T206 Wagner & Plank....anti-tobacco dudes....printed together on a sheet

[tedzan]

The exciting 1908 baseball season which culminated with the Cubs edging out the Giants and Detroit edging out Cleveland....and, the Cubs winning the World Series
generated a nationwide fervor for BB. This intensity continued into the 1909 season, as was evident by the huge record breaking attendance at Opening Day of the
brand new Philadelphia A's stadium, Shibe Park.

Early in 1909 the American Tobacco Co. (ATC) realizing a big opportunity here embarked on producing the T206 series of BB cards. ATC with their close affiliate, the
American Lithographic Co. (ALC), started as early as Spring Training of 1909 acquiring player's permission to include them in their BB card set.


First BB game at Shibe Park....April 12, 1909 **

............ "Doc" Powers ......................v




So far we have not found complete (or partial) sheets of T206 cards. But, we have examples of 150 series, 350 series and 460 series formats that suggest to us how
certain sheets were printed. One such example is the group of 34 subjects printed with SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory 30 backs (and other 150 series T-brand backs).
Many of you know of my long time theory that ALC printed all their sheets of T206 (and T205) cards in "columns of 12". And, there are many examples of this factor
in play in the various other T-sets produced by ALC that support this theory of mine.

I will begin with this group which comprises of 34 subjects, since there is a high probability that these cards were printed in a very early press run (which followed the
initial 12 subjects that are referred to as the 150-only subjects). An analysis of the players in this group of 34 indicates that 60% of them are Pitchers & Catchers.
I will venture to claim that two subjects are missing from the designed format of this group, because 34 is not evenly divisible by 12. Therefore, I contend there were
originally 36 guys arranged in this format.

Eddie Plank is my candidate for one of these missing guys. Thus, if Plank is the guy, then Honus Wagner must be the 2nd missing guy. Since we have evidence that
Plank and Wagner were printed on the same sheet in the PIEDMONT 150 and SWEET CAPORAL 150 press runs.





Plank's inclusion makes a lot of sense to me. He was one of the major pitching stars of that era. Plus, his 9-year battery mate, "Doc" Powers, is also included in this format.
Given that ALC printed Wagner & Plank with this group; only their cards with SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30 and Factory #25 backs were shipped to NYC and Richmond (VA)
Cigarette factory's, respectively. We all know the Wagner story. ALC stopped shipping Wagner's card fairly early in the game.

Plank was anti-tobacco in any form *** (but, mellow Eddie wasn't as vocal about it as Wagner). It's unknown when Plank informed ALC to cease & desist issuing his T206
card. We do know that ALC continued printing & shipping a number of Plank's T206 cards when they subsequently printed their SWEET CAPORAL 350 Factory #30 press run.

In any event, less than 100 - T206 cards (each) of Wagner and Plank are in circulation.


** Note
The A's fans were ecstatic, as Eddie Plank beat Boston. But, the day ended in a sad note when Plank's long-time battery mate, Doc Powers, was rushed to the hospital.
Two weeks later, Powers died from intestinal complications.




*** Note
"Connie Mack, and the early years of Baseball", by Norman Macht


OK....others will disagree with my "columns of 12" theory, and that's fine. This thread is intended to evoke some thought-provoking, meaningful discussion on this subject.


350 series format of T206 cards to follow............


TED Z

[tedzan]

"Columns of 12" example in the 350 series......this format is derived from the 1910 COUPON issue comprising of the 48 Major Leaguers in this set.






460 series format of T206 cards to follow............



TED Z

[tedzan]

Here is my concept of a 96-card printed sheet comprising of the T206's in the 460-only series, which I refer to as the "Exclusive 12" subjects.
These 12 subjects were printed on a sheet of their own. Separate from the other 36 subjects that were printed with only 460 series backs.
This scan represents a very plausible illustration of my "columns of 12" hypothesis.

For more info regarding the "Exclusive 12" cards, check-out this thread..... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=163949





T205 format example to follow............


