1916 M101-4 Sporting News Babe Ruth PSA 4 on Goldin

[theshowandme]

Good luck with bidding!

https://goldin.co/item/1916-m101-spo...a-vg-ex-4c4edi

[oldjudge]

Very off center but otherwise nice--why are you posting this?

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Very off center but otherwise nice--why are you posting this?

Will be a fun auction to track. Did I break a rule?

[oldjudge]

No, but it is odd to see people post about lots in live auctions unless it is theirs; is this yours?

[theshowandme]

I am poor, no this isn’t mine

[robertsmithnocure]

I am not sure what the protocol is, but there does not seem to be many auction announcements on the main page.

That being said, it looks like a pretty nice. The centering is not great, but it does not seem “very off center” to me, but I am not that familiar with the issue. Looks 2/1 or so to me. Maybe between 65/35 or 70/30?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Will be a fun auction to track. Did I break a rule?

Because there are a thousand different items for sale in auctions that end every week. Even cool ones don't need threads until they've been purchased.

There isn't an "outing an auction" rule, mainly just an expectation. Many people in the market for this card would be angry at you for bringing even more visibility to it, giving people a reason to think they will no longer get a steal or even fair market for it.

[boneheadandrube]

There's an SGC 7 coming up in Heritage that would be more interesting.

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Because there are a thousand different items for sale in auctions that end every week. Even cool ones don't need threads until they've been purchased.

There isn't an "outing an auction" rule, mainly just an expectation. Many people in the market for this card would be angry at you for bringing even more visibility to it, giving people a reason to think they will no longer get a steal or even fair market for it.

Ah, okay.

Didn’t mean to cross that boundary. I’m generally clueless on this stuff.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Ah, okay.

Didn’t mean to cross that boundary. I’m generally clueless on this stuff.

I would not worry about it. If they did not complain they would feel the day is lost. This is a card in a major action that everyone here looks at. You did not 'out' anything. Pass out some bran muffins and Drano enemas and everyone will be fine.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by swarmee

There isn't an "outing an auction" rule, mainly just an expectation. Many people in the market for this card would be angry at you for bringing even more visibility to it, giving people a reason to think they will no longer get a steal or even fair market for it.

Anyone angry over an auction like this being "outed" needs to get a clue. This is a major card being auctioned by one of the largest auction houses. There is absolutely zero chance of this card flying under the radar.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Michael B

I would not worry about it. If they did not complain they would feel the day is lost. This is a card in a major action that everyone here looks at. You did not 'out' anything. Pass out some bran muffins and Drano enemas and everyone will be fine.

+1

A card of that standing and value already has a severely limited number of interested collectors that can actually afford it. And the people at those levels likely are well aware of when a card like that comes up for sale, and likely have people or other systems in place looking out for them to let them know when one is available for sale. Plus, you know Goldin is hyping and advertising the heck out of such a big-name card to as many people as they can. Like Michael said, you didn't really "out" anything.

You're a fairly new member on here, and haven't posted much at all so far. Other long-time "regular" members will occasionally start threads talking about some big cards going up for sale, and even having people guess what they'll end up selling for. But because they've been on here for longer than you and/or are otherwise considered part of the "clique", no one on here gives them grief. Yet they did exactly the same thing you did.

Just keep this experience as a reminder going forward that some people will always look upon any mention of an auction or sale, before it is finalized, as potentially jeopardizing their perceived opportunity to get a bargain or "steal" of something that they hope isn't really seen by anyone else. Truth is, something like that is much more likely to happen with something up for sale on Ebay than at a big, well-known AH.

[nolemmings]

Curious that this same card was auctioned by Goldin just 6 months ago and sold for $510K with BP. Don't know if there was a reneged bid or someone just decided to turn it over that fast. I have often wondered about the Ruth rookie-- so many collectors claiming it would be their dream card yet they seem to flip it without a lot of hesitation. I generally understand the profit explanation when accompanied with a claim that the extra funds will help get something they really wanted, but kinda seems like you're already at the top of the mountain if you own this one, or damn near it.

[mrreality68]

Hi

I was fortunate to buy one years ago when the costs were alot lower and I am a collector and it is the center piece of my collection with no plans on selling unless something unforseen happens.

With that said many people on this forum often highlight a card that is on auction for many reasons from curiousity, to interest, to it being odd or rare, or for the beauty of it.

