Maybe the 52 Topps Highs did get dumped?

[irv]

Just finished watching this Sy Berger vid for the 1st time (great vid on 52's and other Topps cards) and near the end, up comes some questions about all the left over high number 52 Topps cards and what were done with them.

After reading some great threads, a while ago, about early hobbyists and their stores/shops and who had access to these cards, I also concluded the story was folklore but after watching this vid, from Sy Berger no less, I am more confused than ever?

I/one would/could conclude he likely isn't lying, but it does seem hard to believe that the high number cards were in short supply in the mid+ 50's if cases of these cards were just sitting in warehouse somewhere?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCstDCXoLSk

[toppcat]

I'll have to watch that later but I still think it's BS. They never did that with any other inventory and it would be more expensive to hire a scow than carter or just burning it. Don't forget excess 53s were carted and in addition Card Collectors Co was around by the time they would have been dumped.

[irv]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I'll have to watch that later but I still think it's BS. They never did that with any other inventory and it would be more expensive to hire a scow than carter or just burning it. Don't forget excess 53s were carted and in addition ard Collectors Co was around by the time they would have been dumped.

I'll never allude to knowing as much as you do, Toppcat, but this is right from the horse's mouth.

I assume it is a possibility that someone wanted to fabricate a story like this back in the day, but I find it hard to believe Sy would go along with that?

Like I mentioned in that other thread, I originally believed they were dumped as I had nothing else to go on nor to believe, but when someone had close proximity/access to them, as was mentioned in that other thread, it sure makes it hard to believe these weren't dumped until the 60's?

[toppcat]

Irv, sorry that may have come off as vitriolic which was not my intention. Sy got a lot of stuff wrong over the years, such as as the "taffy" going bad with the 51's, which I'm pretty sure was just PR spin to avoid saying they got shut down by Bowman. Why he continued to weave such tales well beyond the need to do so is beyond me. Most of the hobby lore surrounding the pre-1981 era of Topps is fabricated or hopelessly incorrect.

[ALR-bishop]

Maybe Sy had a little of what Brian Williams has. Or like Roger C said of Andy Pettite, he just misremembered

I am surprised no seller has yet tried to sell a beat to hell 52 Mantle reprint as having been recovered from the ocean floor

[7nohitter]

I've often wondered if there are any remnants on the ocean floor. Extreme long shot I would guess.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Irv, sorry that may have come off as vitriolic which was not my intention.

Its hard not to when you are the first person, everytime, to say the prices on highs were a marketing ploy from day one, and they aren't scarce. The whole community, if not 95% of those working on the set, would wholeheartedly disagree. Opinions are fine to have, but this isnt rhe first time you've jumped at the chance to discredit the story and scarcity of the high numbers.

[ALR-bishop]

I am of the opinion the 52 gray back Reisner is not scarce

[pclpads]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I am of the opinion the 52 gray back Reisner is not scarce

But, it is probably more scarce than the 52 gray back Reiser.

[irv]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Irv, sorry that may have come off as vitriolic which was not my intention. Sy got a lot of stuff wrong over the years, such as as the "taffy" going bad with the 51's, which I'm pretty sure was just PR spin to avoid saying they got shut down by Bowman. Why he continued to weave such tales well beyond the need to do so is beyond me. Most of the hobby lore surrounding the pre-1981 era of Topps is fabricated or hopelessly incorrect.

I wasn't thinking that, Toppcat, and sorry if you thought my reply was alluding to that.

I know very little about all the stories over the years and in my quest to learn more, I have found it a daunting task as so many stories exist that seem to dispel the previous ones.

Watching this video, and the fact it is from Sy Berger, I immediately assumed it was correct and truthful, but reading your reply, and others, I have learned, once again, never to assume anything.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Its hard not to when you are the first person, everytime, to say the prices on highs were a marketing ploy from day one, and they aren't scarce. The whole community, if not 95% of those working on the set, would wholeheartedly disagree. Opinions are fine to have, but this isnt rhe first time you've jumped at the chance to discredit the story and scarcity of the high numbers.

Yeah, so?

