Chicago Union Giants Negro Postcard

[Shoeless Moe]

This one just shot up.....

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...84.m1438.l2765

[bbpostcards]

Here's one of the 1908 Chicago Union Giants. An interesting pose and composition. Also note the equipment at their feet.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Figured this one would show up on here, thought it would wait until the auction ended however..........

[Runscott]

Joe Greene's in both, plus the second guy from the front. Not sure about the rest, but Tom Washington caught two games in a 1909 DH in Buxton,IA and caught nearly every game that year, and I don't see him in either of these postcards. My best guess is 1908.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Nice postcard and rarely seen but price seems very high to me. I think the fact that there was no significant price jump in the last minute is a telling story.........

[dell webb]

It's earlier in the 1907 season. Will McMurray second from right Joined the St. Paul Gophers in late August early September.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by dell webb

It's earlier in the 1907 season. Will McMurray second from right Joined the St. Paul Gophers in late August early September.

That actually makes more sense, since there are so many differences between the 'new' one on ebay, and the one shown above. Also, the 'new' one appears to show Will Horn at top left, but I haven't been able to find any evidence that he played for them during that time.

[baseballart]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Nice postcard and rarely seen but price seems very high to me. I think the fact that there was no significant price jump in the last minute is a telling story.........

Phil

I have no expertise in this area, but what makes the lack of a signiicant price jump in the last minute telling? There were three bidders over $2,000. One bid only in the last couple of minutes, raising it $200 or so. One entered a high and eventual winning bid early and the other bidder bid a number of times to try and top it. It may not be the best strategy not to snipe, but I'm not sure how this would say this was an overvalued sale?

Max

[bcbgcbrcb]

Max:

I think the postcard sold for way too much regardless of the bidding startegy, would you agree with that? I understand that early Negro League items are scarce and this one was really nice but no major players as far as I could tell and I have looked at lots of these photos from the same era.

My point with the lack of late bids was that most e-bay bidders understand that, more times than not, just about all major items on e-bay jump in price multiple times in the last few seconds. I think this auction was a either a case of mistaken player ID(s) on the part of one more or more bidders or others saw the initial bidding action which was unusually high that early in the auction and figured the postcard must be something significant and jumped in as well.

Just my opinion, maybe if the winner was a Net 54 member, they will chime in with their rationale.

[Runscott]

They were one of the major black semi-pro teams out of Chicago during this period - nowhere near the best, but still decent.

The card is more than scarce - it's probably unique. Given that, I'm not surprised it passed $2K. If I had been able to i.d. a couple of players in the card as guys I'm looking for better photos of, I would have gone $2K (and still lost )

[mannybb24]

Its a fantastic and possibly unique postcard and that is why I took a run at it.
Yes, that is me with the feedback of 455, driving up the price My intentions was to snipe it before I went to bed but thought I'd see where the highest bid topped off before doing so but I just kept getting outbid.
I told myself when I first noticed it up for bids that I wasn't going any more than 2k on it since we do have Hake's next week and REA around the corner and many other holes to fill in my collection but to add something like this PC would've been pretty sweet.

Once I got it up to $2150, I decided to hang her up and go to bed without a snipe thinking the highest bidder had a max. bid of 3k or so.
I thought the price was right, compare that one to the one that was in Hake's a few auctions ago, another CUG RPPC:

http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?Auction=204&ItemNo=107036

That's a pretty nice postcard as well (Randolph is about 20 minutes away from my house) but at 3.6k, I'd rather have the one on EBay.

Scott, you are right, that is Will Horn standing next to Jack Johnson. I'm pretty sure Horn is wearing a Leland Giants uniform so you can make an educated guess that he was probably on loan the day they took this picture.

As far as not having any HOF players pictured, who cares. I think too many people get caught up with all this HOF BS, I don't need some committee to tell me who I can and can not collect, especially when it comes to black and latin baseball.

Sorry for the long post
Take it easy people
Steve

[JeremyW]

A board member on the card side has a postcard that is very similar to this Ebay PC. It appears to be taken the same day only the players are shifted around. If you Google "collectors quest negro league postcard" it will be at the top of the search. Sorry- I don't know how to link it. It appears to be dated 1911 on the back, but I'm not certain. Very cool postcards.

[mannybb24]

http://www.collectorsquest.com/colle...eague-postcard

[bcbgcbrcb]

For that kind of money, I would still like to see a Bruce Petway, Charles Grant, Home Run Johnson, Spot Poles, etc. Does not have to be a HOF'er but at least one really significant player. It's not my money though, people can spend their own money on whatever they like.

