'52 Topps Mick SGC 4 Fireworks - Hits $54,900

[MattyC]

Anyone else watching the fireworks on this beauty? At first sight this card struck me as something really special. I'd prefer to look at this specimen over some in much higher grades. Congrats in advance to the collector who brings it home.

SGC 4 Mick

[Republicaninmass]

It's glorious!

I wonder if Ken knows the max bid?

[Canofcorn]

And I thought I had a nice SGC 4.
Good to see SGC bringing in some escarole. Giving me hope when I sell mine.

[MattyC]

There are just so few centered like that; always good to see collectors being all about the card. It's a beauty.

[irv]

Any idea why that is graded as low as it is?

Looks beauty to me and I'm sure it will sell for large despite the rating.
Currently at $42,000 but imo, it should go for about double that based on what I have seen?

[Canofcorn]

Mine isn't as nice top to bottom, but much nicer than most.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

Mine isn't as nice top to bottom, but much nicer than most.

One of the better examples right there. Centering is great, and that color is so rich and deep. Fantastic piece. Must be a joy to look at that card.

The 2 at LOTG is worth noting, too.

Regarding the technical assessment of the SGC 4 at auction, it seems some surface scuffing on the left side is the cause. Certainly doesn't affect the eye appeal. Classic case of the rigid grading criteria, which I have always personally disagreed with-- they will hit a card for surface or corners or a micro wrinkle so hard, but a card can have ugly focus or tilt and still get a pretty high grade. Sometimes it's a bummer and sometimes it creates a great value for the collector, as in the case of this SGC 4. An uglier 7 would cost like 200k or some super high amount, and this '4' will probably sell for a bundle less.

[TheNightmanCometh]

To see that graded as a "4" gives me hope that maybe one day I'll be able to own a kick-ass '52 Mantle myself.

[irv]

Originally Posted by MattyC

One of the better examples right there. Centering is great, and that color is so rich and deep. Fantastic piece. Must be a joy to look at that card.

The 2 at LOTG is worth noting, too.

Regarding the technical assessment of the SGC 4 at auction, it seems some surface scuffing on the left side is the cause. Certainly doesn't affect the eye appeal. Classic case of the rigid grading criteria, which I have always personally disagreed with-- they will hit a card for surface or corners or a micro wrinkle so hard, but a card can have ugly focus or tilt and still get a pretty high grade. Sometimes it's a bummer and sometimes it creates a great value for the collector, as in the case of this SGC 4. An uglier 7 would cost like 200k or some super high amount, and this '4' will probably sell for a bundle less.

I agree, that card does look in great shape despite the slight scuffing. I am now realizing the term, "Buy the Card, not the case/slab in comes in"

[pawpawdiv9]

If you look closer, i belive there some indention or crease on the left side/border. In 2 places. Above the bat and right at the logo box. You can see the differences there from where it crosses from the white border thru the black line and into the color backgrounds.
Then again, it may be print lines. Buts it looks like somethings there.

[Canofcorn]

Originally Posted by irv

Any idea why that is graded as low as it is?

Looks beauty to me and I'm sure it will sell for large despite the rating.
Currently at $42,000 but imo, it should go for about double that based on what I have seen?

The scuffing or minor paper loss on the surface will be more evident if you hold it in your hand. The scanner won't always capture that properly. Mine does not have any scuffing issues

[irv]

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

The scuffing or minor paper loss on the surface will be more evident if you hold it in your hand. The scanner won't always capture that properly. Mine does not have any scuffing issues

And yet your's graded the same?? This grading thing is hard to figure out at times, but then again, I am not a grader.

Not sure what mine would grade at? Likely a PR-1 or very slightly better.

[Canofcorn]

The corners on mine prevent anything higher. Each card is different. The one going tonight is better centered top to bottom and better corners than mine. I can't deny that, but mine has different attributes (no scuffing, better color)

Yours is probably a 1 because of the paper loss, but I'm not a grader. Other members on here have much more knowledge to speak to that.
The Mays is extremely nice. I've seen your 52 collection. You need to send the big ones in to get them graded and "authenticated".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Both SGC 4s are phenomenal cards for the grade, is the bottom line. Personally I would prefer the one with the better color, but can't go wrong either way.

[MattyC]

Well said Canocorn; one of the main aspects of collecting that can get lost is the fact that each and every card is individual and unique-- even cards that have been assigned the same technical grade by a grader. In fact, there can be an enormous difference in visual appearance (eye appeal) between two identically graded cards.