[Cliff Bowman]

As far as being scarce, 1952 Topps high numbers are plentiful as being compared to many regional issues and Topps test issues. I agree that there is a huge demand for them which explains the high prices, but if someone has the money they could easily purchase every card from 311 to 407 in at least PSA 6, many of them in PSA 7 and PSA 8, on eBay today. I counted thirty cards of 1952 Topps Pee Wee Reese available on eBay right now. In comparison, the stuff I am looking for is never available, and when it does pop up once every five years it is scooped up by a whale.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

As far as being scarce, 1952 Topps high numbers are plentiful as being compared to many regional issues and Topps test issues. I agree that there is a huge demand for them which explains the high prices, but if someone has the money they could easily purchase every card from 311 to 407 in at least PSA 6, many of them in PSA 7 and PSA 8, on eBay today. I counted thirty cards of 1952 Topps Pee Wee Reese available on eBay right now. In comparison, the stuff I am looking for is never available, and when it does pop up once every five years it is scooped up by a whale.

Cliff I agree the 52 hi #s are plentiful in comparison to many other of the lower pop issues you mention. As I have been building this set in PSA 5 or better and am about 80% complete, I have noticed that with many of the highs (and even cards from all series of this set), there are a decent selection available on ebay. However, the reason I find that so many are available are the fixed prices are significantly higher than what the market brings on a similar graded card via auction. For example a centered PSA 4 Reese sold for $566, the least expensive PSA 4 copy available via fixed price is priced at $699.

IMO, there would be far fewer fixed price offerings of these 52 Highs if the listed prices were much more in line with auction results. In other words, the supply is only high because these fixed prices are higher than what the market will bring on these cards. I probably would have finished my set long ago if the fixed price listings were even remotely close to auction prices as I have built my set to this point either via auction wins or by waiting for fixed priced listings to show up at auction type prices.


As far as overall availability, the Reese card has 558 copies graded by PSA (less any resubmits), while most other SP 52 highs have between 400-500 copies graded by PSA.

[toppcat]

Just watched the vid, which thanks for posting Irv, and which was the first time I've seen or heard Sy really talk about the mechanics of the garbage scow. Maybe there is more to it than I've thought previously and he did dump 1.3 million 52 highs. Or maybe he didn't as I still find it odd Topps actually spent the money on a tug & barge vs a straight up incineration as their MO was cheap, cheap, cheap all the time and why would you not trust an incinerator.

But there's still a boatload (pun intended) of them out there and I definitely think they were produced in roughly the same amounts as the semi-highs originally. Survival percentages are another story.

It's not hard to find them 65 years later, that's for sure. You might not like the pricing but they are out there.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

I've often wondered if there are any remnants on the ocean floor. Extreme long shot I would guess.

Since it took decades to find the Titanic, I'm guessing the odds of finding intact or remnants of cases of baseball cards would be infinitely smaller.

In addition, the number of people collecting Titanic memorabilia may even exceed the number of people collecting '52 Topps baseball. Given that, more effort would be made in looking for the Titanic... and it took years.

[Exhibitman]

Berger had been telling the garbage scow story since the 1970s. At least. I tend to believe a consistent eyewitness report over inductive reasoning.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Irv, sorry that may have come off as vitriolic which was not my intention. Sy got a lot of stuff wrong over the years, such as as the "taffy" going bad with the 51's, which I'm pretty sure was just PR spin to avoid saying they got shut down by Bowman. Why he continued to weave such tales well beyond the need to do so is beyond me. Most of the hobby lore surrounding the pre-1981 era of Topps is fabricated or hopelessly incorrect.

I'm siding with you, Dave. As someone who is ancient enough to have eaten that "taffy" back in '51, I can testify that it was so hard and impervious to teeth and saliva, it would probably be "edible" - that is, non-rancid - today. Sy's story telling could be an indication that he was prone to fudging (npi) or dramatizing stuff for the amusing effect it might have on listeners. Maybe that was his simple motive.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

I've often wondered if there are any remnants on the ocean floor. Extreme long shot I would guess.

Sounds like a project that could be pitched to the History Channel...somebody get me John Chatterton's cell...

[Shoebox]

There was a movie I saw that involved trying to prove if the urban legend about a mass landfill dump of thousands of copies of the ET Atari game had actually taken place. It was inconclusive, but the general sense was that it was likely a fiction.

[toppcat]

If anything was dumped, it's long disintegrated.

[irv]

Originally Posted by toppcat

If anything was dumped, it's long disintegrated.