[WillowGrove]

Originally Posted by mannybb24

Its a fantastic and possibly unique postcard and that is why I took a run at it.
Yes, that is me with the feedback of 455, driving up the price My intentions was to snipe it before I went to bed but thought I'd see where the highest bid topped off before doing so but I just kept getting outbid.

Steve

Well you gave it a good shot.

I don't collect Negro League items but I sure as heck collect vintage stuff that is cool and this card sure was that. My collecting goal is to have one card of each HOFer so I dug in and did some research to see if Pop Lloyd or any other early ones were in there. Many of you guys could probably tell from just a quick scan of the card!

In doing my research I got a much better appreciation on the rarity of the card and why it was so special. As I just said to my wife - I think the guys who collect negro league stuff must think of these postcards as amazing little glimpses into a world that was not chronicled or captured nearly as much as MLB - it's part of America's history as well as bb history and is just interesting.

Anyway - good stuff. sorry you didn't win it Steve.

peter

[bbpostcards]

Speaking of Petway et al., the players here are thought to be, left to right, Bill Gatewood; Hurley McNair; Dick Whitworth; Pete Hill; Bruce Petway; Harry Bauchman; Walter Ball; Fred Hutchinson; Pete Duncan; Louis Santop (behind Duncan); Rube Foster; Horace Jenkins; Frank Wickware; Bill Francis; Jesse Barber. The hotel they are standing in front of still stands. Note the equipment bag and cases. For a better look at a sharper image and a little history about the postcard, see http://www.sportingoregon.com/p56492...61da#h432a61da

[mannybb24]

Unfortunately Phil, you can not find a photo or postcard with any of those guys on them for less than 5k now days so for little guys like myself that don't get caught up with "names", finding items like this postcard are true diamonds in the rough.

[mannybb24]

Thanks Peter, better luck next time I guess.
I look at it this way, by not winning the CUG postcard, I'll take the cash and put it towards Hake's.........it's all good, no sweat off my back.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Good luck with Hake's, Steve

[mannybb24]

Thanks Phil, you too!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mannybb24

Scott, you are right, that is Will Horn standing next to Jack Johnson. I'm pretty sure Horn is wearing a Leland Giants uniform so you can make an educated guess that he was probably on loan the day they took this picture
.....

Steve

Steve, do you feel sure that is Topeka Jack Johnson? I think it does look similar to the guy labeled 'Chappie' Johnson and then later 'Topeka' Jack Johnson in the 1905 Union Giants postcard, but I never got how anyone was so certain that one was Jack Johnson. He was basically a Kansas City guy and tied closely to business in both the Kansas and Missouri cities, and I haven't seen any evidence that he played anywhere else.

If this really is him, then it's the best photo we have of 'Topeka Jack' Johnson.

Edited to add: ...and also of Will Horn, and possibly Joe Greene as well. That's arguably best-existing-photos of three better-than-average black players, and we haven't even i.d'd the rest of the team yet.

[mannybb24]

Scott
I never feel good about my id's.
I remembered Agate Type did an article/blog about Topeka Jack and a Union Giants photo awhile back so I went back to find it.
After comparing the two photos they had plus seamheads database shows another headshot of what they identify as Johnson, I came to conclusion in my mind that it was him.
Is it 100% definitely him? I wish I can say for certain but I can't but if this is really the 1907 team, there's a really good chance that it is him.

By the way, the guy with the mustache is George Hopkins.

Steve

[Runscott]

Gary simply stated that Topeka Jack was in the 1905 photo - he didn't explain his reasoning. I asked him a year or so back if he had any clear images of Johnson, and the ones on his website were it.

Also, the images of Johnson with the KC,KS Giants aren't clear enough to use as i.d.'s. I even looked up photos of the fight between Jack Johnson and 'Topeka' Jack Johnson at Leavenworth prison, and those were inconclusive as well.

As much as 'Topeka' Jack contributed to 'The Freeman', you'd think there would be a photo of him in one of the issues.

[Runscott]

Here is the 'Johnson' from the 1907-ish postcard, next to the two images from the 1905 Chi Union Giants that Gary i.d.'s as Topeka Jack. I'm not seeing a match.

I will do some research and revisit this - it's going to take microfiche research in a few small-town midwest libraries, but it's fairly easy to nail down this stuff if you have the time and patience.

[Runscott]

Just for grins, here are the only two photos I know of, from November 25, 1920, when Jack Johnson boxed two matches in Leavenworth prison. I believe the first photo shows him fighting 'Topeka Jack' Johnson, with his other opponent (Frank Owens) standing to the right. The photo to the right shows him with Owens as well. But I could have Topeka Jack and Owen switched Johnson fought Owens first, and beat him up badly, so it doesn't make sense that he would be standing around for the other fight. According to the papers, Owens weighed 227 pounds, and Topeka Jack Johnson weighed 210.