Meeting a new card is thus kind of like meeting a new person, I suppose with the important distinction that cards will always be less chafing than most humans, or at least bosses and wives

And I agree with Peter that both 4s are amazing cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

The scuffing or minor paper loss on the surface will be more evident if you hold it in your hand. The scanner won't always capture that properly. Mine does not have any scuffing issues

Right, and sometimes indentations are only visible at an angle and won't show on a scan. Matt you may recall the phenomenal 51B PSA 4 I was thinking of buying back over the summer == turns out that when my friend saw it in hand, it had a prominent indentation that did not show at all on the scan. While scan technology has greatly improved, there is still no substitute for eyeballing a card and flipping it around at various angles under a light.

[TheNightmanCometh]

If a lot of things get lost by using a scanner, why do they still scan cards? I would prefer to know what I'm getting before I buy. Just seems there has to be a better way.

[MattyC]

Absolutely, Peter. In fact, thanks to buying from the same sellers over the years, often times I will pay to have them send me a card for an in-hand review. There is just no substitute for holding a card in-hand. Hence why I love shows, and had such a blast at The National. There are times when a card just looks so much more beautiful in hand than it does in the scan, times when the scan looks better, and then times when it's just about accurate. That first scenario is always such a thrill, when you get the card and smile and think, "WOW." It's even better when that WOW is followed by, "Damn, this thing looks better than the number on the flip! LOL!"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by TheNightmanCometh

If a lot of things get lost by using a scanner, why do they still scan cards? I would prefer to know what I'm getting before I buy. Just seems there has to be a better way.

Scans to me are better than camera pics, so that (plus asking questions) is the best you can do in an imperfect world.

[TheNightmanCometh]

That makes sense. I read in another thread that your dpi should be different when scanning vintage and new cards. What's the consensus on that?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

The corners on mine prevent anything higher. Each card is different. The one going tonight is better centered top to bottom and better corners than mine. I can't deny that, but mine has different attributes (no scuffing, better color)

Yours is probably a 1 because of the paper loss, but I'm not a grader. Other members on here have much more knowledge to speak to that.
The Mays is extremely nice. I've seen your 52 collection. You need to send the big ones in to get them graded and "authenticated".

Yes, for sure I do, but I am still leery of sending them through the mail, and with our current CDN dollar's value, I am not willing to spend 100's more than I have to.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Both SGC 4s are phenomenal cards for the grade, is the bottom line. Personally I would prefer the one with the better color, but can't go wrong either way.

Peter, any thoughts off the top of your head what my card (the Mantle) would grade at?
Not going to hold you or anyone to your guesstimate, just looking for a ball park figure. (here's the back)

[pokerplyr80]

I'm more surprised by the 55 Clemente PSA 8 at almost 60k, and it's not even centered. I thought the market for this card was in the 30-35k range. Has it really changed that much in the last couple of months?

[MattyC]

I expected 50-55k on the Roberto. A comparable 8 hit 44k at Goodwin in Nov, and the 9s have settled well into 6 digit range with back to back sales. When that happens the next grade down stands to get a big jolt.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I expected 50-55k on the Roberto. A comparable 8 hit 44k at Goodwin in Nov, and the 9s have settled well into 6 digit range with back to back sales. When that happens the next grade down stands to get a big jolt.

I hope you're right. I think I'll sit on my 7 for a little while before I sell it. Maybe this jolt well transfer down another grade or two.

[Jdoggs]

SGC 4 52 mantle currently at $54k.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Jdoggs

SGC 4 52 mantle currently at $54k.

Honestly, I am not surprised. Like what has already been mentioned, that is a great looking 4.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jdoggs

SGC 4 52 mantle currently at $54k.

I am speechless.

[Canofcorn]

Thanks for posting this thread Matty. I actually feel vindicated in a way, becuuse I held firm on my offers and people were beating me up because it's in an SGC holder and not PSA. I almost started to believe it. In a weird way I feel like my card gained $10k in value because of this auction. Yes, each auction is different and that card was a little nicer, but if I was thinking $30k, there is no reason mine can't be $40k..still $14k less expensive. And trending up, up, and away.

As Johnny Drama said in Entourage....VICTORY!!

[pawpawdiv9]

Originally Posted by MattyC View Post
I expected 50-55k on the Roberto. A comparable 8 hit 44k at Goodwin in Nov, and the 9s have settled well into 6 digit range with back to back sales. When that happens the next grade down stands to get a big jolt.

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I hope you're right. I think I'll sit on my 7 for a little while before I sell it. Maybe this jolt well transfer down another grade or two.

