Annoucement of a new Auction Company

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Perhaps I missed this earlier but have you procured insurance to cover the risk of loss of consigned items?

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Alan

Scott/Leon - I'll say it again: The only thing better in life than an auction catalog is a FREE auction catalog.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

How can this be compared to ebay? Whether your card is above or below $500 you would be a significantly higher fee than ebay. Ebay gives everyone the chance to put an item of any value up for auction, allow the fees are getting higher then are still lower than 12%.

You mention that ebay fees plus paypal are close to 10%, does that mean you will be accepting Paypal?

You also mention that the consignor does not have to worry about the packing and shipping? How are the cards going to get into your hands or the buyers?

Just a few questions. A lofty venture you are undertaking.

Just wanted to add that until you can offer a 5% fee ebay will still be the best alternative for cards under $500. The BST is still the best alternative if you don't try to get greedy with your prices.

Lee

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Posted By: leon

Adam- We are using Collectibles Insurance Agency for our insurance coverage.

Lee- We will not accept paypal. Folks will still need to send their cards to us but that is all. No scanning or dealing with anything like ebay. We know our auction venue won't be for everyone. We never planned on pleasing everyone. Once we start our auction you are welcome to bid if you register and see anything that suits your fancy. We aren't trying to hurt anyone or do anything wrong. All we want to do is run an ethical auction a few times a year and have fun collecting while we are doing it. Scott B made a good point several posts up in that we won't be allowed to bid in our own auctions. That could be one of the hardest things about this as we are both more passionate buyers than sellers. Take care...

edited to fix a typo and answer Jerry too.....

The numbers you are referring to are "views". We get about 900,000 total a month for all pages on the board....about 500,000 a month on the front page alone. The unique IP's could be high for various reasons but even 2000 good members would be quite a few. We don't think we need to take credit cards as we are offering Net Terms auctions (when allowed by consignors) where you don't have to pay 70% of the total cost for 90 days. That is longer than most credit cards give to pay. After it's all said and done credit card companies take about 3%-4% and we don't feel that is something we can offer at this time.

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Posted By: Zinn

"Good luck, gentlemen. I have signed up. Is it OK if i used you two as hobby references?"

I did the same thing.

I've read through most this and maybe a couple of questions have already been answered but...

How many lots do you anticipate having in any given auction?

What is the consignment cutoff for the May kickoff?

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Posted By: scott brockelman

We anticipate 100-200 lots for the first auction, however consignments will have a great bearing on that number. With the "internet" format we will be able to accept consignments very close to the actual start date, ideally we would like to have them in by the end of April.

Scott

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Lee, when an ebay seller sells a card on ebay he most often allows for a paypal payment which cuts into his take up to 7-8% oftentimes. And esoteric cards don't usually do so well on ebay. If Scott and Leon were selling 33 Goudeys or 58 Topps it would be one thing but the more obscure cards do not do as well on ebay as they do on the smaller auction stages. When you consider the vast reach of this board, I suspect the prices Scott and Leon will realize will be vastly higher than what ebay could offer. After all, Leon did pretty well selling a few of his cards on this site recently.

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Posted By: cmoking

As a buyer & consumer, I am all for more competition from sellers. So I'm glad there is an additional auction house around for cards. But here are two questions:


1. When you guys list a card/lot that you own, will you identify as such? I think Barry Sloate does that, and I really appreciate that. I don't know of other auction houses doing that.

2. This may not be any of my business, but I'm still nosey. What do you think the auction houses that advertise on Net54 will think about this? And do you think any of them will pull their ads?

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Posted By: leon

"1. When you guys list a card/lot that you own, will you identify as such? I think Barry Sloate does that, and I really appreciate that. I don't know of other auction houses doing that.

2. This may not be any of my business, but I'm still nosey. What do you think the auction houses that advertise on Net54 will think about this? And do you think any of them will pull their ads?"


1. I don't believe Barry does this at this point. We don't believe we will single out our items or any others. Our bidding records are available to be viewed by a 3rd party if anyone thinks there is an issue. For instance if you think there is an issue....you find a good 3rd party, unbiased, non-hobby person, and we will prove there are no improprieties going on. Records will be maintained forever. Most of my 19th Century stuff will be sold in these auctions and folks will know this material but it probably won't be marked in any special way.