(This occurred Thanksgiving Day, 1920, whereas the postcard images were taken 13 years earlier).

Topeka Jack Johnson, whose name, wrote Mark Ribowsky in "A Complete History of the Negro Leagues, 1884 to 1955," "wasn't Jack Johnson at all until he stole it from the mountainous black prizefighter who won the heavyweight title on the day after Christmas in 1908."

Topeka Jack was a prizefighter, too, albeit one of limited success in the ring. The two Johnsons also knew each other, as Topeka Jack was described by the Leavenworth Times in a Nov. 25, 1920, story as a former sparring partner of the champ.

[mannybb24]

This is the headshot from SeamHeads:

[mannybb24]

I don't have anything else to add right now other than I do know who the proud new owner of this postcard is and I have just sent him an email to see what his thoughts are.
And no, he is not a member of this board so that is why we have not heard from the winner as of yet but I'll let you know if he knows any new details about the piece as soon I can.

Steve

[baseballart]

Originally Posted by mannybb24

Its a fantastic and possibly unique postcard and that is why I took a run at it.
...

As far as not having any HOF players pictured, who cares. I think too many people get caught up with all this HOF BS, I don't need some committee to tell me who I can and can not collect, especially when it comes to black and latin baseball.

Sorry for the long post
Take it easy people
Steve

Steve

I agree with you on the postcard. For me, I really enjoy finding postcards of local minor league teams and players, and prefer collecting those to major league stars.

However, I must admit my jaw dropped when the woman brought in the panorama photos to the 2007 SABR meeting I was attending here in Vancouver, including the famous $30K one of the Chicago American Giants, with all the hall of famers

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...2012/1175.html

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mannybb24

This is the headshot from SeamHeads:

That looks like the same guy from the recent ebay postcard. But again - I would want to know 'why' they decided it was Johnson. I'm sure there's some good logic, but I haven't seen it. Simply searching for the word 'Topeka' at Seamheads.com yielded nothing. How did you locate this photo?

[mannybb24]

Scott, here's a link to Seamheads that will hopefully help:

http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/player.php?ID=1328

Steve

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mannybb24

Scott, here's a link to Seamheads that will hopefully help:

http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/player.php?ID=1328

Steve

Thanks Steve. I checked the page and it looks like they are basing their i.d. on a single box-score (line-up list?) from 1907, along with probably a single photo of the team from 1907. Personally, I've never seen anything tying him to the 1907 Chicago Union Giants.

[Runscott]

Gary's i.d. of Topeka Jack Johnson in the 1905 Chicago Union Giants photo is correct. Here's the same photo from a 1910 issue of 'The Indianapolis Freeman'. I don't think the Seemheads photo or the one in the 1907 Union Giants looks like the same person.

[Runscott]

(Just using this thread to hold documentation)

Here's a 2-month old Wiki page on Topeka Jack Johnson:

Topeka Jack Johnson Wiki page

I'm guessing this is advertising by the 1907 Union Giants postcard owner or his proxy, given that it does not mention the 1905 Union Giants, for which evidence exists that he did play for, but it lists the same players for the 1907 team that we were able to i.d. from the postcard. Johnson, on the other hand, does not appear to be on either of the 1907 postcards, but a 'Jack Johnson' was a star hitter for their team, as evidenced by the game description referenced on the website.

The website also states "research also list at least three players who played under the name Jack Johnson between the years of 1907 and 1939". There is nothing on the website (or anywhere else) to validate that Johnson ever played for the 1907 Union Giants - My guess is that 'Topeka Jack' was playing for the Topeka Giants in 1907 - we know that's where he was for the 1908 season and that in 1909 he was in Kansas City.

I'll have a definite answer within a few days

Here's something from the Wiki page that I did not know: Johnson was managing his own team in 1917, called "Jack Johnson's Topeka Giants" who played the All Nations base ball club.[3]

Edited to clarify 1907 reference above

[mannybb24]

Good find Scott, see, I told you it was Jack Johnson.

I received an email from the winner of the postcard a few days ago and even after spending 2.4k on it, he knows nothing about the team.
He did say he will be doing his own research on it so I'll definitely let you know what he can come up with, if anything.

Steve

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mannybb24

Good find Scott, see, I told you it was Jack Johnson.

I received an email from the winner of the postcard a few days ago and even after spending 2.4k on it, he knows nothing about the team.
He did say he will be doing his own research on it so I'll definitely let you know what he can come up with, if anything.

