Very, very, interesting...

[David Atkatz]

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=8280#more-8280

[howard38]

.

[ruth-gehrig]

Yeah that is interesting. Looking forward to the 9 remaining parts to the story.

[GrayGhost]

It never ends. damn...

[barrysloate]

I agree Scott. The amount of fraud in this hobby seems boundless. Ultimately, many of the deep pocketed collectors will leave. Very bad for the hobby's future, and it does adversely affect even the legitimate Ruths, as it creates suspicion and doubt as to their authenticity. Crazy business.

[travrosty]

Dozens of snow white Ruth balls. Where are the dozens of Ty Cobb's, Jimmie Foxx, and Honus Wagner?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Dozens of snow white Ruth balls. Where are the dozens of Ty Cobb's, Jimmie Foxx, and Honus Wagner?

Hang on a minute......where did I put that box of balls again?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Yeah that is interesting. Looking forward to the 9 remaining parts to the story.

+1

[batsballsbases]

It is stories just like this why I stopped collecting autographed anything many years ago. And as for the experts really what it still comes down to is unless you were there when any item was signed is just an educated guess! That could end up costing the buyer alot of money years later when the item is deemed "BAD" by another educated expert years down the road!

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

It is stories just like this why I stopped collecting autographed anything many years ago. And as for the experts really what it still comes down to is unless you were there when any item was signed is just an educated guess! That could end up costing the buyer alot of money years later when the item is deemed "BAD" by another educated expert years down the road!

+1

[base_ball]

Perhaps the Ruth estate should consider licensing forgeries. That way they could receive royalties, collectors would know what they are getting, and PSA/ JSA/FBI/DNA can get a piece of the action with these "authenticated forgeries". Hey, even honest jobs would be created for the forgers.

[A2000]

who knew Babe Ruth's granddaughter was an expert on Babe Ruth autographs?

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by A2000

who knew Babe Ruth's granddaughter was an expert on Babe Ruth autographs?

......and I thought I was the only one who thought of this.


Maybe she just wants a piece of the action.

[RichardSimon]

Ruth's granddaughter aside, I respect the opinion of Ron Keurajian, over the alphabet soup guys, every day of the week.

[mr2686]

Ruth's granddaughter aside, I respect the opinion of Ron Keurajian, over the alphabet soup guys, every day of the week.

+1

[Mr. Zipper]

This is disturbing and we'll see how it plays out.

What is a little odd to me is that there is more anger directed at the "alphabet soup" companies than the forgers themselves.

I am not qualified to be the judge of who is the absolute best Ruth authenticator, but I have to presume JSA and PSA are far better than your run-of-the-mill sports memorabilia dealer. Perhaps there are a handful better than PSA and JSA. But if the allegations are true, is it safe to presume these forgeries would also get by 95% of other dealers?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

This is disturbing and we'll see how it plays out.

What is a little odd to me is that there is more anger directed at the "alphabet soup" companies than the forgers themselves.

I am not qualified to be the judge of who is the absolute best Ruth authenticator, but I have to presume JSA and PSA are far better than your run-of-the-mill sports memorabilia dealer. Perhaps there are a handful better than PSA and JSA. But if the alegations are true, is it safe to presume these forgeries would also get by 95% of other dealers?

The anger at the companies is because they potentially take a forgery and legitimize it! Before it was a forgery that might get by someone, might not.

Now it has been 'deemed authentic', and gets by everyone because there is a sticker on the cert, which has been signed by someone.

Now instead of consumers doing their own homework and vetting a ball by carefully inspecting it, getting multiple opinions, - they buy the ball because abc said it was good. If you say that consumers weren't doing that before, and getting stuck with bad balls, they are just doing the same thing now, only they feel better about it.

Never in history have people felt so good at buying potential forgeries. It's now backed up with a hologram! It's feel good authenticating, feel good buying, but what are they truly getting.

If there were no certs on these balls, people would be cautious and check them out, and maybe not pay 300000 dollars for something they dont know anything about, and buy it from anybody anywhere instead of a lifelong dealer who might back up the ball with a lifetime guarantee.

Instead they could buy it from joe blow's beanie baby show, and Joe blow just points to the certificate, and the buyer can be ignorant, the seller can be ignorant, because they trust the comapny. How about educated buyers and sellers and let the company certify coco crisp and milton bradley?

Instead some guy now has a ruth ball that he paid 20 grand for and now we see dozens of blazers all over the place over the last 10 years. Where were these balls 20, 30 years ago? They all come out of the woodwork now?

Where are the 7 dwarfs? because snow white is here!