2.I have spoken to a few banner advertisers. They don't have a problem. I hope we don't lose any. If they pull their ads then they won't be advertising on the most active vintage card forum on the internet. That is always an option (to not advertise) but the price point of this advertising, for the exposure they get, is still cheap by industry standards. BTW, you will see at least a few new advertisers in the next month....Hobby folks are starting to realize the audience we reach.....Big hobby names have contacted me recently about advertising. The main problem will be that there might have to be a waiting list to advertise.....It's going that well...

thanks for the well wishes.....we knew there would be a handful of people that have all kinds of objections (this is not aimed at you but you know who). ANYONE that knows Scott and I personally knows we are only trying to be another place to have fun in the hobby and where you can acquire great items for your collection. We will never please everyone but we will try......best regards

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Posted By: barrysloate

Two auctions ago I put an asterisk next to all the items I owned and nobody even commented about it. Last auction was all consignments, so it was a nonissue. For my May auction only two out of 182 lots are mine- one major and one minor. If anyone is interested which two I will tell them. I still don't know why this matters at all, but like I said, if anybody cares I will share.

And I know this thread is about B&L Auctions, not mine. I was just answering King's question.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Hey all my auctions are always mine I don't see what it matters either way. I am sure there is some good reasons both way but hay as long as the are not shilling them I say bring it on and thanks for bring the card to market.

Question: First off thanks for offering the grading services that is a great thing but if you receive a whole set of something will you grade the whole set and not just the stars? Because I hate when I consign something or bid on a set and they only grade the stars from a 25-400 card set. I can see why they don't grade all 600+ cards from a 60's set but come on grade a whole E95 or N300 set nice or not.

Thanks,
Trevor

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Posted By: scott brockelman

Agreed, any small set 25-50 cards should probably all be graded unless it were a lot of lower grade AUT-10 type of material which would speak for itself photo wise.

Obviously a larger 200-600 card set would probably have to have just the keys graded and the rest broken down by raw grades.

Scott

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

See that is one of my biggest pet peeves with auction houses. Why not just grade the rest and let people know what the grade is for sure a 20 10 or A and I think it would be a nice change to find an auction house that would grade all the cards sent to them raw plus I believe that it would make it easier on an auction house for description reasons. Well for whats it's worth I would bid way more heavy for a completely graded SGC set that I wanted. I just don't like to have to send cards in after I won a set. Just a pet peeve.

Thanks for the fast reply by the way,
Trevor

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Posted By: leon

I think you make a good point. I am sure this is something Scott and I will discuss in one of our board meetings . (that sounds so official) ...Now if every one of the cards would only be AUT - 10, then I am with Scott...I know I bought a set recently and they were AUT-30's....I got some of them raw and it was fine...I knew it was an off grade set...no big deal. I knew some wouldn't even get an AUT and then there were a few 30's....(btw it was a N172 Brownie subset from a recent Sloate Auction). I was very happy with the overall eye appeal of the subset...I think each case needs to be looked at individually but I do agree with what you are saying in essence.....

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, since you mentioned the 182 lots from your upcoming auction, shouldn't you at least provide us with some highlights? I'm sure Leon and Scott will want to know as well so as not to reprdouce lots in consecutive auctions.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Man you guys are on it. Thanks again for the fast reply Leon. See this is where I think auction houses have it wrong if a card is a blatant "A" then ok I can see why not to holder it but in most cases the average collector can not see what an advanced collector can from a scan and may think the card is a 10 or 20 and for that matter the difference in a 10 to a 20 to 30 can be hard to tell at times that is why I think all the cards need to be holdered. Man and all this coming from someone who ounce cracked cards and hated graded cards. I have been sent over to the dark side for sure. But at least I don't collect super high grade and I only collect the best SGC

Trevor

ps. Nice pick-up on the Brownies Leon. One of my favorite sub sets.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- this is Scott and Leon's thread, so it wouldn't be appropriate.