There is a on-going SGC 7.5 in AH closing soon near 6k.

[MattyC]

Received two random offers on my 311 in the last 12 hours. Alas that bad boy is going to my son. Though I suspect after I croak my brother is gonna try and get his hands on it!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Received two random offers on my 311 in the last 12 hours. Alas that bad boy is going to my son. Though I suspect after I croak my brother is gonna try and get his hands on it!

that's cool mattyc...I also think what was thought as top top of the market ebay mantles RCs on ebay are getting lots of views now and offers.. if you click sold ebay tomorrow I bet you a few of the $10,000+ mantles have good chance to be sold by tomorrow.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

Thanks for posting this thread Matty. I actually feel vindicated in a way, becuuse I held firm on my offers and people were beating me up because it's in an SGC holder and not PSA. I almost started to believe it. In a weird way I feel like my card gained $10k in value because of this auction. Yes, each auction is different and that card was a little nicer, but if I was thinking $30k, there is no reason mine can't be $40k..still $14k less expensive. And trending up, up, and away.

As Johnny Drama said in Entourage....VICTORY!!

like you said each auction is different if you are considering selling a 20k+ card..why not pay the 500 or whatever to get it into a PSA holder....the only way I think SGCs get top dollar on occasion is in the open auction market where there is real risk..unless there is a hidden reserve......even if PSA doesn't agree with the grade and you get it back..so what is 500 bucks for a card that has gone up 10k in your opinion that's not a horrible risk

it real tough to get top of market value on direct deals on SGC cards in my humble opinion but sometimes that same person that offers you 20k will pay 25k in an auction setting...or if its a PSA card you have a better chance to set a new market record in a direct offer.... but I just talking generally and my opinion only

[Jdoggs]

SGC 4 52 mantle sold for $54,900.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

Thanks for posting this thread Matty. I actually feel vindicated in a way, becuuse I held firm on my offers and people were beating me up because it's in an SGC holder and not PSA. I almost started to believe it. In a weird way I feel like my card gained $10k in value because of this auction. Yes, each auction is different and that card was a little nicer, but if I was thinking $30k, there is no reason mine can't be $40k..still $14k less expensive. And trending up, up, and away.

As Johnny Drama said in Entourage....VICTORY!!

LOL too funny.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

Thanks for posting this thread Matty. I actually feel vindicated in a way, becuuse I held firm on my offers and people were beating me up because it's in an SGC holder and not PSA. I almost started to believe it. In a weird way I feel like my card gained $10k in value because of this auction. Yes, each auction is different and that card was a little nicer, but if I was thinking $30k, there is no reason mine can't be $40k..still $14k less expensive. And trending up, up, and away.

As Johnny Drama said in Entourage....VICTORY!!

Just going by these E-Bay listings, you can clearly see (in my opinion) that PSA does grade higher, or is not as strict as SGC.

Case in point, Billy Herman, below, VG-EX 4 (there are others). If that card is a 4 then your's and the one sold in the auction would definitely be 5's or 6's or maybe even higher?

Not bashing or criticizing, just stating my personal observations. Of course, like others have mentioned, there is more that meets the eye.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/Baseball-/21...p2045573.m1684

[Peter_Spaeth]

In the last couple of years PSA is much stricter than SGC in my opinion, in terms of corners anyhow and centering which is where most cards above 3 get graded down. In general, there are always exceptions.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In the last couple of years PSA is much stricter than SGC in my opinion, in terms of corners anyhow and centering which is where most cards above 3 get graded down. In general, there are always exceptions.

Going by that Herman I was talking about and seeing it graded a 4 leads me to believe, like I already stated, those Mantles, if graded by PSA would have graded much higher imo. This Herman, comparatively, either doesn't deserve a 4 or the Mantles deserve a much higher grade.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-3...4AAOSwFMZWrkuj

[MattyC]

PSA in my experience has gotten incredibly strict. It's also important to keep in mind that even in a new holder, a card could have been graded in a past era when different graders and standards were in effect. Ultimately, the card will always shine no matter the plastic or the number.

[irv]

Originally Posted by MattyC

PSA in my experience has gotten incredibly strict. It's also important to keep in mind that even in a new holder, a card could have been graded in a past era when different graders and standards were in effect.

Makes sense, and what that Herman looks like to me, compared to those SGC Mantles.

