PSA Population Reports

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Posted By: Tim

When looking at the PSA Population Reports for T206 cards there is a large number listed as "T206 Unknown Back" I read somewhere that when PSA first began grading these cards they did not record which back a card may have with the certificate information.

I have several cards that fall into this category and was wondering if PSA is doing anything to add which back a card may have to decrease the amount of unknowns and give a more accurate number in the Population Report.

I have emailed PSA with this questions and not received a reply of any kind.

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Posted By: Jantz

From what I know, PSA initially graded T206 cards and catagorized them by name & pose(variation) only. Then just recently, PSA began listing T206s by their backs also. This may have been a result from multiple customer requests, but I can't confirm that. As far as PSA decreasing the amount of unknowns, I don't see how they could since they never recorded this information from the start. PSA also recently started putting the back distinctions on the slab label. Keep in mind Tim that these population reports, both PSA & SGC, aren't exact. The pop report numbers are a little off because of collectors/dealers cracking slabs & resubmitting cards for various reasons.

Hope this helps,
Jantz

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Posted By: Tim

Jantz, thanks for the insight.

I hadn't given any thought to someone cracking a slab, resubmitting it and PSA now having records of both the old and new slabs.

With so many unknowns it just seems like the Population Reports are greatly lacking.

I guess it's aimed at the inexperienced collector when sellers use these numbers on Ebay in their descriptions. " Rare!!! 1 of 1, None Graded Higher!!!"

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Posted By: Jantz

I'm curious as to how PSA's half-grade system will affect the population report now. I guess time will tell.

Jantz

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Joe Orlando (President of PSA) indicated at the Set Registry luncheon at the National show last year that he hoped that, over time, people would be sending in their 'unknown back' T206's to be re-holdered under their new system that distinguishes the cards by back type. If enough people do this, eventually the T206 population reports will become easier to use and/or less confusing. Currently about 75% of the T206's graded by PSA still have the 'unknown back' designation, however, so this conversion process is going to take quite some time, even if people are motivated to do the re-submissions.

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Posted By: Jantz

I'm sure Joe Orlando IS hoping people will resubmit their cards for reholdering. If there were a little icon (like those smiley faces) that shows dripping sarcasm I would have added to the end of my comment.

Jantz

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Posted By: Tim

Did PSA mention any incentive for the collector to send in their card and have it reslabbed with the back information?

I would like to help get the correct information on my "T206 Unknown Backs", but I'm not sure I would send them in and pay the full grading cost and run the risk of having a grade lowered just to correct the Population Report.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

No, Joe didn't mention any incentive for people to send in their cards to get the back type added to the label. Basically, a bunch of people were grilling him about the confusion that had been introduced into the T206 population reports because of their decision to change their labelling system (from generic to back-specific), and that was the best answer he could come up with.

PSA does offer a Re-Holder service, which I think is only $5 per card, and there is no danger of a grade being lowered when you get this service. They are just re-encapsulating it with the same grade. In the case of T206's, this would presumably include adding the back type to the label (and a corresponding correction to their population report). I doubt whether many collectors would want to take the trouble to do this, just to improve the quality of the population reports.

By the way, if you send in a graded card to PSA for Review (and pay their full grading fees), they will not lower the grade; they will only raise it if they feel it deserves a bump up (for example, to one of the new half grades they have recently introduced).

If you break a card out of its holder and send it in raw, you could get a drop a grade (or worse, an assessment that the card has been altered).

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Posted By: Jantz

Echoing some of Eric's comment, PSA's website notes that they charge $5 to have a card reholdered and the turnaround time "varies on demand".

Jantz

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Posted By: Tim

So if I just wanted to have the card reholdered with the back information included it would cost me $5. However if I had a card that was graded a 4 under the old system that I thought could possibly come back a 4.5 under the new system, I could pay the full grading fee and worst case it would come back the same grade with the back now recorded, best case it would get a bump and have the back info recorded?

*edited for spelling

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Posted By: Jantz

Thats a good question. I'm not sure if they would change the label on a card that just gets sent in for review.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Tim, I think you got it right, although like Jantz I'm not 100% certain that if you send a card in for Review they will break open the holder to update the label to include the back type if they are not going to increase the original grade assigned.

Anyhow, I just sent in a T206 Mordecai Brown Portrait for re-holdering because it had been mis-labelled (and mis-catalogued in the registry data base) as T206 Mordecai Brown Cubs Shirt (i.e. they had the wrong pose recorded). In addition to correcting the pose type, they also added the back type 'Piedmont' to the label (they just did this as part of the service, I didn't specifically request it) -- so it now says T206 Piedmont Mordecai Brown Portrait instead of T206 Mordecai Brown Cubs Shirt. This re-holdering service cost me $5, plus shipping costs. The turnaround time (which they don't guarantee on re-holdering, as Jantz said), from the time they received it until they shipped it back to me, was about two weeks.

Here are before and after pics of the holders:

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Posted By: Tim

Let me start this off with I am very new to T206 collecting so excuse my ignorance if I show it.

The following card was graded a 4 under the new grading system.

[IMG][/IMG]

This card was graded a 4 under the old grading system and is listed as an "Unknown Back"

[IMG][/IMG]

The corners are much sharper and the centering is much better on the Willis than the Wheat. Is it worth it to send the card in for regrading or would you just send it in for reholdering and have the back included?

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Tim, I would suggest contacting PSA to see if they in fact will add the back type to a T206 that is submitted for Review but doesn't get a grade bump. Then you can decide which service (Re-Holder or Review) would be better to try.

I can't tell by looking at the Willis card scan whether it would likely get a bump to 4.5 or 5.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Hi Eric,

Since PSA mislabeled your Brown (Portrait), I believe you could have sent it back to them on a submission form stating "mechanical error" and they would have reholdered for you at no charge (except for the cost of shipping, which you would still have to pay). I did this with a Rhoades (Right Arm Extended) which had been mislabeled as Rhodes (St. Louis). The turnaround time was the same as the normal reholdering service--about two weeks.

Scot

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Hi Scot,

Thanks for the tip on that; it makes sense that PSA would correct their own errors at no charge. I'll try it next time.

Eric

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Posted By: Jantz

Tim - Its all a matter of your collecting preferences. If you want the label to say "Polar Bear", have it reholdered or if you want to shoot for a 5, then have it regraded. There really is no right or wrong answer. I think you should put the card in storage and let it sit for 6 months. After 6 months have passed see how you feel then about this situation. Bottom line is that you have a beautiful card & I know that I would love to own it. Being from Ohio, I tend to favor the Polar Bear T206s. Whether the card has a 4 or a 5 on the label really doesn't matter much to me. Those two grades are so close anyway I believe it all comes down to the graders opinion that particular day. Thats my .02 cents. Hope it helps you with your decision.

Jantz