But I can tell you it's a lot of good stuff. Is that specific enough?

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Posted By: leon

If you want to throw a few teasers out or let anyone know a few things you will have in your auction you are more than welcome to start a thread. We won't see it as anymore advertising than a few other friendly companies have done. And someone has even asked you....or you may take it off line... Your call. As you know we spoke about this company Scott and I are doing and none of this new venture is a reflection on the fine auctions you have. I am one of your biggest fans and will continue to be. I also won't forget the real hospitality you and Judy showed me while I visited NY. That's (friendships) is what this hobby should be about and is a lot of what the hobby is about to me.........and then of course fighting tooth and nail to the bitter end to get what you want ......regards

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Posted By: John

Not sure what all the fuss is about over this catalog thing, I got mine yesterday!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Leon for all those kind words, but as Bruce says, it's all about winning and losing!!

Of course I don't agree with that maxim, and certainly will be as supportive as I can be with your new venture.

I think I'll save the highlights for a later date.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Trevor,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you really talking about EVERY card? Say, for example, that I have a lot of 90+ cards (85 or so different) from 1933 Goudey. Mostly commons, mostly in G-VG condition. Grading that lot would cost more than the value of the entire lot.

In Barry's last auction, a similar lot went for about $1200 (if memory serves me right). Even if it went for double that, completely graded, are you saying that Leon & Scott should eat the grading cost?

Not to mention, by grading it, you remove some of the pool of bidders. People who only buy raw are out.

I think it's judicious to use some judgement in this matter.

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Posted By: cmoking

"If anyone is interested which two I will tell them. I still don't know why this matters at all, but like I said, if anybody cares I will share."

Barry, it matters to me. I don't necessarily adjust my bid if it is owned by the auction house, but as a bidder, the more information, the better it is for me, and the more I feel comfortable. When your auction comes live, I will ask.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Jim you make a very good point. I was just saying what I would like to see, that doesn't mean it is law or what needs to happen. I can see how that would eat into bottom in for the auction house but it is still a very nice thing to offer and I am sure it will be handled on a case to case basis. As far as the raw collectors being out I disagree as I use to be that very same collector and I bought mainly graded and cracked them out.

Trevor

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Posted By: Mike (18colt)

Good evening.

Quick question --

Let's say someone were to consign a complete set of E95 or E96 (only 30 cards each, so it's feasible). Would you be more likely to:

a) auction off the cards as a set AND as singles? IF the ending price of the singles outbid the end price of the set as a whole, the singles win out. IF someone placed a bid on the set that outbid the singles as lots, then the set bidder wins. (Some auction houses do this.)

OR

b) auction the items off either as a set OR as singles?

I hope that question makes sense. Thanks in advance.

Mike (18colt)

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Posted By: leon

Good question and I think I understand it. I believe breaking sets or groups needs to be analyzed on a case by case basis. (That could be another very good thread actually.) We have all seen where some sets have gone crazy as a full set and some have not met what they would have fetched individually. I wouldn't want to pigeon hole myself into one idea or way of thinking. An example was the Brownies Champs set I bought. They were all lower grade so they went together nicely and made a nice looking set. I am not sure they would have garnered as much individually if broken up. I will say that more times than not I would rather do individual lots as opposed to groups. I feel it maximizes the price(s) most of the times...again, not all of the times. Some sets/groups do go better together. It's hard to say one is right or one is wrong as a blanket statement....Sorry I can't be more specific. Now if you gave me an example I could give my reasoning for what I would do.....thanks for the question.

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Posted By: Joann

There are some policies here that really get at some of the hobby issues we've all been talking about for quite awhile now, and I don't think they've got extensive mention yet.

BL will allow a reserve price option to sellers with seller paying the 12.5 if it doesn't hit the reserve. This gets directly to the nagging little concern people have that sellers bid on their own items (directly or through a friend) to make sure it hits some hidden reserve they have in mind. This policy will help get rid of that. If someone was going to bid his own card up to $XX as a hidden reserve, he was willing to pay the BF at that level. This just formalizes that informal practice and makes it transparent. It will also help make sure that the reserve option is used responsibly and reserves are reasonable - so sellers can't use Scott and Leon's auction just to test the market with no true intent to sell. As to shilling above the reserve, while it may still happen the primary motivator for shilling - to hit some preconceived mimimum - is removed.