TED Z

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

And the countdown for a heated discussion on printing begins.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Plank was anti-tobacco in any form *** (but, mellow Eddie wasn't as vocal about it as Wagner). It's unknown when Plank informed ALC to cease & desist issuing his T206 card. TED Z

Ted there is absolutely no shred of evidence that I’m aware of that Eddie Plank ever took any action to discontinue/interfere with the production of his premium insert card produced by the ALC for distribution with ATC products.

Do you have something more than Plank didn’t like tobacco, or the hall of fame dinner where a person of a person said he didn’t like tobacco. If so please provide that info.

Otherwise it’s not about “when” he did something but more about “if” he ever did anything at all?

[tedzan]

Good morning John

Thanks for bringing this up. I have done some research on this, but no luck (yet) in finding a "smoking cigarette (gun)" to confirm my claim that Eddie Plank
contacted ALC (or ATC) to have his T206 card removed. If as I said....a "cease & desist" order was issued to discontinue marketing the Plank card, we will
never find out. Because, as a veteran lawyer some years ago told me, such trivial legal actions of that era were discarded many, many years ago.

Eddie Plank is described by Connie Mack in the book that I cited............
"The secret of Plank's pitching is no secret at all. It is a good strong arm, a powerful constitution to back it, and neither drinks, smokes, chews, nor swears.."

Furthermore, Connie Mack and several of his collegiate players were anti-tobacco....including Eddie Collins. This may explain why his 150 series (batting pose)
card was never issued.

Ten years ago, I had a nice long conversation with Connie Mack III at a Philadelphia A's Historical Society luncheon. We talked about his famous Grandad and
the A's of the 1903-1914 era. A lot of interesting stuff; and, I mention this here because he confirmed many things that I had read over the years regarding
Connie Mack.

OK, I base my claim on circumstantial evidence. I certainly don't buy the old myth that "the printing plates were broken." So, I'm curious as to why you think
the T206 Plank was "yanked" ?



.


TED Z

[atx840]

Totally useless info here but based off of this miscut (not mine), the Chance & Cobb super prints were printed side by side @ one point.

[steve B]

Ted- In the first post I think you meant factory 649OP rather than factory 30.


The closest thing to actual evidence for Plank being pulled over objections is the piece of the F649 packing log that specifies "other than Philadelphia area".

My current thinking is that it could have gone a few different ways. All obviously speculation. And there could be a combination of some of them.

1)Plank like Wagner was printed assuming permission would eventually happen. Both players never gave permission, and both were pulled. Maybe Wagner was more likely to sue, maybe Plank was a bit more open to compromise. Either way, Wagner was pulled completely, Plank allowed existing cards to be sold but not around Philadelphia.

1a) Perhaps Plank had an agreement with another company like American Caramel that was limited to the Philadelphia area.

2)Plank was pulled in favor of including more Powers cards and that distribution was specific to Philadelphia. So Plank was very short printed for the 150 series, and was planned for 350 but his objection arose between series.

2a) Because he'd allowed permission but thought it was for ONLY the 150 series and expected payment for each year.

2b) He felt slighted over being pulled. Admittedly a very long reach on this one pulling him would be an odd choice since there were so many lesser player that could be pulled.

2c) He didn't realize he'd been included without his approval until later.

2d) His agreement with American Caramel would begin for 1910 and was exclusive. and his agreement with ALC or ATC was vague about how long his image could be used. so he couldn't be in the 350 series.

3) There was a conflict between ATC and Philadelphia caramel over the image used. That image is only in a few sets, T206, E95, and E107. E107s were too early, But E95 and T206 coincide. (There may be other sets, that I've missed)

4)There actually was an issue with at least one printing plate or stone. I've become convinced the cards were printed from stones. Two of the four P150 Planks show an odd scratch or maybe crack that doesn't fit the other P150 scratches. It's possible that one of the last runs of P150 had a lot go wrong and included Plank. That doesn't really explain the non-Piedmonts being as rare without some odd production methods. If they did need constant printing to keep up then it might make sense. A days worth of fronts printed for Piedmont, back plate breaks, printing stops, but some of the days production gets sent to a different press or presses to get SC backs. The delay is substantial, so the Piedmont front plates are resurfaced since the SC fronts are still in production. Eventually the leftovers are given SC350 backs.
That's pretty crazy from a manufacturing standpoint, but possible.
It might be provable. That proof would require a group of specifically identifiable fronts with few or no P150's a few SC 150's and very few SC350's, which would all be sheetmates with the Planks.