50+ yrs ago or so, I'd say one wouldn't even find a trace even if they knew the exact spot they were dumped.

If anyone has the gumption for such a search, Josh Donaldson might just finance it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsjwRHzGaMg

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Berger had been telling the garbage scow story since the 1970s. At least. I tend to believe a consistent eyewitness report over inductive reasoning.

Depends if Sy was actually there LOL

[campyfan39]

You need to check out netflix "Atari: Game Over".
They DID find a massive trove of ET and other Atari cartridges in that landfill.

Originally Posted by Shoebox

There was a movie I saw that involved trying to prove if the urban legend about a mass landfill dump of thousands of copies of the ET Atari game had actually taken place. It was inconclusive, but the general sense was that it was likely a fiction.

[irv]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

You need to check out netflix "Atari: Game Over".
They DID find a massive trove of ET and other Atari cartridges in that landfill.

I thought I had heard the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t48DB9NRc60
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHXK2mKtu20

[Shoebox]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

You need to check out netflix "Atari: Game Over".
They DID find a massive trove of ET and other Atari cartridges in that landfill.

That was the one I was thinking of. I guess I just didn't accurately remember their conclusions.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Berger had been telling the garbage scow story since the 1970s. At least. I tend to believe a consistent eyewitness report over inductive reasoning.

Agree with Adam. Even in the early articles he has been consistent with this story.

Z

[Republicaninmass]

The FACT that the 52 highs are found in 1953 wrappers mean anything? Maybe "just a few" were still hanging around until then, and ole Sy tried to come up with a story how to move them to store owners, hide them in 53 wrappers. We do know they were at least hanging around until then.

I've always thought the "mistake" of releasing them later in the year was BS, as it has a lot of stars, and mostly filled with World Series competitors, albeit many managers. I feel its Dodger, Yankee, Red Sox, and Giant heavy.

[Cliff Bowman]

I wouldn't doubt at all that they dumped a bunch of them in the ocean sixty five years ago, my Dad told me that is was common to ditch old worn out vehicles in the woods and desolate areas back in the fifties and sixties because there was no market for them and you would have pay to legally get rid of them, and you could easily get away with that back then. I don't buy the theory that the 1952 Topps high numbers are scarce, in my opinion they are relatively plentiful and available, even in high grade. The set is immensely popular and there is a huge demand for it, but like I said before every single high number is available on eBay in multiple copies with many in high grade. You certainly can't say that about 1967 Topps Punch Outs, 1966 Pro's Pizza, or 1982 Topps Blackless.

[ALR-bishop]

Cliff-- I think I heard that Sy had the extras from those 3 loaded aboard the Edmund Fitzgerald

[toppcat]

52 high wrappers I have seen, blue and red, resemble but are not an exact match for the 53 wrappers, also blue and red.

http://toppsarchives.blogspot.com/20...is-not-53.html

[Republicaninmass]

Thanks Dave, lends creedence to leftovers at the end of the year. Are we 100% on them being in Canada?

I know with the 52 gray backs, some thought they were canadian, but that's pretty much been dispelled.

[steve B]

I've always had mixed thoughts about this.

"Old" Inventory was often just shoved to the back of a warehouse back then. In fact it's a practice that continued well into the 80's and 90's although it had minimized by the early 80's. It was especially true for anything the warehouse guy thought might be saleable in some way.
Topps was also mostly in the business of selling new products, so they may not have cared much to have a look at the warehouse even if they were asked. (Or they knew 52 highs brought a premium and "couldn't find any" )

So the "dumped off a barge" didn't make a lot of sense.

But the story stayed pretty consistent over time, and 52 Highs are pretty hard to find compared to the lower series.

Since they weren't printing them themselves, I think it's possible they got a bunch in right about the time they realized sales weren't going to be what they'd hoped.
It's possible they didn't have the space to shift them to the back corner.
It also might be that what got dumped was sheets or bulk packed cards from the printer. Why wrap a product that won't sell? And storing sheets or boxes full of bulk cards might have been a nuisance.

In that view, dumping them makes sense. Having A million plus of something out there is a bit risky. Especially since trash haulers are fairly well known for keeping any really good "finds" - A long and for some well regarded tradition.