The policy of retaining bidding records forever and making them available to third parties on a case-by-case basis is also a good one. It gets at some of the concerns frequently mentioned about any shady bidding practices protected by anonymous bidding. Someone that feels his max bid was bid up or whatever actually look into it if he feels strongly enough about it.

Finally, there is a clear and prominent statement that there will be absolutely no work done on a card of any kind. This may seem simple, but some auction houses don't even go this far. I think Leon and Scott have their reputations to thank for this being an effective statement in this case.

In short, it looks like they have been a bit creative in coming up with policies that address contentious hobby issues while still being manageable and fair to all involved. I think it would be great to see other auction houses follow suit - just to tighten the game and increase transparency, even for those houses that are completely honest in all dealings. It just makes the above-board dealing more obvious and clear.

It reminds me of what MEARS is trying to get at. At this point I'm still only bidding with houses (meaning REA) that have signed on to the MEARS policy - at least for 2008. But with policies like this that really get at the same concerns but are less intrusive, I might have to start looking for a loophole in my self-imposed restrictions here!

J

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Posted By: barrysloate

Joann- as an auctioneer myself I always listen to everything I can about what goes on in the auction business. I commend Leon and Scott for looking for ways to fine tune their business, and the idea of keeping records in perpetuity for third party examination sounds noble.

But what third party are we talking about? Who is going to knock on my door, or anyone else's, to look at the books? Finally, if I were thinking about cooking the books even with the possible threat of a third party audit, there are numerous ways to shill bid as much as one wants without ever getting caught. How about a dummy account of a bidder who doesn't even exist? That would work just fine.

My point is I already trust Leon and Scott so if they say they will not allow certain practices, as far as I'm concerned, their word is good enough for me. Is there such a thing as the honor system in this business, or is that just a quaint and antiquated idea?

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Posted By: barrysloate

On a different note I just looked into Leon's bicycle basket and there is a T206 Wagner, T210 Jackson, T4 Weaver, N172 Anson in Uniform, and what looks to be an N690 Ewing, though it is a little hard to see.

Wonka, how do you do it?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, you talk about an honor system amongst auctioneers but how can you realistically expect anyone to believe in such a thing when you've got one guy running a business whose prior vocation was multi-million dollar fraud, another company subject of an FBI probe for fraud and countless others in which anecdotal proof exists that shill bidding goes on? You're right: if you trust the guys who run the auctions you'll be ok -- but even some of that trust is misplaced.

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Posted By: Joann

Hi Barry,

I think you hit is squarely on the head with the comment on reputation. This hobby - and the business aspect of it - is very much driven on reputation. It amazes me sometimes how much money changes hands and how much of it is based on reputation, even in the face of so many very public and frequently discussed concerns.

I guess that's what I meant about tightening the game and making some practices more public and transparent even for honest sellers. If an auctioneer is already engaging in honest practices and able to put some structure to those practices, then why not make that published policy? I'm thinking about it more in terms of generating some momentum not just for certain practices, but for open proclamation that an auctioneer is abiding by some practices and providing certain safeguards.

I definitely understand there would be ways to defeat the attempts, system, safeguards, all of it. But maybe it's one of those cases where you say that just because we can't do everything doesn't mean we can't do anything. Every little bit helps, and if this week can be better than last week it should be - even if it can't be perfect.

And to be clear, I certainly was not implying that other houses are not honest if they don't do similar things. I'm just looking at it from the point of view of taking these good and honest concepts and practices and adding some structure and even publicity to them - making them part of the competitive landscape so to speak.

J

ETA: Oh hell no. I'd have completely missed the contents of the bike basket. Nice catch Barry. hahahah

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Posted By: barrysloate

There are auctioneers who have been convicted of fraud, as Jeff pointed out, but it doesn't seem to stop people from bidding or consigning. Funny business, these baseball cards.