I'm not so sure Wagner would have been on the same sheet. If it was, that could be a further explanation for Plank being pulled.
The mismatch of the backs pattern for Plank and Wagner are both part of why I think they were not on the same sheet, but at the same time are also one of the pointers to the plates being totally redone for the 350 series. And YES, those concepts conflict with each other. If the 350's and 150's are entirely different then then Plank and Wagner may have been on the same sheet. (And Conroys hat pretty much proves 150 and 350 are different. )

I'm thinking that in between the 150s and 350s there are some very rare cards waiting to be recognized. None will be as flashy as Wagner, Plank or Magie, but they'll be just as tough. (150 fronts with 350 backs, or cards from the withdrawn sheets)

Steve B

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

Ted- In the first post I think you meant factory 649OP rather than factory 30.

I said SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory's #30 & #25....and, that's exactly what I meant. These are the only 2 factory's that the Wagner and Plank were shipped to,
to be issued in cigarette packs.

The SC 150 Factory #649 subjects are important, in that they serve the purpose of clueing us as to what subjects were printed in this early SC 150 series format.
Remember, prior to the overprints on these cards, they were initially printed with SC 150 Factory #30 backs.

Originally Posted by steve B

1)Plank like Wagner was printed assuming permission would eventually happen. Both players never gave permission, and both were pulled. Maybe Wagner was more likely to sue, maybe Plank was a bit more open to compromise. Either way, Wagner was pulled completely,

Plank allowed existing cards to be sold but not around Philadelphia.

I brought this up recently, since his SC 350 cards are only out of Factory #30 NYC. The regional distribution from this factory of these Sweet Cap packs was limited
to New York and New England.

Originally Posted by steve B

1a) Perhaps Plank had an agreement with another company like American Caramel that was limited to the Philadelphia area.

2c) He didn't realize he'd been included without his approval until later.

2d) His agreement with American Caramel would begin for 1910 and was exclusive. and his agreement with ALC or ATC was vague about how long his image could be used. so he couldn't be in the 350 series.

3) There was a conflict between ATC and Philadelphia caramel over the image used. That image is only in a few sets, T206, E95, and E107. E107s were too early, But E95 and T206 coincide. (There may be other sets, that I've missed)
Steve B

I posted a 2 threads on this forum in 2006 and 2007 spelling out exactly this. Here is the link to one of them......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...6+plank+theory

Best regards,


TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted, my thoughts on Plank I posted in previous thread some time ago. My thoughts on Plank given what we know about the cards isn’t as exciting as legal actions, moral stands, broken plates etc. I think we as collectors really tend to overthink these things.

In terms of the cards I still find it amazing that the 350’s are so below the 150’s in terms of quality. While that can be the case for many 150’s vs. 350’s not one card I’m aware of has such a night and day difference as Plank. Even the best 350’s don’t come close to the 150’s…I think that shouldn’t be ignored when discussing this card.

Here were my thoughts and the previous thread…

Sometimes to me the simplest explanation is the most plausible…Occam’s razor if you will.

My theory is the T206 Plank card is a victim of bad timing and planning.

What I do know and this could be challenged as I don’t claim to know of all the Planks out there. However having kept pretty good records and images of most since around say 1999 I’ve noticed one thing. A good chunk of these cards are 350 series only about 17-20 of the 50+ sold Planks I’ve seen come across the auction block have been 150’s. Of this 17-20 (150’s) this includes the 4 Piedmont examples. Now one could argue people keep the better looking 150’s and dumped the 350’s at auction but I think in the 13 or so years we would have seen a few more.

Given the numbers of 150 vs. 350 I think Plank was added late in the 150 printing process and was obviously carried to the 350. Then for whatever reason was dumped from the sheet for another player, or was missed when laying out the second run of 350’s therefore making him a short printed card. Add a hundred plus years of bicycle spokes and mom’s tossing cards and I’m paying big bucks for Mr. Plank.