53s were hauled away? Maybe by then they realized that if they couldn't move their million+ leftovers almost nobody else could either?

I think it's possible something survived underwater. They were wax wrapped, and pressure might have caused them to seal ...........Well, I can dream anyway. (Possible but very unlikely) Barges tend to use the same spots, so there would be a whole lot of "stuff" to dig through even knowing the exact spot.

Steve B

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

I don't buy the theory that the 1952 Topps high numbers are scarce, in my opinion they are relatively plentiful and available, even in high grade. The set is immensely popular and there is a huge demand for it, but like I said before every single high number is available on eBay in multiple copies with many in high grade. You certainly can't say that about 1967 Topps Punch Outs, 1966 Pro's Pizza, or 1982 Topps Blackless.

I agree, when a 52s Hi # card's population is compared to obscure regional/test issues /t206 Wagner/etc they are indeed not scarce. However, when compared to other regular issue Topps sets (since they are indeed a "regular" issue) from the 50s, the 52 Hi #s are the scarcest (regular) series issued Topps series by far, graded or non-graded. The scarcity of this series is all relative as to what you compare it to.


FWIW, I believe the 52s HIs are swimming with the fish....if they are not swimming with the fish, than what happened to them if they existed at all?

[toppcat]

I want to check Card Collectors Co. catalogs. I'm pretty sure the late 50's ones had no highs then they start reappearing in the early 60's. Not 100% positive I have scans of all the issues from that time frame though so please feel free to post if scans you do.

I'm not 100% on the Canadian angle but do think mid-series 52 grays had some kind of alternate distribution method outside the norm of one cent and five cents packs that year.

I believe Topps had five locations in Brooklyn by 1960: 60 and 134 Broadway, 383 3rd Ave and the two buildings at Bush Terminal (Office on 36th, Factory on 37th). The first three likely were all warehouse space by then as was probably part of one of the Bush Terminal buildings. Lots of stuff could have been hidden and I think they did a big sweep of all inventory in 1965-66 before moving to Duryea, leading to some really awesome fun packs.

[ALR-bishop]

Do not have access to it to post now, but have posted previously a 1967 Card Collectors catalog offering the 52 high numbers for $1 each and $90 for the high series ( $35 for 1-310)

[jakeinge]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Do not have access to it to post now, but have posted previously a 1967 Card Collectors catalog offering the 52 high numbers for $1 each and $90 for the high series ( $35 for 1-310)

I'll take all of the 52 high numbers you have Mr. Card Collector!!

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by steve B

I've always had mixed thoughts about this.

"Old" Inventory was often just shoved to the back of a warehouse back then. In fact it's a practice that continued well into the 80's and 90's although it had minimized by the early 80's. It was especially true for anything the warehouse guy thought might be saleable in some way.
Topps was also mostly in the business of selling new products, so they may not have cared much to have a look at the warehouse even if they were asked. (Or they knew 52 highs brought a premium and "couldn't find any" )

So the "dumped off a barge" didn't make a lot of sense.

But the story stayed pretty consistent over time, and 52 Highs are pretty hard to find compared to the lower series.

Since they weren't printing them themselves, I think it's possible they got a bunch in right about the time they realized sales weren't going to be what they'd hoped.
It's possible they didn't have the space to shift them to the back corner.
It also might be that what got dumped was sheets or bulk packed cards from the printer. Why wrap a product that won't sell? And storing sheets or boxes full of bulk cards might have been a nuisance.

In that view, dumping them makes sense. Having A million plus of something out there is a bit risky. Especially since trash haulers are fairly well known for keeping any really good "finds" - A long and for some well regarded tradition.

53s were hauled away? Maybe by then they realized that if they couldn't move their million+ leftovers almost nobody else could either?

I think it's possible something survived underwater. They were wax wrapped, and pressure might have caused them to seal ...........Well, I can dream anyway. (Possible but very unlikely) Barges tend to use the same spots, so there would be a whole lot of "stuff" to dig through even knowing the exact spot.

Steve B

Steven,

I thought the ink used on '52 high number cards was water soluble. If so there wouldn't be much left of the images even if the cardboard did survive. Hypothetically, might lead to some interesting ghost images on the backs of cards.....