Alot of times we highlight the high end cards and all takes guess on how much it will sell for or like/criticize how it looks.

As for people seeing it. IT can still be easily missed regardless of value. (I did not know this card was at auction 6 months ago as mentioned prior) With so many auctions going on all the time and non stop and so many cards having been flipped or non seen in years it is hard to keep track.

I have missed many cards that I am kicked myself for not seeing and not having a chance to bid on it and others knowing my interesting have PM me (as I have them in the past) to help each other not miss cards.

That being said I think the clarity on that card is amazing the centering is a little off(but with rare cards not as much an issue) and if it was better centered than the grade would be higher.

What will be interesting is the difference in the price from this 4 to the HA 7.

[puckpaul]

Originally Posted by Michael B

I would not worry about it. If they did not complain they would feel the day is lost. This is a card in a major action that everyone here looks at. You did not 'out' anything. Pass out some bran muffins and Drano enemas and everyone will be fine.

+1

Big collectors aren’t missing these at auction.

[mrreality68]

So what do you think the over/under is on this card since we have a thread.

It went for $510k with BP approx 6 months ago.

It is at $350k ($420k with BP)

I am thinking over $620k?

Any guesses?

[Republicaninmass]

Why would someone sell right away? Seems curious at the least. Hard to believe even the 500k sales was legit, let alone a "collector who is going a different direction"


Maybe the saw the psa 3 sale at 400k? I dont get it

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Why would someone sell right away? Seems curious at the least. Hard to believe even the 500k sales was legit, let alone a "collector who is going a different direction"


Maybe the saw the psa 3 sale at 400k? I dont get it

I am sure it was a legit sale. and Yes I have seen people flip high end cards all the time.
Also prices can vary with blank back vs Ad Back. and since they do not come up often there will always be demand for it

Regardless. IT is already at $420K (with BP) and it still has a long day to go. So it should easily exceed the $510K #.

[Leon]

+1 And there is never a loss for a conspiracy story either.

Originally Posted by mrreality68

I am sure it was a legit sale. and Yes I have seen people flip high end cards all the time.
Also prices can vary with blank back vs Ad Back. and since they do not come up often there will always be demand for it

Regardless. IT is already at $420K (with BP) and it still has a long day to go. So it should easily exceed the $510K #.

[notfast]

Seems to be a common thought that a lot of big cards purchased via Goldin/PWCC were bought via loan/margin.

Bills are due so now people have to sell.

Tons of modern stuff popping up for sale that was bought within the last 6 moths as well.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by notfast

Seems to be a common thought that a lot of big cards purchased via Goldin/PWCC were bought via loan/margin.

Bills are due so now people have to sell.

Tons of modern stuff popping up for sale that was bought within the last 6 moths as well.

BINGO THE POWER OF VAULTS...were these loans in cash? cards? Or What ?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

I am sure it was a legit sale. and Yes I have seen people flip high end cards all the time.
Also prices can vary with blank back vs Ad Back. and since they do not come up often there will always be demand for it

Regardless. IT is already at $420K (with BP) and it still has a long day to go. So it should easily exceed the $510K #.

I have no opinion on whether it was a legitimate sale. The card is not that scarce--at least 7 sales in the past two years with just that TSN ad back.

I have no issue with people flipping cards. I just look askance at someone claiming they are a diehard collector who has always wanted a Ruth rookie when they probably should be saying they are an investor who always wanted something that would turn a quick profit. The word poser comes to mind. But hey, so be it-- a small issue in the overall scheme of things.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I have no opinion on whether it was a legitimate sale. The card is not that scarce--at least 7 sales in the past two years with just that TSN ad back.

I have no issue with people flipping cards. I just look askance at someone claiming they are a diehard collector who has always wanted a Ruth rookie when they probably should be saying they are an investor who always wanted something that would turn a quick profit. The word poser comes to mind. But hey, so be it-- a small issue in the overall scheme of things.

Hi.

Depends on the person. I am not sure what die hard collector claimed to be die hard and bought a rookie Ruth to flip and turn a quick profit. That is definitely an investor/flipper. Others who took years to get it and was lucky enough to get it and has held it for years and thru these huge spikes(where they could have taken big profits) and are collectors. I know many Card collectors who have no intention of selling them unless something unforeseen happens(ie medical, divorce etc). And this applies to any collector of any card, type or collection.