What was the process of the sheets, why or how I have no idea. Some folks on here mainly Tim Cathey, Jim Rivera and you Chris along with others have done a good job trying to figure it out etc.

The whole anti-tobacco thing I have a hard time getting behind for two main reasons. Plank is in other tobacco sets mainly via his Horner photo being used on a lot of them. Then second if there really was this anti-tobacco action from Plank why was he carried over to 350? Seems to me if I’m getting nasty grams from Plank I’m not doing two printings of him.

I also add my personal experience into this. Owning a company of which one of our divisions is producing premiums and or retail products for entertainment based IP’s. I know how things get misplaced or made in smaller qty’s due to timing or just simple human oversight. I doubt it was any different 100+ years ago short of technology.

Like I said I’m sure this could be torn apart, but ultimately it’s a theory and with no smoking gun or proof all we can do is speculate…this is my speculation.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=159666

Cheers,

John

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Ted there is absolutely no shred of evidence that I’m aware of that Eddie Plank ever took any action to discontinue/interfere with the production of his premium insert card produced by the ALC for distribution with ATC products.

Do you have something more than Plank didn’t like tobacco, or the hall of fame dinner where a person of a person said he didn’t like tobacco. If so please provide that info.

Otherwise it’s not about “when” he did something but more about “if” he ever did anything at all?

John, I love it when you get in an argument with Ted and pull out your Plank

Those are beauties!

[wonkaticket]

Thanks Scott LOL.

Don't own the 150 anymore sold last year was a great card I sort of miss it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I said SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory's #30 & #25....and, that's exactly what I meant. These are the only 2 factory's that the Wagner and Plank were shipped to,
to be issued in cigarette packs.

Ummm.....

Originally Posted by tedzan

So far we have not found complete (or partial) sheets of T206 cards. But, we have examples of 150 series, 350 series and 460 series formats that suggest to us how
certain sheets were printed. One such example is the group of 34 subjects printed with SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory 30 backs (and other 150 series T-brand backs).

You can see where I might be confused. There's 153 confirmed SCF30s with 34 of them getting the 649OP eventually. Not a big deal, I just thought the bit above might not be clear about why those 34 cards would be discussed.

Originally Posted by tedzan

The SC 150 Factory #649 subjects are important, in that they serve the purpose of clueing us as to what subjects were printed in this early SC 150 series format.
Remember, prior to the overprints on these cards, they were initially printed with SC 150 Factory #30 backs.




I brought this up recently, since his SC 350 cards are only out of Factory #30 NYC. The regional distribution from this factory of these Sweet Cap packs was limited
to New York and New England.




I posted a 2 threads on this forum in 2006 and 2007 spelling out exactly this. Here is the link to one of them......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...6+plank+theory

Best regards,


TED Z

Both true, and that's where those parts of the ideas come from. Until there's something concrete I have to think of them as just ideas. While some of my ideas are new (or rather the concepts are new as far as looking at cards) They must include the previous and other current thoughts as possibilities.

The rest is a bit of a more complicated version of what John has said. Plank was a victim of bad planning or timing or something. That's the simple explanation.
Of course with a year and a half to include him later the question becomes what exactly happened. I can't really see Plank getting dropped because of simple bad timing and not added back in later. So the question becomes what exactly happened. Maybe they really did simply make a mistake and didn't catch it.

Steve B

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

Ummm.....

The rest is a bit of a more complicated version of what John has said. Plank was a victim of bad planning or timing or something. That's the simple explanation.
Of course with a year and a half to include him later the question becomes what exactly happened. I can't really see Plank getting dropped because of simple bad timing and not added back in later. So the question becomes what exactly happened. Maybe they really did simply make a mistake and didn't catch it.

Steve B

This scenario is too arbitrary, or hap-hazard to me. First, by the end of 1908, Plank had won 150 games in less than 1/2 of his career. He was a "Big-Big Name" !
2nd, as is evident throughout the better part of the T206 set, ALC's planning was pretty damn good.

