National - autographs

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Oh no...I've invoked Bob.

Sales tax is charged to the buyer, so what does it have to do with tax evasion?

Bob...Back to the point. It's just one of several examples of an issue you'd expect a reasonable person to lament...

"Damn, that $100 blank I buy is now $108 with tax!"..."My good deal, isn't so good any more!" If you haven't felt that pinch in the last couple years, then maybe you have more money than the rest of us. A post like this would immediately be attacked by a dozen or so contrarian submissives (kind of like you did by flying off to the irrelevant tangent of tax evasion, though I don't consider you one of the contrarian submissives, just a good example in this case) who extoll the importance of internet sales tax, patting themselves on the back for collecting sales tax since the dawn of sales (and use tax too!) and calling the poster a no-nothing, criminal and bad American in the process.

To test the theory...Start a thread with the subject line "PSA, the self proclaimed industry leading card grading service can't identify an altered card" and watch what happens.

Rob,

LOL You didn't invoke anything, I just didn't get or understand the inclusion about internet sales taxes with your other points. I completely agree with you that those topics you mentioned, including internet sales taxes, will always get people riled up to go online and complain. But your original post talked about people being "loyal and subservient to" and "defending" those things, especially internet sales tax. When you use the term "defend", I would normally associate that with something a person would be favorable of or for, not something they would be against and complaining about. Thus, my initial confusion, and the reason for my question.

Quote "Then again, some loyal and subservient people just love to defend...whether its incompetent grading companies, internet sales tax, exorbitant buyer's premiums or apparently expensive autographs...just to name a few." Unquote

Based on your follow-up post, I now know what you were referring to. Just didn't come across well to me the way you stated it originally.

In regards to the tax evasion comment, sales taxes are not something anyone has a choice about. If you are in a state that has sales taxes, you are subject to them, period. And, ALL states with sales taxes also have a second part to those laws called "Use Taxes". That is the part of the law that says if you buy something, and the seller didn't charge you sales tax for whatever reason, then YOU are supposed to report and pay the sales/use tax to the state yourself. There is technically no option or choice you can otherwise make, without being guilty of sales/use tax evasion. In your example you mentioned someone complaining about having to pay $108 instead of just $100 because they are now being charged sales tax. But the buyer was supposed to have been paying that sales tax all along as use tax. Because they are now complaining about it, it is pretty obvious they weren't properly paying the use tax due all along like they were supposed to, until the internet forced them to finally comply with the sales/use tax laws. And thus, what they are really complaining about is that they can no longer be a sales tax cheat, and had been guilty of sales tax evasion all along. That is what your comment about internet sales tax has to do with tax evasion.

[Oscar_Stanage]

lol, as the author of this thread, I have an announcement....

As a novice, first timer National attendee I asked a simple question about autos... I got insulted and then the thread turned into an all out referendum on autographing.

Therefore, I am pleased to announce that I just paid $99.99 for a Larry Walker autograph- not just on any card- I ponied up an extra $20 just so I can get my 1990 Leaf rookie or upper deck card signed (still not sure which), both of which I have kept in pristine condition since I opened the packs 32 years ago.

I will be savoring every minute of a great experience. If anyone wants to grab a beer and enjoy my card, come find me.

[bigfanNY]

Nice Oscar I hope you will enjoy the experience. I paid for a couple tickets today and sent in for a Reggie Jackson. Reggie is signing Saturday and I think Wed Thur and Friday will be enough.

[Snapolit1]

Ha. enjoy. meeting one of your heroes and having a minute to chat is an amazing experience. feel like a kid again.


QUOTE=Oscar_Stanage;2240437]lol, as the author of this thread, I have an announcement....

As a novice, first timer National attendee I asked a simple question about autos... I got insulted and then the thread turned into an all out referendum on autographing.

