Cleveland Naps Real Photo Postcard - Help w/ Player IDs

[Greenmonster]

Any help identifying the players on this postcard would be appreciated. Thank you.

[ullmandds]

nice!

[WillowGrove]

No help whatsoever but really cool postcard.

oh and i think i see Joe Jackson in there. Kidding.

Great card....good luck w IDs

[Runscott]

Fantastic postcard!

[wazoo]

Great looking action shots!

[judsonhamlin]

I think that the right handed player with his back to the camera is most likely the pitcher or catcher and the player to the right would be the firstbaseman The Cleveland player behind the ump would be the shortstop or pitcher if the catcher is in the foreground with the second baseman off camera to the viewer's right.
The game action looks like a run down, perhaps. As far as the runner, it looks (and this is a guess) that he is a St.Louis Brown based on the cap.
It is also an early season game given the bare trees in the background. They opened the 1906 season against the Browns, so that may help.
If that is the pitcher behind the ump, how about Rhoades?

[milkit1]

The one in the background sure looks like Cy Young to me. It appears the catcher is running down the runner to second. I think the player on the right with his glove on his left hand is probably george Stovall though its just too hard to tell from that angle. the years can only be between 1905-1909. Young joined Cleveland in 1909. he seemed to be pudgier by that time but that player standing in the background could almost certainly be the pitcher in that position and that player has a strong resemblance to Young.

[nolemmings]

From Okkonen's work, it would appear to me to be from 1909. I agree it is likely a St. Louis Brown in the rundown.

It appears to be a rundown between first and second. Is the player on the right lefthanded? seems so (is the left hand in a glove or clenched?). The problem is that Cleveland had no lefty first basemen in 1909, and had really no left-handed pitchers either (the top 7 were RH and the most appearances by a southpaw was 7 for the season). That would leave a RF coming in on a rather prolonged rundown, since it wouldn't be a catcher, 2b or SS--Wilbur Good?

The player chasing the runner does not look like a catcher to me--wrong build and no gear, meaning it's a pitcher or 1b. I agree the second sacker is off camera, and the SS may be as well. Given how far he is from the play, the man behind the umpire is either a pitcher or 3b, IMO. Seems he may be too far up on the grass for 3B.

[milkit1]

Hi Todd, the pitcher and firstbasemen appear to be right handed to me. they have their gloves on their left hand. The mroe I look at it the more Im convinced that is Cy Young and George Stovall

[nolemmings]

Hi Sean,

I don't think the guy with the ball chasing the runner is a catcher--where are the chest protector straps or the shin guards (and wouldn't his cap be off or on backwards?)? That leaves a 1B or a pitcher.

I thought the man on the right showed a bare left hand, but perhaps you're right, that's a glove strap on his wrist--although the knuckles should not be showing like that?

[milkit1]

he does look rather stocky though. perhaps he ripped off whatever protection he was wearing. Its impossible to tell though. The one person though I really am getting convinced of is Cy Young

[Rob D.]

If this postcard is from the series I think it is, it likely dates from the mid teens. I have 21, all of which originally entered the hobby from a single source. The PCs originally were thought to be produced by a Cleveland newspaper. I will try to dig mine out later and find the one or two that help pinpoint the years. If the OP could post a scan of the back, that might help.

Of course, the origin of this one could be totally different from mine, but I was struck right away by the similar "look." Another possiblity is that images from earlier seasons were produced at a later date, but none of mine indicate that was the case.

[daves_resale_shop]

Very Cool PC... are the guys standing on the left field berm police or fans???

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by Greenmonster

Any help identifying the players on this postcard would be appreciated. Thank you.

Can we see the back of the postcard, please?

[Rob D.]

I just noticed that the left-field grandstands are different in the OP's postcard than in one of the ones I posted. League Park was rebuilt before the 1910 season (one of the PCs I have, shown below, pictures a construction crew working on the pitcher's mound on the date 9-28-09, marked in the lower-left corner). It was during this construction that double-decker grandstands were added. So, based on that, the image in the original OP was taken during a season before 1910.

The previous owner of the PCs in my collection researched many of the photos and identified the pitcher throwing in the outfield (above) as Jim Baskette, who played for Cleveland in 1911-13. The player pictured (above) in the car is Ray Chapman, who played for Cleveland 1912-1920. So I think it's safe to say that these postcards were either issued over several years, or the manufacturer used photos from several seasons.

Of course, this attempt to narrow down a date of the OP's postcard is all for naught if it is from a different series/manufacturer. Below is a scan of the back of one of my PCs, all of which are the same.

[Greenmonster]

Thank you to all on the board for your thoughts and research.

Rob, those are some wonderful postcard views..21 in the collection, that's incredible. Most likely one of a kind cards.

I've posted a view of the back of the card as requested, it's dated March 1910.

I think the image is from 1908 based upon the uniforms the Naps are wearing, you can just see the insignia on the uniform the "pitcher" in the postcard is wearing, I think it's the same as the 1908 uniform below (1908 on left, 1909 on right).