My thinking in this matter is....when ALC representatives went down to Spring Training in February/March 1909, they were getting permission from these players.
If we include Plank, 21 of the these 36 guys in this format are Pitchers & Catchers. Some of them gave written permission and others vocal. Perhaps, Plank gave
his say-so to ALC then.
However, when Wagner later went public with his anti-tobacco "rant". Plank had a change of mind.

Isn't it funny.....Wagner smoked Cigars throughout his years.....so I found his public rant insincere.

Anyhow, that';s how I see it.


TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by tedzan

This scenario is too arbitrary, or hap-hazard to me. TED Z

No more hap-hazard than creating elaborate theories and presenting them framed as historical facts and happenings with not shred one of evidence to support such complex claims.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

No more hap-hazard than creating elaborate theories and presenting them framed as historical facts and happenings with not shred one of evidence to support such complex claims.

I agree with this statement.

From the movie "The Internship" (I think that was the name of it)-

"If you fight for your limitations, you get to keep them"

If you want to mold things to fit your theory about sheet size, you can

Sincerely, Clayton

[tedzan]

Hey guys......here is that recurring 12 factor again.

The artistic designs of these 12 Minor Leaguers (ML) are unlike the other T205 designs. All 12 of these subjects represent teams in the Eastern League.
These 12 subjects were printed only with two T-brand backs: HASSAN Factory #649 or POLAR BEAR. The bios on the backs of these cards suggest
that these 12 ML were printed at the tail end of the T205 press run (either in late 1911 or early 1912). And, I would venture to say that these 12 guys
were printed on a separate sheet of their own.


Illustrated here is a theoretical 48-card sheet of the T205 Minor Leaguers (may have also been printed as a 96-card sheet).













Examples like this T205 Minor League group of 12
and,
the Exclusive 12 of the T206 (460-only) series....Post #3
and,
the 12 subjects in the T206 150-only group
and,
the 350 series printing of the T206 48 - Southern Leaguer subjects
and,
the 12 x 4 format of Major Leaguers in the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) set....Post #3
and,
similar examples in the T215 set............
plus,
other structural series in the T206 set (not yet mentioned) combine to make it quite obvious that the cards were formatted in columns of 12.
These facts are certainly enough evidence to my thinking that this pattern may have been American Lithographic's printing format.


TED Z
.

[wonkaticket]

Ted, not going to go back and forth with you for hours nor will I have you twist my comments around either. My comment has nothing to due with your sheet layouts for T205s etc. you know this.

My comment above is about you claiming in a factual way that Eddie Plank had his card pulled by bringing action against the ALC. This is something you have no proof of yet you make comments like the below. So as said prior provide evidence of this event, or admit it's "your" take on what happened and leave it at that.

"Plank was anti-tobacco in any form *** (but, mellow Eddie wasn't as vocal about it as Wagner). It's unknown when Plank informed ALC to cease & desist issuing his T206 card"

Stop framing your ideas/posts as factual events. Neither you nor I or anyone else knows for sure why the T206 Plank is scarce. The only difference is I'm a big enough person to admit that I don't know for sure and am willing to listen to others thoughts.

Drop the drama act already. Believe me Ted I won't take your word as you instructed and it's that very reason your upset because I won't take you at your word on claims like the above.

The one thing the hobby is not short on in terms of T206s is experts...Planks yes experts nope plenty of them.

John

[tedzan]

I misunderstood your comments in a prior post....and, I apologize for this.

From now on, I will keep my theory(s) regarding the T206 Plank card to myself.

Incidently, I deleted my sarcastic remark in the above T205 post....sorry about that, too.

I would like a favor from you. You have tracked the T206 Plank's for quite some time. Could you provide me a breakdown
of the Sweet Cap 150 backed cards with respect to the Factory #25 vs. the Factory #30 ones.

Whenever convenient....I would really appreciate this.

TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted, yes I will send you the breakdown and no worries. Your thoughts are as good as anyone else's when it comes to the Plank card as I said nobody really knows so its anyone's guess. Just sometimes your thoughts are typed in a way that seems more like a declared fact vs. an educated guess that's all I'm saying.