You stated the problem perfectly.

"but I have to presume JSA and PSA are far better than your run-of-the-mill sports memorabilia dealer."

first of all , how do you know they are good? second, the problem is that now any run of the mill sports memorabilia dealer feels he can sell a ruth ball. just point to the cert.

I am really tired of the excuse. "they probably screw up less than the others so let's go with them."

let's demand competance, and if there is no one here right now, let's wait. Don't reward the best of the worst. Demand better, then you will get it. If you support the way it is being done right now, that's all you will ever get. You will never get anything better than this if this is a great system for you.



we have taken a scholarly pursuit and fastracked it. There is a picture of a jsa cert with a photo on the cert of a psa certed ruth STILL IN THE BALLCUBE! Why? did they not want to break the PSA seal? Is that authenticating, through the glass?

Please answer how that is the right thing to do? Why are these guys good? It's circular logic, the auction houses say they are good, so the collector believes them, they buy from the auction house with the abc cert. they are happy it has an abc cert, because they can resell later at an auction house, so someone else can buy it, and the seller, buyer, auction house, and the abc company all say ABC is good? The auction house makes money, abc makes money, the reseller makes money. Of course they think abc is good, everyones making money.

The problem is the person who will lose money is the guy who gets stuck with the bad autographs LAST! He is the loser. And if the company goes under or proves it is not up to snuff, like GAI, everyone who had a gai cert gets stuck and there are thousands upon thousands of losers. No one learned anything at all from GAI. Speeding into the sun and and future is so bright we gotta wear shades. But it's alright because we all have our pristine Babe Ruth signed baseballs at our side!

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Instead they could buy it from joe blow's beanie baby show, and Joe blow just points to the certificate, and the buyer can be ignorant, the seller can be ignorant, because they trust the comapny.

That just made me laugh hysterically.

This is really crazy. I had lots of faith in the alpha bits authenticators, but now I don't know. To me, if I had the means to buy an expensive ball, I would study it carefully, vs many known examples, and make my own judgment. Yes, its GREAT to have an authenticator be it the Alphabet guys, or anyone else. Soem are better than others, but in the end, unless you were THERE WHEN BABE SIGNED IT. NOBODY KNOWS FOR SURE> We all must take a "leap of faith" and IMO, our own minds and research may be less risky, than a company that authenticates so many sigs they kinda are blue in the face.

Its just an opinion, and this whole thing is making my head spin.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by travrosty

The anger at the companies is because they potentially take a forgery and legitimize it! Before it was a forgery that might get by someone, might not...

Now instead of consumers doing their own homework and vetting a ball by carefully inspecting it, getting multiple opinions, - they buy the ball because abc said it was good...

Never in history have people felt so good at buying potential forgeries. It's now backed up with a hologram! It's feel good authenticating, feel good buying...

Gee... How long have I been saying this?

[travrosty]

the question that is most important to answer is that - after the 10 part series, and you feel like haulsofshame is correct, and that ruth balls have totally been botched, would that be enough to shake your confidence in these companies where you feel like we need something else?


or would that not be enough? and if it wasn't enough, then what would be enough. It's already babe ruth, the biggest name ever, what would it take to say 'enough'? Is there no scenario that you would say "enough, even I couldn't support this craziness anymore?"

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by travrosty

The anger at the companies is because they potentially take a forgery and legitimize it! Before it was a forgery that might get by someone, might not.

Now it has been 'deemed authentic', and gets by everyone because there is a sticker on the cert, which has been signed by someone.

Now instead of consumers doing their own homework and vetting a ball by carefully inspecting it, getting multiple opinions, - they buy the ball because abc said it was good. If you say that consumers weren't doing that before, and getting stuck with bad balls, they are just doing the same thing now, only they feel better about it.

Never in history have people felt so good at buying potential forgeries. It's now backed up with a hologram! It's feel good authenticating, feel good buying, but what are they truly getting.

If there were no certs on these balls, people would be cautious and check them out, and maybe not pay 300000 dollars for something they dont know anything about, and buy it from anybody anywhere instead of a lifelong dealer who might back up the ball with a lifetime guarantee.

Instead they could buy it from joe blow's beanie baby show, and Joe blow just points to the certificate, and the buyer can be ignorant, the seller can be ignorant, because they trust the comapny. How about educated buyers and sellers and let the company certify coco crisp and milton bradley?

Instead some guy now has a ruth ball that he paid 20 grand for and now we see dozens of blazers all over the place over the last 10 years. Where were these balls 20, 30 years ago? They all come out of the woodwork now?