Joann- I agree, no downside with what Leon and Scott are doing. I'm just curious who this team of auditors is who will come to one's place of business and go through one's computer files. It seems more theoretical than practical to me. I have nothing to hide but I don't want some busybody sitting at my desk rummaging through my computer files.

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Posted By: leon

You know I respect your thoughts very much. You make some good points and I think if you see Joanne's response you will see that she agrees too. We can only do what we can do to add the structure and transperancy as far as we can...A third party to me is someone like a CPA or a lawyer outside of the hobby to perform the brief service. I am positive that we, and/or a consignor, can come up with a good third party if need be. As for a dummy bidder....Well, when the 3rd party goes to call Mr.Dummy and no one is ever home it will raise a red flag. If you want someone to be real and fake bid for a consignor then knowing they might have to answer a question from a 3rd party who is investigating should be a deterrent. Yes, you can come up with a way to beat every check and balance we put in place but that is beside the point. We have come up with the best policies we can think of and are always open to suggestion. We hope everyone will be comfortable in our process. We will do our best to that end.....btw, I hope to see you bidding .....

edited to add...Barry- where did you see the word "team" of auditors....this would be able to be done very easily and most likely all over the internet...not teams of ruffians coming to doors to whack someone....


edited spellin' and some grammar...thanks Barry

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Posted By: barrysloate

Leon- I'm going to predict that if you and Scott run a hundred auctions there will be no need for a third party auditor. Why would a trustworthy auction house be subject to any kind of audit? It wouldn't be necessary.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ruffians.

Yes, I pictured a "cadre" of really big goons breaking into my office, beating the crap out of me, and then checking my records for shilling bidding. Isn't that how it works?

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Posted By: John

Just my two cents on this subject of trust and record keeping etc. The simple fact is since there is really no true unbiased removed third regulatory firm monitoring auction houses, grading companies and dealers it all just gets chalked up to trust in the end, sad but true.

When it comes to auction houses they can paint a pretty picture all they want with glowing testimonials, extensive PR and bio sections in over the top print catalogs and websites. The sad fact of the matter is these guys most likely have their books/business under the microscope less than your average plumbing contractor or accountant.

When it comes to this hobby folks, like it or not every deal and every purchase of every transaction is a gamble like it or not, if these company’s want to find a way to take advantage of you there’s really not much you can do and there’s even less protecting you from it happening.

There are a few folks around here with the Chicken Little routine that the sky is falling and everyone is out to get you and you can be had so easy etc. But these people aren’t doing anything other than trading in gossip and conspiracy theories which makes the hobby no safer. The fact of the matter is this hobby like many other collecting worlds will never be a truly safe and risk free venture or pastime. However for what its worth I do agree with Jeff and Barry that’s it messed up and shouldn’t be that way.

To me all one can really do is be smart, look for the warning signs and try to do business with people you trust and like, but above all enjoy collecting for the pure joy it can be.

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Posted By: John

Yes Barry, the last I heard it was these two guys and from what I heard you don't want to be on these guys bad sides, not if you like your shins and groin area!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Actually John, one of those brothers died a few years ago, and I think I can handle the other one without any help. But if he gives me a hard time, can I call you?

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I don't want to pay for a bunch of auditing and accounting...

I will only bid where the auction folks seem trustworthy to me. Some auction outfits are up there in the banner that I intend to avoid. They may well be ok, but I have no desire to find out.

Some of the auction folks up there seem to be great folks with whom to do business. I'm glad they're around.

In the great baseball card pie, the auction folks can help themselves to a slice of our pie, if only we're willing to get them to help us sell some cards. In their minds, they own 15% (or 30%, or 17.5%, or 12.5% or 10%) if only they can get us to sell or buy something through them. I thought I owned 100% of my cards. I was mistaken.

I look forward to bidding on one or two lots when Scott and Leon get it going. I wish them well.

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Posted By: BcD

if my neighbor owns the taco bar I go to up the street and serves me should I leave him a tip? I think King may have been thinking along those lines. just wondering if you would tip the owner!

BcD

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Posted By: Darren

The guy on the right is wearing lifts!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Lifts are a no-no. Remember what happened to Mickey!

