Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

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This store ad is really interesting. Where did you find this information? Do you have any idea of the date of this? (I am guessing 1912-1919) Interesting that Red Sun is on the list but Coupon is not. We would need to ask Jon C. but I believe there is only one known Red Sun pack from 1910 known to exist. Also, perhaps only 1 Coupon pack from that era as well, but not sure on that...

I had it in a folder of newspaper clippings I saved. I found another one and I
think you will find this interesting since Red Sun is considered a regional brand
associated with Louisiana. Both ads are from Ohio newspapers the original
ad I posted is from Jan 19 1914 and this one is from Feb 17 1914.

Liggett & Myers Ad 2.jpg

I just spent a couple of hours looking through Louisiana newspapers from
1900-1920 and I couldn't find anything on Red Sun cigarettes.

This is a Liggett & Myers ad that was in a Louisiana paper on Feb 19 1913
that has several brands that are listed in the Ohio ads but no Red Sun.

Liggett & Myers Louisiana Ad.jpg

Here's a larger scan of the brands in the ad
Liggett & Myers Louisiana Ad - Copy.jpg

I also found this W.R. Irby ad in a Jan 11 1914 Louisiana paper. No
Red Sun in this one either but it does have Coupon in the ad. Notice
that all of the brands are in quotation marks including Coupon.

W.R. Irby Ad 1914 Copy.jpg


I have limited knowledge regarding the Red Sun cards but they do seem
similar to the T213's in that they use images from the T210 series 8
which also used some of the T206 images.

So where does the 1910 date on the T211's come from. If it's based on
the subjects in the set like the T213's seem to be I would question how
accurate that date is too if that's the only thing the date is based on.
You can pinpoint an earliest date based on what teams certain subjects
played on at the time but you can't pinpoint a stopping point based
solely on the subjects in the set. There are numerous pre and post
war cards that were printed depicting players on teams that they weren't
on when the cards were distributed.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I had it in a folder of newspaper clippings I saved. I found another one and I
think you will find this interesting since Red Sun is considered a regional brand
associated with Louisiana. Both ads are from Ohio newspapers the original
ad I posted is from Jan 19 1914 and this one is from Feb 17 1914.

Originally Posted by Pat R

Attachment 340216

I just spent a couple of hours looking through Louisiana newspapers from
1900-1920 and I couldn't find anything on Red Sun cigarettes.

This is a Liggett & Myers ad that was in a Louisiana paper on Feb 19 1913
that has several brands that are listed in the Ohio ads but no Red Sun.

Attachment 340217

Here's a larger scan of the brands in the ad
Attachment 340220

I also found this W.R. Irby ad in a Jan 11 1914 Louisiana paper. No
Red Sun in this one either but it does have Coupon in the ad. Notice
that all of the brands are in quotation marks including Coupon.

Attachment 340221


I have limited knowledge regarding the Red Sun cards but they do seem
similar to the T213's in that they use images from the T210 series 8
which also used some of the T206 images.

So where does the 1910 date on the T211's come from. If it's based on
the subjects in the set like the T213's seem to be I would question how
accurate that date is too if that's the only thing the date is based on.
You can pinpoint an earliest date based on what teams certain subjects
played on at the time but you can't pinpoint a stopping point based
solely on the subjects in the set. There are numerous pre and post
war cards that were printed depicting players on teams that they weren't
on when the cards were distributed.

Pat - Very interesting, but with Liggett having multiple brands for it's factory locations in places like New Orleans, St. Louis, MO., etc - it wouldn't surprise me to see all of their brands listed under their Corporation together, even in Ohio. Very cool and may help further explain the Red Sun story down the road as more information is found. Thnx for sharing that store ad !