Where are the 7 dwarfs? because snow white is here!

You stated the problem perfectly.

"but I have to presume JSA and PSA are far better than your run-of-the-mill sports memorabilia dealer."

first of all , how do you know they are good? second, the problem is that now any run of the mill sports memorabilia dealer feels he can sell a ruth ball. just point to the cert.

I am really tired of the excuse. "they probably screw up less than the others so let's go with them."

let's demand competance, and if there is no one here right now, let's wait. Don't reward the best of the worst. Demand better, then you will get it. If you support the way it is being done right now, that's all you will ever get. You will never get anything better than this if this is a great system for you.



we have taken a scholarly pursuit and fastracked it. There is a picture of a jsa cert with a photo on the cert of a psa certed ruth STILL IN THE BALLCUBE! Why? did they not want to break the PSA seal? Is that authenticating, through the glass?

Please answer how that is the right thing to do? Why are these guys good? It's circular logic, the auction houses say they are good, so the collector believes them, they buy from the auction house with the abc cert. they are happy it has an abc cert, because they can resell later at an auction house, so someone else can buy it, and the seller, buyer, auction house, and the abc company all say ABC is good? The auction house makes money, abc makes money, the reseller makes money. Of course they think abc is good, everyones making money.

The problem is the person who will lose money is the guy who gets stuck with the bad autographs LAST! He is the loser. And if the company goes under or proves it is not up to snuff, like GAI, everyone who had a gai cert gets stuck and there are thousands upon thousands of losers. No one learned anything at all from GAI. Speeding into the sun and and future is so bright we gotta wear shades. But it's alright because we all have our pristine Babe Ruth signed baseballs at our side!

I have to agree with you 100% Travis. Also, to add: "No one learned anything at all from" Donald Fryingpangianniand his rubber stamping operation either. I certainly see what you mean about the potential the alphabet soup companies have to cost people a bundle. It's beyond a mess.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by travrosty

The anger at the companies is because they potentially take a forgery and legitimize it! Before it was a forgery that might get by someone, might not.

Now it has been 'deemed authentic', and gets by everyone because there is a sticker on the cert, which has been signed by someone...

Travis:

You make some good points, but part of the logic is flawed in my view.

In essence, your point is that these companies "legitimize" some fakes and create a false sense of security, the collectors don't do their homework, etc. In effect, it is the fault of these companies that these fakes are allowed to flourish.

Following your logic, if these companies didn't exist approving questionable items, collectors would be more educated, they'd all do their homework, go to the proper dealer/experts, have everything reviewed my muliple trusted sources, etc., etc.

Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Big money will attract fraud. Ruth balls would be selling for big bucks whether PSA existed or not. And collectors would be just as lazy and look to some source of expertise whether PSA existed or not. Instead of trusting the opinion of PSA, they'd be trusting the opinion of some dealer or auction house, who is no less prone to the same shortcomings of a TPA.

I think your view of the hobby sans "alphabet soup" is not realistic.

[David Atkatz]

Can't agree, Steve. We all know to be wary of the seller--that's why TPAs exist. "Don't worry my child, I'm an expert, and I assure you you're not being ripped-off this time."

[Sportsnutcards]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Travis:

You make some good points, but part of the logic is flawed in my view.

In essence, your point is that these companies "legitimize" some fakes and create a false sense of security, the collectors don't do their homework, etc. In effect, it is the fault of these companies that these fakes are allowed to flourish.

Following your logic, if these companies didn't exist approving questionable items, collectors would be more educated, they'd all do their homework, go to the proper dealer/experts, have everything reviewed my muliple trusted sources, etc., etc.

Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Big money will attract fraud. Ruth balls would be selling for big bucks whether PSA existed or not. And collectors would be just as lazy and look to some source of expertise whether PSA existed or not. Instead of trusting the opinion of PSA, they'd be trusting the opinion of some dealer or auction house, who is no less prone to the same shortcomings of a TPA.

I think your view of the hobby sans "alphabet soup" is not realistic.

That is what I do not understand about those who are so against JSA and PSA. If they didn't exist how would someone find out who to trust? Where would a novice autograph collector start? How would they even find someone whose opinion they could trust? Everyone makes mistakes, even major dealers, auction houses etc, but they are not brought into the spotlight because their mistakes are usually not out there for everyone to see. That is why 3rd part authentication exists, to give you an extra level of comfort when buying something. They are just certifying their opinion just like every other major dealer in this industry. It is then up to the consumer to make a decision how to weight that opinion.

[prewarsports]

Hi

I never said people were stashing Ruth balls away for monetary future value. Here is what I am trying to say for the third time, and I am 100% correct and have researched this extensively.