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Heightening..............

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Posted By: Matt

Any insight as to why hidden reserves were chosen instead of just starting the auction with a higher minimum bid?

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Posted By: leon

If you read the rules you will know. We believe the best way to run a reserve auction is to let bids be given on items to get "action" on them. With 2-3 days left the reserve will be disclosed, if there is one, in the auction description. We believe it's the best way to do it. Others might disagree. At the end there is no hidden reserve and the consignor is the one who will choose if there will be a reserve.....and if their lot(s) don't meet the reserve then they will pay the BP of the reserve price that they elected to have.....so if the reserve is $10,000....and the lot only goes to $5,000 then the consignor will not lose 5k...but they will have to pay $1250 as the reserve fee...... We believe it's a win for everyone.....I know for a fact that friends have friends bid in even the biggest auctions so they won't lose a ton of money (if 2 bidders don't show up for their lot).....I hope this helps to explain our thinking...regards

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Posted By: Matt

Leon - I'm curious if the reasoning for doing it the way you guys have chosen and not simply starting the lot at the reserve price (namely to generate interest) actually will translate into higher bid totals. I know on ebay it usually has the opposite effect - reserve price lots on ebay often end lower then their counterparts with no reserve. Getting some $200 bids on a $5,000 reserve item will certainly get you bids, but how likely is it that you are attracting people who can bid $5,000 on the item that would not have done so otherwise?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't want to speak for Leon and Scott, but to their credit I think one of their goals is to try some new things that haven't been done before. Many will work, a few may not, and they will tweak it along the way.

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Posted By: leon

First of all we aren't ebay. We won't have blatant shill bidding, reprints and fakes, etc...... Secondly on ebay you know there is a reserve from day one which we believe lowers initial bidder activity....I agree with you on lower bids, on ebay, as when I see a reserve I don't bid too often. I don't know what the reserve is and I don't like shooting at an unknown. Everyone will know our reserves. We hope there won't be ANY reserves in our auctions but we also want a consignor to be able to protect themselves if they wish too. If we have a 10k lot and start it out at 8k (as the reserve) then no one might want to jump in. The auction mentality is that if there are no bids then sometimes no one wants to be first...but if there is someone bidding under you then you feel a little better that someone is bidding and the market is setting the price. We know this isn't a perfect system but we think it will be the best we know how to do. We are also very open to discussions on the topic.....regards

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Posted By: Matt

Leon - thanks for the dialog - a few follow-ups:

"First of all we aren't ebay. We won't have blatant shill bidding, reprints and fakes, etc......" I certainly hope not! I also don't think that has anything to do with reserve auctions on ebay under performing.

"Secondly on ebay you know there is a reserve from day one which we believe lowers initial bidder activity" - I just re-read your terms and did not see if the lots which have reserves will be identified as such ahead of time (outside of the revealing of the actual reserve amount with 3 days to go). If they will not be identified, I would be concerned that for the same reason you stated above for not bidding on an ebay auction with reserve, people might avoid (up until the last 3 days) any of the listings since they all might be reserved; in essence, even effecting consignors who were not interested in a reserve.

I am having this discourse only by way of suggesting an improvement to what looks like a promising endeavor. I am pretty confident that if I had something to sell that merited being sold by a major auction house, I would chose you guys.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

As you can see the reserve option is to actually make the reserve a bit more transparent, at least at the end of the auction. However, in reality it is also designed so that there won't be many if any reserves. In other words if you want to use that option you have to be prepared for the fees. I would doubt that you would see 1 out of 100 lots in any given lot with a reserve, it is going to be much more of an exception and not the norm.

Scott

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Posted By: leon

Thanks....I hope many others feel the way you do too. We think our first auction is going to be great. We have already started receiving several consignments. Thanks for the kind words and open discussion. I will speak for Scott here and say we are ALWAYS open to constructive criticism. We only want to be the best place to have your vintage sports items in auction. If we come in second then we will keep trying!!!!.....take care

ps...my analogy to ebay was only because you brought ebay up...but you're again correct in that it wasn't exactly apples to apples with what we are debating.....I embellished....