What did we do before graded cards?????

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Posted By: Mike Williams 

Great, constructive debate over the SGC "authentic" topic!

I'm now wondering what we all did BEFORE there was such a business as card grading? It seems to me that a great deal of our hobby relies so much on the slabbed label, that we've given up the right to grade the card ourselves. The argument that slabbed cards deemed authentic (not graded) would cause more debate on condition really is no different than the situation we have now. How many times has a seller made reference to a graded card being "undergraded.....should have been X"? I'm guilty of this and I'm more than sure everyone on this board has seen this....or participate in it.

Grading will always be subjective....it's the sellers responsibility to accurately describe a card, it's the buyers responsibility to ask questions. This will never be a science, but I think we've grown too dependent on a label. OK....kick my butt now

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Posted By: Jay Miller

It is like so many other things in our society. People have lost the ability to do things for themselves and have to delegate the task to others. People need to be able to figure out for themselves if a card is doctored or not. Ideally, you should know more about the cards you collect than the guy at SGC or PSA. I find it interesting that when collecting was a hobby and the word investment never entered into the same sentence as baseball card, collectors knew alot about what they collected. Now that serious money is being spent on these little pieces of cardboard I believe the average collector knows less about what he collects. Seems a little backwards.

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Posted By: runscott

I think all these board discussions have helped each of us make our minds up how to deal with the fact that "card grading" isn't going away.

I use the following rules:

1)buy the card,not the holder
2)be aware that some buyers will purchase your card with the intent of getting it graded, and be prepared to deal with it.
3)sell the card, not the holder.i.e-detailed descriptions, even of slabbed cards
4)crack 'em out unless I plan to re-sell (some people like them in slabs), or if I am using the holder for temporary protection
5)don't grade my cards on ebay - give detailed descriptions and detailed scans.
6)If I'm selling from a list without pictures, grade the card to the best of my ability and offer refunds
7)save those SGC black inserts for framed card displays - very cool.

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Posted By: leon

You know I value your opinion very highly in these matters. With that being said how is it someone like myself, that got addicted quickly and recently, could have enough knowledge to spend big bucks on cards and still have some comfort the card is not doctored? I guess I could ask friends and associates? What I am saying is that when I spend good money on a card I like to have a trusted 3rd party tell me if they can spot anything I can't. The grading companies (at least SGC)are pretty good at that. I can more decide what grade I think it is than I can see the doctoring that might be hiding.....regards

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Posted By: Jay Miller

The answer is very simple. One should not spend big money on cards till they are comfortable that they understand what they are buying. To my way of thinking, acquiring the knowledge about your chosen area of interest is many times more enjoyable and rewarding than actually getting the cards. You can buy and sell cards many times over but the knowledge is yours forever.

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Posted By: leon

I am soaking in the knowledge as fast as I can but there's so dang much info. I got the Sotheby's Halper catalogues yesterday. I have stacks of other catalogues. I like having the cards and learning about the history of the players on them. Very enjoyable. I like collecting. I like helping fellow collectors. What more can I say? regards

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Posted By: petecld

Amen.

I have always felt the primary appeal of the grading company was to the investor who doesn't take the time or just doesn't care about what they are buying and just about the cost.

They can serve new collectors who are learning and buying as they learn if they can be trusted but that trust seems to erode more and more at every new developement.

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Posted By: leon

When you lump everyone into one basket you miss the boat. Grading companies might be for investors but I tend to use them for what I have been preaching. "A 3rd party" unbiased opinion of doctoring. That is what collectors use them for. I am a collector and could care less about investors that are here for only a profit. With what you said I guess you aren't too concerned with the value of your cards either? I have not had ANY trust eroded from SGC...quite to the contrary I trust them MORE THAN ALMOST ANY DEALER OR PERSON I AM BUYING FROM. They are gaining more of my trust the longer I talk about it too. I won't name names but I can tell you that some that I have bought from (and consider friends) definitely overgrade/hype their cards. Want me to name some names? Just look on this board and you will see many. Put that in your pipe and smoke it !!...yes, I am starting to get a little agitated about all of you friggin experts (although maybe not you) that sell cards and say they are one thing when you know they are another ESPECIALLY when dealing with folks like myself that have been doing this 1/5 the time of a lot of folks !!!!..hard to take advantage of an expert isn't it? Much harder than taking advantage of Leon isn't it.. (but I will be there soon).....and best regards

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Posted By: jay behrens

When I got into the hobby back in 1980 I didn't go out buy high dollar items right away. It wasn't until 1982 that I first spent over $100 on a single card. For those that were around then, you know just how much that was to pay for card back then.

No matter what you collect, you should fully research the subject before laying out large sums of cash for a single item. The con artists rely on people not doing their homewark in order to get your money from you. There is also no substitute for literally handling thousands of cards. I was lucky enough to have Ron Oser and Bill Bosert let me work behind thier tables for then at Willow Grove and other shows, and got my 'hands on' experience with them. Just knowing the feel of a card goes a long way in helping you determine if a card is legit or not.

Personally, I don't like slabbed cards becuase I like holding my cards and being able to fully examine them. Grading companies came about because of 'Wall Stree' types that were just looking to make a buck on high ticket items but didn't want to do the research. I'd like to see them do thier job that way, lol.