The player on the right does appear to be George Stovall. The "pitcher" is tougher, he looks young and tall to me, the Naps did have a young 6'1" pitcher, Ed Foster, who only pitched 6 games in the major leagues. I can't find an image of him.

[milkit1]

I still say it's cy young. He began with the naps in 09 and he may have gotten in pretty good shape early in the season to impress his new team. Also may have been the whole reason the photographer was there who knows

[nolemmings]

The reason I guessed 1909 is that the caps were all white with no stripe that year, and the '08 uniforms show a stripe on the cap. The insignia is indeterminate to me, but looks more like the swooping '09 "C" than the more intricate example from the prior year.

Jim, if you believe the "pitcher" is the one with the insignia showing, then do you also believe it is the catcher doing the chasing? I can't get my head around that for reasons stated, i.e. no gear. If it's not the catcher doesn't it either have to be the 1B or a pitcher, with the guy facing the camera a 3b or SS? By the way, I disagree with Sean on that player being Cy Young-- he looks too baby-faced to be that grizzled old hurler.

A rundown like this is not a common play, especially with no other runners on base, which I think we can assume from the lack of attention being shown anywhere else. The batter either reached and rounded too far, got picked off or somehow the batter was retired at first and this shows a prior base-runner after the force has been removed. If that is Stovall on the right then maybe an OF threw behind the batter after a single that Stovall tried to play, which would explain why he would be out of position for the rundown. The other scenarios should not have him where he is shown, should they?

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Greenmonster

The player on the right does appear to be George Stovall.

The player on the right is wearing a regular Deadball Era fielder's glove, not a first baseman's glove. It is very unlikely that he is Stovall.

From what can be seen of the uniforms given the limited resolution of the scans as posted, this may be either 1908 or 1909.

[milkit1]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

The reason I guessed 1909 is that the caps were all white with no stripe that year, and the '08 uniforms show a stripe on the cap. The insignia is indeterminate to me, but looks more like the swooping '09 "C" than the more intricate example from the prior year.

Jim, if you believe the "pitcher" is the one with the insignia showing, then do you also believe it is the catcher doing the chasing? I can't get my head around that for reasons stated, i.e. no gear. If it's not the catcher doesn't it either have to be the 1B or a pitcher, with the guy facing the camera a 3b or SS? By the way, I disagree with Sean on that player being Cy Young-- he looks too baby-faced to be that grizzled old hurler.

A rundown like this is not a common play, especially with no other runners on base, which I think we can assume from the lack of attention being shown anywhere else. The batter either reached and rounded too far, got picked off or somehow the batter was retired at first and this shows a prior base-runner after the force has been removed. If that is Stovall on the right then maybe an OF threw behind the batter after a single that Stovall tried to play, which would explain why he would be out of position for the rundown. The other scenarios should not have him where he is shown, should they?

Look at that gut! Lol. Cy Young all the way

[milkit1]

Not sure how well this will show up. Here is either the 09 or 10 naps. There isn't anyone even close to looking like the guy other then young. I agree he appears younger but might just be the angle or lighting. Probably no way to really know but it's fun to look into!

[judsonhamlin]

Presuming this is an early 1909 shot, can anyone ID the umpire? Maybe Silk O'Laughlin? Can't find photos of Kerin or Egan, but we can rule out Sheridan, Connolly, Hurst and Dinneen. That leaves Silk, Evans or Perrine.
The only reason I thought the closest figure might be the catcher was what looked to be a larger glove on his left hand.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by milkit1

There isn't anyone even close to looking like the guy other then [Cy] Young.

First you have to appreciate how difficult it is to have a definite ID on a face so lacking in detail (below left is what we are dealing with from Greenmonster's scan). I don't claim to be certain, but he could just as well be Glenn Liebhart who pitched a lot of games in 1908 (below center and right).

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

The only reason I thought the closest figure might be the catcher was what looked to be a larger glove on his left hand.

Most Deadball Era first baseman's gloves looked like somewhat smaller versions of catcher's mitts.

[milkit1]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

First you have to appreciate how difficult it is to have a definite ID on a face so lacking in detail (below left is what we are dealing with from Greenmonster's scan). I don't claim to be certain, but he could just as well be Glenn Liebhart who pitched a lot of games in 1908 (below center and right).

Can you post a similar pic of yyoung? I cant photo edit but I don't see it being liebhardt.

[nolemmings]

can anyone ID the umpire? Maybe Silk O'Laughlin? Can't find photos of Kerin or Egan, but we can rule out Sheridan, Connolly, Hurst and Dinneen. That leaves Silk, Evans or Perrine.

It's not O'Laughlin or Billy Evans.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by milkit1

Can you post a similar pic of yyoung? I cant photo edit but I don't see it being liebhardt.

OK

[judsonhamlin]

I think the game might have been one of the April 22-24, 1909 series vs. St. Louis at Cleveland. Bob Rhoades lost the home opener on the 22nd.
Some quick look ups also show Joss as the starter on the 22nd and Cy Young starting on the 23rd. A pitcher named Sitton started the 24th. So, could this be 4/23/09? o'Laughlin and Kerin umpired the game.