Therefore, I am pleased to announce that I just paid $99.99 for a Larry Walker autograph- not just on any card- I ponied up an extra $20 just so I can get my 1990 Leaf rookie or upper deck card signed (still not sure which), both of which I have kept in pristine condition since I opened the packs 32 years ago.

I will be savoring every minute of a great experience. If anyone wants to grab a beer and enjoy my card, come find me.[/QUOTE]

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by BobC

Rob,

LOL You didn't invoke anything, I just didn't get or understand the inclusion about internet sales taxes with your other points. I completely agree with you that those topics you mentioned, including internet sales taxes, will always get people riled up to go online and complain. But your original post talked about people being "loyal and subservient to" and "defending" those things, especially internet sales tax. When you use the term "defend", I would normally associate that with something a person would be favorable of or for, not something they would be against and complaining about. Thus, my initial confusion, and the reason for my question.

Quote "Then again, some loyal and subservient people just love to defend...whether its incompetent grading companies, internet sales tax, exorbitant buyer's premiums or apparently expensive autographs...just to name a few." Unquote

Based on your follow-up post, I now know what you were referring to. Just didn't come across well to me the way you stated it originally.

In regards to the tax evasion comment, sales taxes are not something anyone has a choice about. If you are in a state that has sales taxes, you are subject to them, period. And, ALL states with sales taxes also have a second part to those laws called "Use Taxes". That is the part of the law that says if you buy something, and the seller didn't charge you sales tax for whatever reason, then YOU are supposed to report and pay the sales/use tax to the state yourself. There is technically no option or choice you can otherwise make, without being guilty of sales/use tax evasion. In your example you mentioned someone complaining about having to pay $108 instead of just $100 because they are now being charged sales tax. But the buyer was supposed to have been paying that sales tax all along as use tax. Because they are now complaining about it, it is pretty obvious they weren't properly paying the use tax due all along like they were supposed to, until the internet forced them to finally comply with the sales/use tax laws. And thus, what they are really complaining about is that they can no longer be a sales tax cheat, and had been guilty of sales tax evasion all along. That is what your comment about internet sales tax has to do with tax evasion.

Gotcha Bob...I think you read too much into it but no worries. I see where you're coming from.

The last thing I want to do is turn this into another tax thread, because that really has nothing to do with my previous reply (So you're clear...I was just citing examples of things people may complain about and the typical reaction to those things by some here)....

...but as for your check mate retort on use tax, letter of the law aside...I think you're applying a square peg explanation to a round hole problem. Unless you believe that every collector on this forum and in this country has been self reporting their hobby purchases. I find it hard to believe.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Gotcha Bob...I think you read too much into it but no worries. I see where you're coming from.

The last thing I want to do is turn this into another tax thread, because that really has nothing to do with my previous reply (So you're clear...I was just citing examples of things people may complain about and the typical reaction to those things by some here)....

...but as for your check mate retort on use tax, letter of the law aside...I think you're applying a square peg explanation to a round hole problem. Unless you believe that every collector on this forum and in this country has been self reporting their hobby purchases. I find it hard to believe.

Rob,

Oh, Hell no, I am very much aware that virtually no one voluntarily pays the use taxes they are supposed to. LOL It is just that I always laugh when people complain about how internet sellers are now charging them sales tax. Most of them don't realize they were supposed to be paying it all along. So, the truth is, when someone like Ebay starts collecting and remitting the sales taxes for them, they should actually be thanking the online seller because now they no longer have to put up with the hassle and work of figuring out what they owed for a use tax and then having to figure out how to get the money to the state. Instead, they mostly just complain about it, probably because they never knew any better. And then some get mad at me for finally telling them, probably because they don't like finding out they's been guilty of sales tax evasion for years.