I am proud that most people I know or met thru this Forum are collectors who enjoy the hunt of the card and the enjoyment of their cards and collecting of it.

I am a collector that enjoys our hobby and the friends made thru them.

As for scarcity I guess it depends on how you define scarcity of cards. How often they comes up to me does not define how scarce but rather population. To me the Rookie Ruth not as scarce as some other Ruth cards (ie Felix Mendelssohn, Boston Store, Baltimore News etc) but a lot more scarce than the Goudey. They are also more scarce than many of the Top Cobbs (ie t206) and more scarce than the Topps or Bowman Mantles). But all of these have the demand that exceeds the supply.
In total the Rookie Ruth and all its variants (different ad backs and Blank backs) are less than 180 (approx ) and the higher the grade the more scarce they are.

Regardless when they come up they seem to keep going up in price and the Demand is still strong.

Sadly the spike of the last couple of years has put this card and many other cards out of reach of many collectors

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

. Did I break a rule?

Yes, sort of….

There’s three unwritten rules about auctions that I live by:

1) Never “out” an auction that’s live and in progress. The people currently bidding don’t need or want any other competition.

2) Never brag about where you found a particular deal, be it a little-known auction site, web page, physical store/location, etc. If you tell everyone where you found a steal, someone else will use that knowledge to steal it next time.

3) Don’t keep upping the bid every five minutes with days left in the auction. Figure out what your max bid is and make your max bid in the closing minute. Bidding items up over several days doesn’t really drive determined buyers away.

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by Tabe

There is absolutely zero chance of this card flying under the radar.

That’s not true at all.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

That’s not true at all.

A half million dollar card in a Goldin auction? No chance.

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by Tabe

A half million dollar card in a Goldin auction? No chance.

Not everyone has the free time to look, no matter what value…especially at this time of year.

[oldjudge]

Sporting News is the most common of the ad backs by far. In total, there are approximately 40 of the other known ad backs. That makes them genuinely rare. The SN I would consider pretty scarce and the blank backs, which make up the majority of the Ruth rookies, just scarce. Having said that, they are all very desirable.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Will be a fun auction to track. Did I break a rule?

Again, don't worry about it. Truth is, if you think about it realistically, no matter what you do, you end up ticking somebody off. By not pointing out the auction you do a disservice to other collectors possibly looking to find a particular card, that otherwise may not have been aware of it. It is almost comical how when you see people initially coming on here that others will jump in to welcome them and tell them how lucky they are to find this site and how much information and help they'll be able to get from everyone on here that will gladly share their knowledge and expertise. And then you'll discover that some of that is nothing but bull$hit!!! Truth be known, many collectors, dealers, and others do not want to share any info or knowledge with others that could possibly impact their being able to get a deal or a steal on something that they want, or to be able to find some rare item they want for themselves.

For example, the supposed unwritten rule about not outing a current auction, may well be of benefit to those who found it and are bidding on it, which is usually but one very small group of people, at most. Meanwhile, by not passing the word along about a great card up for auction, it doesn't potentially help other collectors who actually may be interested in that particular card or item themselves. And there are a ton of collectors on here so that the chance that even one person would possibly benefit from learning about a card/item up for sale that they otherwise wouldn't have known about is pretty darn good. Also, the person who consigned for sale the particular card/item in question could potentially benefit as a result of additional bidders, and there are a ton of people on Net54 who have, are now, and/or will be consigning items for sale/auction in the future. And of course, the AH/consignee can also possibly benefit from having more potential bidders, and once again, we have many AH/consignee owners and workers that are members on here as well.

So isn't that somewhat interesting that by following this one, supposed, Net54 unwritten rule about "outing" a current auction, you may be doing a disservice to a few, at most, other Net54 members who discovered and were actually bidding on the "outed" sale/auction already, but by not mentioning it, aren't you possibly doing even more of a disservice to potentially even more Net54 members who would like to be bidders as well had they known the card/item was available for sale, and/or the sellers/consignors and the AHs/consignees who are behind and presenting the card/item for sale and are also members here on Net54 as well?

