open Q&A with an expert from another country here before.

I know very little about Cuban cards so let me see if I understand this: the Cuban baseball set has never been seen before, but it has the same style and appearance as a more popular boxing set from the mid 1920's. The set consists of amateur players with 1922 stats and more well known players with 1911 stats and 1915 stats, yet they all appear to be made in 1922 (and use pictures from 1910).

Is the above correct? If so, strange. I don't think it speaks for the authenticity (or lack thereof) of the issue, but more of the quirkiness of the set.

ADN they would be the Only cuban sets to have stats in general (all others had advertisements), and some of the stats are in English. And some of the pitchers have batting stats.

Pretty cool maze.... Right!!!

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

AND they would be the Only cuban sets to have stats in general (all others had advertisements), and some of the stats are in English. And some of the pitchers have batting stats.

Pretty cool maze.... Right!!!

Wow, very weird. The cards appear to be from the period - it's just these little things that make me wonder. It's a shame we don't know more about this set, I'm sure it would have a fascinating story to tell.

[slidekellyslide]

So what's the story behind the cards? Where were they found? Who had them?

[mannybb24]

Spain

[ElCabron]

Cuba.

[mannybb24]

The sellers on EBay are the ones that found them in Spain.

[mannybb24]

So did they change there story Ryan, I was told by the seller they found them in Spain?

[ElCabron]

Good luck on eBay selling something you say you found in Cuba. This whole thread is risky, to be honest.

[mannybb24]

And it says in the description box on EBay that they are "pre embargoed item found in Spain".