1. People in general were saving things like Ruth signed balls more in the late 1940's because they recognized them as a keepsakes/heirloom etc more than they were in the 1920's. Absolutely 100% true. Not because "they were going to be worth something someday" but because they recognized that they were collectible items. I am NOT saying everyone did this, but more people were keeping things like this in sock drawers and trying to keep them nice because they were special items by 1947 then they were in 1927. This is an absolute fact and if you dispute this you dont know autograph collecting history.


2. Autographs WERE being collected by the 1940's by larger numbers of people who viewed them as "valuable" but not in the same way we do today. While there was no set value, there are recorded events where things like Babe Ruth signed baseballs sold for money or traded at a premium for other items and this is 100% true as well. Whether you want to admit it or not, there were small groups of people who were buying and selling and trading autographs in clubs by the 1930's and there were lots of them by the 1940's. If you want an education on the autograph clubs of this time period and how they operated I would be happy to give you one, but you are wrong to state that nobody placed monetary value on autographs in the 1940's because SOME people did, the same way they did baseball cards in this era. Maybe only 10 people in the world wanted a T206 Wagner in 1949 but the facts are there to prove that SOME people did even though baseball cards were worthless to 99.9% of America. Just because some Wagners were being sold at yard sales and thrown away in 1950 does not mean they did not already have monetary value to SOME PEOPLE!

Were people getting Ruth to signed baseballs so they could sell them? No. Were people by the 1940's getting Ruth to sign baseballs because they were highly prized collectibles that did have value and should be kept nice and in nice condition? 100% YES and this is the point I was trying to make.

You are speaking in way too many absolutes. All it takes is 1 person that thought their Ruth ball was worth money in 1947 to prove your statement wrong.

Not trying to start something here, but I am right and I have spoken to people who were members of autograph clubs in the 1940's when I bought their collections who have explained to me first hand how they worked and how they would sell some of their autographs (yes for money in the 1940's including Ruth). They did have some monetary value to some people by the 1940's and to deny this entirely is not knowing the history of autograph collecting in America.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Sportsnutcards

That is what I do not understand about those who are so against JSA and PSA. If they didn't exist how would someone find out who to trust? Where would a novice autograph collector start? How would they even find someone whose opinion they could trust? Everyone makes mistakes, even major dealers, auction houses etc, but they are not brought into the spotlight because their mistakes are usually not out there for everyone to see. That is why 3rd part authentication exists, to give you an extra level of comfort when buying something. They are just certifying their opinion just like every other major dealer in this industry. It is then up to the consumer to make a decision how to weight that opinion.

The reason is because people dont know these authenticating companies, they just see abc, or xyz and trust them. Who looked at your autograph when you sent it in?

YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW, DO YOU? nobody does. how can you gauge trust in an authenticator that is a mystery man to you?

If Richard Simon looked at a ruth ball i was considering buying, i can take richard's opinion for what i value it. But if the ruth ball comes with abc or xyz, just whose opinion am i valuing? Give me a name. They don't tell you who looked at it.

Please answer that question and dont dodge it.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Travis:

You make some good points, but part of the logic is flawed in my view.

In essence, your point is that these companies "legitimize" some fakes and create a false sense of security, the collectors don't do their homework, etc. In effect, it is the fault of these companies that these fakes are allowed to flourish.

Following your logic, if these companies didn't exist approving questionable items, collectors would be more educated, they'd all do their homework, go to the proper dealer/experts, have everything reviewed my muliple trusted sources, etc., etc.

Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Big money will attract fraud. Ruth balls would be selling for big bucks whether PSA existed or not. And collectors would be just as lazy and look to some source of expertise whether PSA existed or not. Instead of trusting the opinion of PSA, they'd be trusting the opinion of some dealer or auction house, who is no less prone to the same shortcomings of a TPA.

I think your view of the hobby sans "alphabet soup" is not realistic.

but alphabet soup isnt working. we had no soup before 1999. this isnt any better.

maybe authentication companies would work and be good for the hobby, but they have to operate in a business model that doesnt cut corners.

you cut corners, you get this, and wife signed listons, and manager signed fitzsimmons, and wife signed fitzsimmons, and secretarial signed Sullivan, and wife signed Marciano, and secretarial signed Louis, should I keep going?

They need a lot more experts in all fields, they need to slow down, they need to stop promising instant turnaround, they need to do about 30 other things.

They have known this for years, they implement NO reforms. Sorry, not a big fan of the status quo. I can't wait to see parts 2-10.