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  #101  
Old 09-25-2006, 01:53 PM
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Default Who can you compare Derek Jeter going back to 1869.

Posted By: Bob

Since Lloyd was commonly referred to as the "Black Honus Wagner," I'd have to take him over Jeter. When asked about this comparison, Wagner replied it was a real compliment to be compared to Lloyd.

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Old 09-25-2006, 03:06 PM
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Default Who can you compare Derek Jeter going back to 1869.

Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

I think what "makes Jeter Jeter" is not really his individual stats but his winning. Although he will have to spend sopme more time excelling to warrant fair statistical comparion with the 3000 hit crew (who he will probably join at some point), his presence at the center of the Yankees' juggernaut the past 10+ years is what makes him great.

That's why I compare him to Rizutto (favorably) and Berra (less favorably). He was and is more essential to the Yankees that Rizutto was except (perhaps) for Scooter's MVP season. Jeter is not generally as integral to Yankees' dynasty from the late 40's to the early 60's as Berra.

I also mentioned some of the other top SS in major league history and where I think Jeter will stand in that pecking order by the ned of his career. Wagner (and surely Pop Lloyd in the Negro Leagues) I think are out of Jeter's league. Both are among the best, ever at any position. Banks, Arky Vaughan and Ripken I think are who he will ultimately be evaluated against.
Banks played most of his career at 1B but his MVP season were as a shortstop, Ripken won MVPs while he was playing all of those games and hit for power (and probably fielded) much better than Jeter. Vaughan is perhaps statistically even more impressive than Ripken. His lifetime average was .318, he never struck out and he walked alot. The low strikeout numbers and high OBA were only recently recognized as especially meaningful Stats with the advent of SABR, and the writings of Bill James (who has Vaughan as the #2 SS of all-time in his Historical Abstract) And, of course, Arky didn't play in New York which made him a lesser name during and right after his career.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/vaughar01.shtml

Although, as Jay notes, he apparently was not held in such great esteem by the writers since his inducution into Cooperstown was not immediate. However, Vaughan missed some crucial years due to WWII and passed away very young (actually before he was even eligible for the HOF) which might also have dimmed his election prospects. The writers missed alot of great players and did not always elect even the most obvious great players on their first ballot (Joe DiMaggio and Jimmy Foxx, who were contemporaries of Vaughan, for example).

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