Steve

Steve, I agree concerning the 1905 Union Giants, but not the Union Giants on the 1907 postcard - almost certainly two different people. The Chicago Union Giants were almost exclusively a barnstorming team after Leland split with Peters and formed the 'Leland Giants', so anyone could be on the team during a given road trip;e.g-Will Horn from the Lelands showing up on Peter's team in 1907 (sort of surprising, given the Peters/Leland history).

I have been maintaining rosters/stats for some of the Chicago teams from 1909-11. I should have enough information somewhere from 1907 to get some good rosters together for those Chicago teams.

I just checked a sampling of 1907 Leland Giants box-scores (May through August), and Will Horn does not show up in any of them. If that recent Union Giants postcard is showing Horn on loan from the Lelands, it's almost certainly not from 1907.

[mannybb24]

I was kidding Scott, no doubt it appears to be two different guys. Keep us updated on your finding.

[bcbgcbrcb]

WOW, I can rarely afford to spend $2,400 on something that is a must have for my collection let alone an item that I don't know anything about.

[Runscott]

Yeah, if I could have i.d.'d 2-3 players as being from the 1911 Leland Giants and/or the 1911 KC,KS Giants (Jack Johnson, for example), I would have bid what I thought was high, and still wouldn't have been the winning bidder.

I figured he knew something we didn't

[Shoeless Moe]

Maybe he thought the chubby dude was Rube Foster.

[bcbgcbrcb]

That's a good possibility, Paul. I considered that until I found the reverse image on the internet on another postcard where that individual is much more clearly pictured. Then, it was obvious that it was not Foster. The other thing that did not make sense was that the postcard had to be produced after March, 1907 based on the divided back and Foster's only season with the CUG was 1902. I have never seen a Negro League postcard printed several years later picturing an earlier team although it has happened with MLB teams from the 1890's and printed in the early 1900's.

[Runscott]

Not to be insulting, but no one in that photo closely resembles Rube Foster. There are zillions of Foster photos available for comparisons.

Will Horn played for the Leland Giants in 1905 and possibly 1906, but not in 1907. Could be that he was barnstorming with the Union Giants in 1907, wearing the last uniform he owned - from the 1905 or 1906 Lelands (reference books say he retired after either 1905 or 1906).

[Runscott]

Here is the 1908 Chicago Union Giants team that was announced in the March 15 Chicago Examiner:

Pitchers: Ball, Jussep and Horn (surprise!)
catchers: Robertson and Campbell
infielders: Johnson, Smith, Toney and Bings
outfielders: Green, Ramsey and Matthews

Here are some 1908 Chicago Union Giants line-ups (from actual box-scores):

April 6 paper:

Toney 3b
Ramsey lf
Green cf
Johnson ss
Robinson 1b
Williams rf
Wallace c
Lansty 2b
Haynes p

May 17 paper:

Toney 2b
Smith 3b
Green cf
Robinson 1b
Ramsey lf
Young rf
Primm c
Hutchison ss
Talbert p

May 18 paper:

same, except Young dropped below Hutchison and spelled 'Talbot' instead of 'Talbert'

Sept 12 paper says West and Primm will be the battery for upcoming game

[Runscott]

I have an article in the editors' hands that has quite a bit of Jack Johnson stuff in it, but I'll try to put together a bio.

Meanwhile, here's the 1917 Topeka Giants. The suited man in the back row has Johnson's features if you compare to the 1905 Union Giants pics of him.

I would love a clearer photo of the 1909 KC,KS Giants - it certainly has Johnson in it, but the man i.d.'d as him doesn't match up well with the 1905 pics.

Anyone have one?

[Dto7]

1909 KC Giants

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Dto7

1909 KC Giants

Thanks, but I have all the fuzzy internet ones and also the ones published in books.

I need a hi-res scan that I can i.d. players from.

[Runscott]

Here's an interesting article written by Topeka Jack, himself, referring to his playing days with the Chicago Union Giants:

[Dto7]

Seamheads got their Johnson photo from the book Black Baseball in Kansas City.

[Runscott]

I'm finding that with early 20th century black baseball history, you have to go back to the source whenever possible, and not rely on modern reference material. All the efforts of modern historians are greatly appreciated, but there are LOTS of errors - omissions and partial-research is more understandable, but the newspapers are out there for history to be reconstructed correctly.

[Runscott]

This doesn't help i.d. the year of the card, but here are two games played by the Chicago Union Giants against Maquaketa, Iowa on July 22,23 of 1909.

Maquaketa could have been an annual midwest stop for them:

[packs]

Could be wrong but it looks like Bruce had one of these postcards too. He shows it in the very beginning of this video.

video