Of course, people coming on Net54 to tout and advertise their own items they are selling are often frowned upon as inappropriate, greedy, self-promoters. It would also lead to some clogging up the site with endless threads pushing their own items, which no one really wants, and isn't fair to the advertisers that actually pay the site owner. The longer you're on here, you'll notice that when others do post about some interesting card/item they did come across that is then still currently up for sale/auction, they'll almost immediately include a disclaimer about how it is not their item being sold, so as to stop the trolls and naysayers that would otherwise attack them unmercifully.

This site and its members are really no different than the public at large. A large part of the community is helpful and unselfish, but just like in real life, there are also many that are..............not so nice, open-minded, honest, or non-hypocritical. The best thing to do is just ignore those not-so-nice members you may unfortunately come across. Good luck, happy New Year, and happy collecting!

[notfast]

I see no issue with posting this.

I’m sure it was the first item listed in the email from net54 advertising the auction a few days ago.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Tabe

A half million dollar card in a Goldin auction? No chance.

100 percent agree. The big players in the hobby are all tracking these cards.

[theshowandme]

My guess is $650k

[soxinseven]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

100 percent agree. The big players in the hobby are all tracking these cards.

Also, most know when these cards are coming to auction long before any public announcement.

[oldjudge]

I'm game--my guess is $775k.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I'm game--my guess is $775k.

I'm in Jay's camp, $775K - $800K.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by notfast

Seems to be a common thought that a lot of big cards purchased via Goldin/PWCC were bought via loan/margin.

Bills are due so now people have to sell.

Tons of modern stuff popping up for sale that was bought within the last 6 moths as well.

Do I understand that, using collateral in the vault, PWCC and Goldin allow bidders to employ margin trading in their auctions? First time I have heard of that ploy. Nice to have leverage in a bull market.....but.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Do I understand that, using collateral in the vault, PWCC and Goldin allow bidders to employ margin trading in their auctions? First time I have heard of that ploy. Nice to have leverage in a bull market.....but.

John,

It seems like only a matter of time before they start having "margin calls" based on prices/values of cards someone owns, especially when it comes to the modern card market. LOL

Part of the sad reality in that the hobby is becoming more like an investment industry every day.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by BobC

John,

It seems like only a matter of time before they start having "margin calls" based on prices/values of cards someone owns, especially when it comes to the modern card market. LOL

Part of the sad reality in that the hobby is becoming more like an investment industry every day.

+1 Agree. Those vaults are starting to allow you to borrow against the value of your cards in the vault. For them it is a smart move
1. they have your card so if you do not pay/default they are have possession of it and can sell it
2. it gets collectors/investors to store their cards in those vaults and associated benefits those companies get from it

For the collector/investor if they manage it they have funds they might not normally have and give them liquidity to bid or bid higher on cards they want and can get now and pay over time vs potentially either missing out on a card or have to sell something else to finance the card (Thus selling something they might not have wanted to)

I can see it being used by investors like mentioned as form of margin call. But I can also seeing collectors using it as mentioned above.
The key is how to be disciplined about it.

With that said I am thinking that card will go for $700K.

[Johnny630]

Auction Houses that allow this I consider them as Brokerage Account Companies.

[theshowandme]

Would not trade on margin with Vanguard/Fidelity/Charles Schwab, so definitely not trading on margin with any auction house. Wow.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Do I understand that, using collateral in the vault, PWCC and Goldin allow bidders to employ margin trading in their auctions? First time I have heard of that ploy. Nice to have leverage in a bull market.....but.

Unless I’m getting different terms than the high rollers, these margin loans might not be all that helpful for flippers even. I’ve only seen loans at 40% of purchase price and for 2 month terms (extensions theoretically possible but not guaranteed), and at 12% interest rates (ie 1% per month). While it’s not nothing, it does seem like a flipper would still need to put up a large chunk of change, and would need to be ready to flip really fast before either their loan comes due, the interest eats up their profits, or their item drops in value.

[mrreality68]

People are describing it as Margin some as loans but it is not exactly like margin. It really is a loan that you are securing with the cards. And then you have terms to pay it off at a designated interest rate. And you can pay over time or pay back when you choose. Just like a mortgage on your home or a credit card (but credit cards are unsecured).

Fyi the Card is now at $400k($480k with BP) and with 13 days to go. So put on your over/unders

[BobC]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

People are describing it as Margin some as loans but it is not exactly like margin. It really is a loan that you are securing with the cards. And then you have terms to pay it off at a designated interest rate. And you can pay over time or pay back when you choose. Just like a mortgage on your home or a credit card (but credit cards are unsecured).