I have gone the route Scott has in that when I sell cards on eBay, I do not list a grade, just a detailed description and a scan becuase grading is so subjective.

Jay

Jay

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Posted By: petecld

Thank God for slow Friday afternoons, huh!

First off, I never said that there was only ONE reason for people to use grading services but be realistic. If a entombed card sells for 4x to 5x what an ungraded cards does - come on. For the record, I don't think all submitters do so JUST for the money and I have given cards to SGC for the exact same reasons you have.

<<With what you said I guess you aren't too concerned with the value of your cards either?>>

To an extant, some but it isn't my primary concern. I'd like to know that if, God forbid, an emergency arose and I needed some money I could sell my cards for roughly what I put into them but I don't EXPECT it. I'm not planning my retirement on my card collection.

I'm glad you have the time to talk to SGC directly. I'm glad that the time spent has improved your view of them but since not everyone has the luxury - don't take the SGC criticism personally. SGC's refusal to respond on this board to OTHER's concerns and questions does nothing to help OTHERS develop that same relationship with the company you have. The key part in the word "relationship" is "relate". Relating is a two way street.

<<I won't name names but I can tell you that some that I have bought from (and consider friends) definitely overgrade/hype their cards. Want me to name some names?>>

Hell, yes!!! Just kidding, like I said, it's a slow afternoon.

<<Put that in your pipe and smoke it !!...>> YES, SIR!

Obviously you have had some bad experience with board users and yet you say you consider them friends. Interesting?

I'm pretty realistic. I have friendly relationships with some of the people I buy cards from but I also know that these are BUSINESS relationships. At my most pessimistic I realize that unless I am buying a card - I won't hear from them and that is fine. I don't expect to. BUT, I did get a holiday card from SCP one year. A couple of people have become personal friendships and I am proud of that.

You are a slave to your passions my friend - which is pretty much the definition of a collector - and I admire you for that.

As always - Best Regards.

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Posted By: leon

ok fine.....you are right.....very slow day in sales...so time to jabber....dang I can't piss you off can I? You are correct that most are business relationships. I do speak to several board members on the phone fairly regularly though. I consider folks I talk to on the phone frequently friends. Maybe not my best friend but I care about them and I think they care a little in return...Scott B. is my mentor (sorry Scott) and I see him on a semi-regular basis. (like tomorrow)....I speak to BCD quite a bit too and email with him almost every day....loaded canon, passionate about the hobby and life, and very knowledgable...and a very caring person.....I speak with Jay to just see how things are going...I speak with Doug to see how things are going....I am not speaking with these folks just to try to further my own best interests...I speak with them because we have the hobby in common and I like them......I am 40 so I hope I am not naive in my thinking.....money is money though so I do try to be careful for my own good.....ain't quite broke yet (knock on wood)....so guess I am doing ok....best regards

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Posted By: Andy Baran

I feel left out.

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Posted By: leon

ANDY is a friend too best regards all...time to go get my a** kicked in racketball...

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Posted By: warshawlaw

We went to shows and bought only those cards we could handle is what we did.

Given everything I’ve seen and said here and in articles I've written, you might think I am against slabbing. I am not. To me it has a number of profoundly useful purposes:

1. Raising sales prices. I first got interested in slabbing cards for resale. Before it got passe, slabbing was like minting money. I could buy collections at fractions of the raw Beckett price, send them into PSA, and it was like hitting the Lotto when a card that I bought for 75% of Beckett's near mint price came back an 8 or a 9 and could be flipped for several times what I paid for it. Talk about leveraging trades . . .

2. Bringing some level of consistency to mail order. Before slabbing I got ****ed regularly on mail order purchases, which is why I basically stopped making them for a couple of years. I probably returned three out of every four lots I bought. I have had one complaint with a graded card, and it was a piece of **** from PRO that I bought against my better judgment. I have yet to have one of the ubiquitous gross condition blows (such as the creased near mint card) that I seemed to buy every damn time.

3. Insurance: Ever had your cards stolen or damaged by a disaster? I have, and it sucks, which is why I now pay the "vig" and insure my collection. If I am ever forced to prove up the content and quality of my collection with the insurer (a realistic possibility here in earthquake country), I like my chances in court a lot better with a list of graded cards with serial numbers.

4. I like the display that SGC slabs make for the cards, especially the N and T cards. Heck, I just spent $10 to grade my N266 type card even though I knew it was only in "good" condition and won't sell it, just to have it in a slab with a nice label that I could display.

5. Sometimes I am just stumped as to how to grade a particular card and having a relatively cheap third party opinion can really help. For example, I never know how to grade a card with a "chip" in a leaf finish, like the edge of a T205, or what to do for minor reverse paper loss on an N card. For $10 I can get a decent second opinion.

My bottom line is that if I do not feel 100% comfortable with the card as graded, I turn it down or send it back. As a lay expert in the field, the odds are that if the card does not seem right to me, it is no good. The grading services could go a long way to increasing their credibility by voluntarily taking responsibility for their own actions. How about a straightforward money back guarantee that if the card they grade is fake or altered, the service will buy it back from the victimized collector? SGC made that offer to Keith Olbermann and PSA did it for Andy Baran's fake Ruth rookie.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

I was only kidding.