Z

[irv]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Steven,

I thought the ink used on '52 high number cards was water soluble. If so there wouldn't be much left of the images even if the cardboard did survive. Hypothetically, might lead to some interesting ghost images on the backs of cards.....


Z

That is the first time I have heard of that. Are you saying all the series before that were printed using different, non-soluble ink?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Volod

Sounds like a project that could be pitched to the History Channel...somebody get me John Chatterton's cell...

It would probably end up like Geraldo Rivera and Capones safe...

Hosted by TV personality Geraldo Rivera, the special centered on the opening of a secret vault in the Lexington Hotel once owned by noted crime lord Al Capone, which turned out to be empty except for debris.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Leon

It would probably end up like Geraldo Rivera and Capones safe...

Hosted by TV personality Geraldo Rivera, the special centered on the opening of a secret vault in the Lexington Hotel once owned by noted crime lord Al Capone, which turned out to be empty except for debris.

I remember the hype around that. Unbelievable!

[JustinD]

I am sure some of the older crowd remembers the 50s and 60s quite well. I can't fathom in any way why in a time that many homes had incinerators as commonly as ovens that a company would waste the time barging paper product out to sea for dumping.

I do not doubt that they could have been destroyed but I think the dumping story was another of Sy's tall tales because it sounded neat. If there was such a pile he could not move, incinerating would have cost near nothing at the time.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by irv

That is the first time I have heard of that. Are you saying all the series before that were printed using different, non-soluble ink?

No I am not say ing that Irv. I was not sure of the answer.

Z

[glynparson]

The Hi#'s are certainly tougher than any other series today. They are not necessarily tougher in High Grade and are sometimes easier than some other numbers, but overall without regard for condition they are the toughest regular issue non error/variation topps baseball cards to find.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Steven,

I thought the ink used on '52 high number cards was water soluble. If so there wouldn't be much left of the images even if the cardboard did survive. Hypothetically, might lead to some interesting ghost images on the backs of cards.....


Z

If it was, then the series would have to have been printed by some other method than offset lithography. I only have one high number, but didn't see any indication that it was different in any way from a regular 52 Topps.

The process works by having plates that will absorb moisture from water treated so there are areas that repel water that the oil based ink can stick to. So water soluble ink wouldn't work well at all. The new vegetable oil based inks may be water soluble, but at the time they either didn't exist or would have been really unusual.

Steve B

[irv]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I am sure some of the older crowd remembers the 50s and 60s quite well. I can't fathom in any way why in a time that many homes had incinerators as commonly as ovens that a company would waste the time barging paper product out to sea for dumping.

I do not doubt that they could have been destroyed but I think the dumping story was another of Sy's tall tales because it sounded neat. If there was such a pile he could not move, incinerating would have cost near nothing at the time.

At the 8:00 minute mark the interviewer asks him about not trusting the incinerator. Imo, the interviewer, based on his tone, also finds this hard to digest but with the obvious edits throughout, who knows what is going on?

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

No I am not saying that Irv. I was not sure of the answer.

Z

Sorry, Zach, if it came across like that? I wasn't insinuating you were. I had just never heard that before and was wondering if you heard something different about the first few series?

[Zach Wheat]

Irv, sorry was travelling. I hate it when work gets in the way of fun. I am not stating the series were printed the same. My experience comes from a 19512 Topps high number card that I smudged the ink and then I realized the card had gotten a drop of water spilled on it.

I will see if I can find the card and scan it.....

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Irv, sorry was travelling. I hate it when work gets in the way of fun. I am not stating the series were printed the same. My experience comes from a 19512 Topps high number card that I smudged the ink and then I realized the card had gotten a drop of water spilled on it.

I will see if I can find the card and scan it.....

That is weird, are you sure it is not a home made inkjet printer card? They will do that.

[toppcat]

My latest post is up on this subject (and Topps Vennies in general): http://toppsarchives.blogspot.com/20...-dimaggio.html

[irv]

Originally Posted by toppcat

My latest post is up on this subject (and Topps Vennies in general): http://toppsarchives.blogspot.com/20...-dimaggio.html

Good read, Dave!

Thanks for posting.

If you have time, and don't mind, I'd love to see the scans of your card that received the water droplet.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by irv

If you have time, and don't mind, I'd love to see the scans of your card that received the water droplet.

Not mine, another poster's methinks but I'd like to see it too.