So getting back to the actual topic, autographs, I don't judge anyone for what they like to collect. As long as they're not hurting/harming anyone with what they do, and aren't breaking any laws, I say go for it. Autographs are a completely different animal than cards though. And the prices that some modern players charge is absolutely ridiculous. I understand that some players get pissed off at flippers and dealers who want to take advantage of them solely to make a buck. But at the same point in time, those athletes should be kissing the collective asses of all fans. In today's world they make ridiculous amounts of money for playing games that a lot of us would have given our right testicle (and maybe the left one as well) to be able to play professionally and make a living doing. Those that do make the big leagues should be thanking the fans and trying to interact and take care of them as much as possible. There are some players that realize this and do try to take care of their fans. Then there are others who seemingly are only worried about their "brand" and how much they can make and pull in to expand their own empire. These types often assume everyone else is just trying to take advantage and make money off of them, and kind of quickly forget that if it wasn't for the fans to start with, they'd never be in the place they then found themselves in, with the opportunity, influence, and money, they now have. I liked it better when ballplayers lived in the neighborhoods, and interacted with their neighbors and fans, just like real people. And when they actually had to find other work in the off seasons to help pay their bills and living expenses. It made the game more relatable to the common person and fan, and was the cornerstone and foundation of why it was America's pastime. It really isn't anymore though. That kind of thinking died, along with the days when you'd drive around in the Summer and see kids having pickup ballgames on fields and in parks everywhere. Kids don't really seem to do that anymore, certainly not like they used to.

And with the profit motive behind autographs, the estimate as to what percentage of autographs in the hobby that are fake has always been astronomical. The truth is, the only true way to know for certain that an autograph is real is to actually have that player sign it for you in person.....period. And using TPGs to authenticate autographs is a joke. We hear complaining about how the TPGs are terrible and so inconsistent at grading, what makes anyone think they're any better at authenticating autographs? Truth is they aren't, and are likely even worse at autographs. The fact that no one ever signs their name exactly the same way twice should tell you all you need to know about the ability of anyone to really be able to definitively say with 100% accuracy that some specific person did sign something, unless they actually saw them sign it themselves, in person.

But like everything else it seems. the business side of the hobby takes over, and people are out to make as much money as they can off of others. I guess going along with Mom, apple pie, and baseball, the capitalistic way of doing business to make every last red cent you can off of people is as American as it comes. And if someone has the funds to pay for something that they like to collect, good for them. If that is what they enjoy and makes them happy, great. Belittling or putting down someone for what they like to collect, that isn't harming you or breaking the law, is just ridiculous. As many have said, to each his/her own, and collect what you like.

I hope the OP gets all the autographs he can, and wants, at the National, and in so doing has the opportunity to meet and maybe even talk for a few seconds at least, to the various stars and people he looks up to and is having sign for him. He obviously just wasn't familiar with how they work the autograph signings at the National. Giving him some advice and guidance was what he needed, and what I thought this forum basically stood for, helping and assisting each other in our collecting. Not in being critical and putting down someone's intelligence for doing what they like to do. Good luck to the OP at the National.

[Fballguy]

Great points as always Bob. I've never viewed an autograph as a commodity, though I know these days it is. I'd never buy an autographed jersey, card or photo of a current (or recent past) player because it doesn't mean anything to me...unless maybe I got it in person. An autograph's value, in my mind anyway, is that it commemorates a memory or an experience. If it doesn't come with that, it loses value to me. All of the autographs in my collection (with exception of some long dead players and coaches from the 40's and 50s), I got in person at training camps, hotels and stadiums. I've never thought of their monetary value because those memories are priceless. And I still stand by my comment that it isn't hard to get NFL players autographs in the stadium. I've done it many times.

It's hard to not get cynical when you see what some players are charging for their autograph, especially when they're modern players making modern salaries. If it's a guy from the 60's or 70s, I get it. But is Tom Brady so hard up he needs to charge hundreds if not thousands for his signature? Doesn't his wife give him an allowance?

[Fballguy]

Getting this thread back on point...Regarding National Autographs. How quickly do the lines move? I don't know if I can pass up the opportunity to meet Jack Youngblood, but I don't want to stand in line for two hours of my day either.

Any ideas?