When I seen that Herman, I got all excited thinking my cards, or most of them should grade much higher.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

like you said each auction is different if you are considering selling a 20k+ card..why not pay the 500 or whatever to get it into a PSA holder....the only way I think SGCs get top dollar on occasion is in the open auction market where there is real risk..unless there is a hidden reserve......even if PSA doesn't agree with the grade and you get it back..so what is 500 bucks for a card that has gone up 10k in your opinion that's not a horrible risk

it real tough to get top of market value on direct deals on SGC cards in my humble opinion but sometimes that same person that offers you 20k will pay 25k in an auction setting...or if its a PSA card you have a better chance to set a new market record in a direct offer.... but I just talking generally and my opinion only

Like MattyC said it was the card not the holder in this case. There are two SGC 50s on ebay right now, one for 30k, one for 25k, and both accepting lower offers. No one has jumped on them yet, and I certainly won't be.

I would also assume that most people selling high end cards like this in SGC holders have already tried and failed to get them into PSA holders. I know I would have. But in this case it certainly didn't seem to matter. I don't think this one brings much more than 54k in a PSA 4 holder.

[Canofcorn]

All 4s aren't created equal

[Canofcorn]

It'a tough finding centered examples

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

It'a tough finding centered examples

I feel ya, brother. A collector who wants well-framed cards finds so many are tough to find centered-- especially Mantles. Just think of how many 52Ts, 51Bs, 53Ts, heck, all of them that we see listed everywhere...and how few are dead nuts centered. Makes the hunt and finding that rare centered card all the more satisfying and FUN!

[glynparson]

Is not the same as technical grade. Many can't understand the difference. The Herman is an older grade and irrelevant to what Peter stated which is correct.

[Jdoggs]

A nicely centered 52 topps SGC 80 mantle would cost at least $100k in this market.
A nicely centered 52 topps SGC 60 mantle would probably be at least $60k after the 52 SGC 50 Goldin auctions sale of $54.9k.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Jdoggs

A nicely centered 52 topps SGC 80 mantle would cost at least $100k in this market.
A nicely centered 52 topps SGC 60 mantle would probably be at least $60k after the 52 SGC 50 Goldin auctions sale of $54.9k.

cards dont always work that way, if one sells for less there is panic mode too......plus the high bidder on the last card is out of the market potentially on a last sale and its not like people are not seeing the auctions on these high profile cards...if the high bidder on a winning card doesn't bid on the next card up at a top market price theres always a chance of a major fall in price...of course there can be new unique bidders too. we shall see....

[begsu1013]

this price just goes to show that collectors are finally using their brains again vs completely ignoring it and being blinded or constrained simply because of what a flip says...

find me a better centered 57...

[jmb]

Fantastic eye appeal on the 57.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Jdoggs

A nicely centered 52 topps SGC 80 mantle would cost at least $100k in this market.
A nicely centered 52 topps SGC 60 mantle would probably be at least $60k after the 52 SGC 50 Goldin auctions sale of $54.9k.

I agree. I see a truly dead centered PSA 5 these days as pushing up to the 75k barrier, since the 6s with such amazing eye appeal are locked in at 100k. If I am a buyer, I am looking at what a 50/50, tilt-free 6 with bold color will cost me (100k), and saying to myself, "Screw VCP, if I can pay 25k less for an equally gorgeous card, I'm doing it." Hence, a 75k "5." Again, talking only here about a specimen with rare, dead centering, equally rare zero tilt, and great color. In other words, a freak, LOL.

Fantastic 57 pictured above. Talk about eye appeal. Perhaps fewer than 1 in every 100 examples of the 57 are that well framed. With that card, between the tilt, the centering, and the various printing/image issues, finding a nice one is incredibly challenging.

[Jdoggs]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I agree. I see a truly dead centered PSA 5 these days as pushing up to the 75k barrier, since the 6s with such amazing eye appeal are locked in at 100k. If I am a buyer, I am looking at what a 50/50, tilt-free 6 with bold color will cost me (100k), and saying to myself, "Screw VCP, if I can pay 25k less for an equally gorgeous card, I'm doing it." Hence, a 75k "5." Again, talking only here about a specimen with rare, dead centering, equally rare zero tilt, and great color. In other words, a freak, LOL.

Fantastic 57 pictured above. Talk about eye appeal. Perhaps fewer than 1 in every 100 examples of the 57 are that well framed. With that card, between the tilt, the centering, and the various printing/image issues, finding a nice one is incredibly challenging.

I agree with you. A perfectly centered beautiful 52 topps mantle in PSA 5 could break the $75k barrier. An SGC 60 52 topps mantle equivalent could come close to that too.
Beautiful 52 topps mantle PSA 6's and SGC 80's are already breaking the $100k barrier most notably the recent goodwin PSA 6 sale of $133k.