Per Lew Lipset's EOBBC, Frank Huelsman (Mobile), who is in the Red Sun set only played with Mobile during the first part of 1909 and Jake Daubert, the Southern Association Batting Champion in 1910 who joined Memphis after the season was underway is not in the Red Sun set. This time stamps the set along with the Southern Assoc players of that era to to 1909-10, so most likely released in 1910. Also Hub Perdue (Nashville) who played in the Majors in 1911 (played for Nashville from 1907-10) is in the Red Sun set. Lots of evidence on timeline that Red Sun is in fact a 1910 set. Those discoveries were made a long time ago by Burdick, later published by Lipset with further time stamps of players, etc. T211 Red Sun is not in question on dating imo and neither is T210 Old Mill as there is many similar dating of players that can be started and stopped around that era with minor league to major league explanations such as the examples mentioned on the Red Suns. (Shoeless Joe is in T210 Old Mill with New Orleans, yet played in 1908-09 for A's, before joining NO for 1910, then onto Cleveland for 1911 season) This indicates to me that OM was produced in 1910, released in late 1910, early 1911. Red Sun can be conservatively put in that same time frame. 1910-11, and most likely Coupon Type 1 as well - 1910-11, which all falls under the time frame of 16 ATC brands release, potentially leaving out the 17th ATC brand, Coupon, from Burdick's 1940's designation of T206 as the 17th ATC brand inclusive of his T206 cataloging of brands.

Back to the Coupon ("Type 1" as Burdick's designation). It's a fact, that Coupon can be more easily tied to T206 / 16 ATC brands than it can to Coupon Mild & Sweet from 1914 ("Type 2" as Burdick's designation) because there are No team changes in the Coupon set of 68, as well as the pictures and captions match up to the rest of the T206 set comparing the 68 cards, but there are are many team changes in the Type 2 and 3 sets, as well as blue lettering, gloss on Type 2's. At the end of the day, all these types are simply Burdick's understanding at that time 75 years ago and that is how he labeled them. Nothing more, nothing less. Pretty obvious, the Type 1's are more alike the 16 ATC Brands from 1909-11, later labeled T206 by Burdick, than they are alike the later dated T213-2&3 sets from 1914 and 1919. Again, if AB is inclusive in T206 with size differences (width), then Coupon should be with size differences (Thickness).

So, my understanding is the entire set of Coupon Type 1 players matches the 350 series players spot on, including the 20 Southern League players from the 8 Southern League teams, correct !? If that's the case, when was the 350 series produced/released?? Further evidence Coupon is a 1910-11 set.

Also, one other important piece to the potential dating of 1910 release for Coupons is within those 20 Southern League players in the Coupon set. Two are from Little Rock. (Hart & Lentz) Little Rock was only a member of Southern Association in 1909 with the other teams Nashville, Memphis, Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile, New Orleans, and Atlanta. Chattanooga took Little Rock's place in 1910 in the Southern Association, and as we can see from the T210 Old Mill set, the Series 8 is void of Little Rock, but has Chattanooga in it. Further evidence not just on T210 Old Mill, but certainly Coupon as having a 1910 release.

I believe the 68 card set of Coupons is probably not complete. If 9 T206 proof cards can not be known for over 100 years, then a set as rare as Coupon could certainly end up with more cards, even if they are only proofs, scrap, etc... Wouldn't surprise me a bit if a new find yielded some unknown players from that 350 series subjects. (Side note : Type 3 has 70 cards, and Type 2 has 187)

I will lean on Ted, Scot, you, and others on the following questions...

What about the other "Southern Leaguers" from the T206 set? Any patterns with the remaining "SL" players even though they are not actually SL players but called that in the T206 set... (Texas League, South Atlantic League, Virginia League are all absent from the Coupon set, correct !?) The Coupon set has 20 True Southern League players in it. Those 8 Teams represented are period to 1909. This would suggest they were produced & released around that time frame, most likely 1910, but most certainly not later than 1911.

Why is the Coupon set missing T206 Southern leaguers from The South Atlantic, Virginia, and Texas leagues ? Perhaps, it's as easy as where they were released. New Orleans. New Orleans was in the Southern Association obvioulsy and the 20 SL players represent 8 teams in the SA.

And, again wouldn't the Type 1 Coupons matching the 350 series for all 68 cards not put a time stamp of 1910-11 on the set, thus making them the 17th ATC brand ?? What have I missed on the 350 series and the parallel of the 68 Coupon subjects ?


https://www.sportscollectorsdigest.c...f_370_million/

[DixieBaseball]

New Orleans Market selling Coupon Cases/Cartons (Behind Glass) - Notice the Cigarette dispenser on counter... Boy, I would give my pinky nail to go back in time, and have a some fried oysters for lunch right there in that moment for about an hour or two, then purchase some Coupons for the road.... Carton - (Circa 1914-20)

[DixieBaseball]

Coupon