Cheers,

John

[Leon]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Ted, yes I will send you the breakdown and no worries. Your thoughts are as good as anyone else's when it comes to the Plank card as I said nobody really knows so its anyone's guess. Just sometimes your thoughts are typed in a way that seems more like a declared fact vs. an educated guess that's all I'm saying.

Cheers,

John

John, you are both good guys. You have to admit at least Ted is being proactive in putting out a hypothesis, like so many others aren't. A different word here or there, and phrased a bit differently, and you guys are singing from the same hymnal. Just like the good ole days!!

[wonkaticket]

Leon, agree have no ill will towards Ted anyone who collects cards is golden in my book (with a few exceptions).

[Jcfowler6]

Is it possible the Planks or Wagners were withheld to get people to buy more tobacco products chasing them?

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Jcfowler6

Is it possible the Planks or Wagners were withheld to get people to buy more tobacco products chasing them?

I've wondered about this as well.

I've also wondered if the stories about Wagner being anti-tobacco are slightly inflated, or have become so over the years. Like maybe there's some truth to it, but over the years it picked up steam and grew to be thought of as fact as to why there are so little of his cards, when it may not be the reason at all. I only say this because-he did use tobacco, and his likeness was even used on tobacco packaging.

Another thing is- I can see the reasoning behind not wanting to promote smoking to children, but- I remember watching a silent movie once and they had a young kid (who appeared to be maybe 8 or 9 years old) smoking a cigarette around adults, like it was normal! It was bizarre, but maybe common in those times? I don't know.

Another thing is- I feel that just because someone doesn't use something doesn't necessarily mean they are "anti" that particular thing. Using myself as an example, I don't drink alcohol, and haven't for years- but, I am not "anti-alcohol". I am not against other people choosing to use it. Maybe a lame example and I can come up with others but hopefully I'm making a point

Great discussion, and interesting theories.

Sincerely, Clayton

[tedzan]

Thanks for the memories (photo)......and, thanks for the complimentary words.


T-Rex TED

[Bpm0014]

I didnt think Plank went to college...

[tedzan]

Plank attended Gettysburg Academy (a prep school affiliated with Gettysburg College).

Gettysburg College pitching coach, Frank Foreman, was Plank's mentor for the years Plank pitched for the College team.
In the Spring of 1901, Foreman contacted his friend Connie Mack. Eddie Plank essentially went from Gettysburg College
team to the Philadelphia A's without any Minor League experience.

Nothing unusual about this, since Connie Mack preferred to scout his players directly from College BB teams.

Plank did not enroll in Gettysburg College.


TED Z

[hshrimps]

There are more Plank out there than Wagner. Am I wrong???

[steve B]

Nope, not wrong.

From the pop reports just now. With Magie thrown in for fun.

wagner
PSA SC 12
PSA P 0
PSA Unknown 21
SGC 13 SC150 12
SC 350 1 * tot 46
--------------------------------------------------------

Plank
SGC 28 p150 2
sc150 6
sc350 20

PSA SC 35
p 1
Unknown 30 tot 94
--------------------------------------------------------
Magie
PSA P 50
unknown 57
SGC p 55 tot 162


SGC shows a 350 Wagner. I have to think that's an error, or done very early when maybe they did all T206s as 1910.

Of course there are some that aren't graded. And At least a handful of crackouts or crossovers.

Steve B

[wonkaticket]

My two Planks above would mess up those Pops as they were both PSA at one time FWIW.

John

[sb1]

A fair number of many of the Wagner's and Plank's have been flipflopped in both companies holders.

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

My two Planks above would mess up those Pops as they were both PSA at one time FWIW.

John

[steve B]

I always view those numbers as merely approximate. They're still a bit useful for comparing cards in a general sense.

So I wouldn't think it unreasonable to say there are about twice as many Planks as there are Wagners.

I was surprised the numbers were as low as they are.
The estimated numbers of each out there vary, but the range I've seen is 70-100 Wagners. Lowering the number to account for crossovers puts it at maybe 40-45 graded? Hard to think that only half of the existing ones have been graded.

Steve B