Fyi the Card is now at $400k($480k with BP) and with 13 days to go. So put on your over/unders

Don't disagree at all Jeff, but if people are using these cards as collateral for their loans, and the terms require these loans to be at least XX% of the card(s) value, what happens if/when the card(s) acting as collateral fall below that required percentage? I may be wrong, as I've never seen any of these agreements, nor have ever thought (and probably never will) about borrowing anything against the value of cards I may own. Also, I seem to remember back during the National this past Summer that there was a lot of talk about people bringing cards to put in some "vault", and how they could then get loans against the value of their cards. IIRC, this "vault" supposedly received more than $1M of cards being put into it. If true, the fact that people were specifically bringing their cards to then have them put in this "vault" means they were not able to take advantage of the 'no sales tax" advantage of having card purchases sent directly to a "vault" in a non-sales tax state. That tells me there had to then be some other advantageous reason that so many people would bring in so many cards to put into a "vault", in-person, then. And I'm going to go out on a limb and guess they did it to take advantage of loans they could then get against the value of their cards.

Now I don't know if these people were then given actual cash/money from these loans, or if they received credit they could then use against additional purchases they would then go on to make through the company behind the "vault. Either way, that sure sounds like the definition of a basic margin type loan to me. Maybe not exactly the same terms and conditions as to what you could do through an investment firm/brokerage you got a margin loan through, but still along the same lines and reasoning.

As I said, I don't have enough first-hand knowledge about how any of these "vault" loans work, or their specific terms and conditions. Hopefully someone with direct, actual knowledge can chime in. Wouldn't be surprised though if they end up having some elements of both regular type loans and typical margin loans in them.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by BobC

I'm in Jay's camp, $775K - $800K.

I'll go ahead and say that is preposterous


"this same card was auctioned by Goldin just 6 months ago and sold for $510K with BP. "

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I'll go ahead and say that is preposterous


"this same card was auctioned by Goldin just 6 months ago and sold for $510K with BP. "

You could be right. We are just putting our Guess in.

What is your thoughts for a price?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

You could be right. We are just putting our Guess in.

What is your thoughts for a price?

I'd say looking at the overall outlook of the economy as a whole, it should sell for LESS than 6 months ago! The easy money is gone, modern market continues to fall apart.

Punching well above my weight, but I wont care to believe the final result anyhow. This was a 20k card in 2010, but alas, it is a Ruth RC.

Just think about 20k to 3/4 of a million bucks in 10 years. It makes no sense to this pauper.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I'll go ahead and say that is preposterous


"this same card was auctioned by Goldin just 6 months ago and sold for $510K with BP. "

Same question as Jeff. Rather than just putting down other people's guesses, what is yours then? Based on your points, I'm assuming you feel it will come in at less than the $510K sale from 6 month ago? As someone else previously noted, it is already at $400K, before the BP, with 13 days to go yet. So what is your guess as to the final price, including BP? My guess was to be inclusive of the final BP, since that becomes part of what the buyer actually ends up having to pay.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by BobC

Same question as Jeff. Rather than just putting down other people's guesses, what is yours then? Based on your points, I'm assuming you feel it will come in at less than the $510K sale from 6 month ago? As someone else previously noted, it is already at $400K, before the BP, with 13 days to go yet. So what is your guess as to the final price, including BP? My guess was to be inclusive of the final BP, since that becomes part of what the buyer actually ends up having to pay.

With it being at $480k with BP 1 more bid will match the $510k sale 6 months ago(the bids are in increments of $30k with BP right now. So the 2nd bid will top it.

[PhillyFan1883]

580k-620k.

I hope more for selfish reasons.

An amazing two sets between the M101-5 and -4's--which I hope gets more recognition with the notoriety of the Ruth Rookie.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Because there are a thousand different items for sale in auctions that end every week. Even cool ones don't need threads until they've been purchased.

There isn't an "outing an auction" rule, mainly just an expectation. Many people in the market for this card would be angry at you for bringing even more visibility to it, giving people a reason to think they will no longer get a steal or even fair market for it.

Just for the record, no one & I mean NO ONE, is going to steal a Ruth rookie. Impossible. Posting this card on the board means absolutely nothing because anyone capable of purchasing it, is well aware that it is up for auction.