Info requested on 1890's cabinet card

[scooter729]

Hi,

I recently bought this cabinet card, picturing Bob Allen of the Boston Beaneaters. I assume it would be from 1897, as that was his only year with Boston.

My questions on it:

- Would it be common for a cabinet card of a Boston player (and a common one at that) to appear on a mount from a Minnesota photography studio? He wasn't from Minnesota or anything like that either.

- The writing which you see at the top of the card doesn't actually appear to be on the cabinet itself; it almost appears like the writing was on some original copy of the photo, which was then printed with the photo. Is that possible? I can't swear that the writing isn't on this cabinet itself as I'm not an expert on it, but my initial guess is that it isn't.

Any thoughts anyone has on this would be most appreciated - thanks!!

[scooter729]

OK, well, I guess I should have done some Google searching first. I just discovered the same card (with the same writing) but with another studio mount. The image is small and doesn't link to anything to help, but I found this interesting....

At least it confirmed for me that the writing is NOT on this card itself.

Now, anyone with any more info?

[rhettyeakley]

Looks like a badly made reproduction of an original Elmer Chickering cabinet known from the Library of Congress collection. The writing was fountain pen on the original cabinet which on subsequent copies would "appear" to be part of the image.

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collecti...em/2008678935/

Pretty easy to "make" these by taking a reproduction image of the player photo and pasting them on an original cabinet mount.

Just as an FYI very rarely are you going to find a Boston National League (for example) players cabinet card like this on a non-Boston photographers mount. The exceptions would be from a city of an opposing team (the Boston team was in New York so they got their photos there) or sometimes a player being photographed at a studio near where they lived but the cities on those two Allen mounts make no sense and are 100% fakes. Usually the city the photographer was in makes sense with the given subject matter.

[scooter729]

Thanks Rhett - that is great info! The LOC image clinches it for sure. I thought something seemed up with this but couldn't quite put my finger on it, so your comments were extremely helpful so I can avoid being stuck with this copy.

Much appreciated!

[GregMitch34]

Not sure if relevant but I recently picked up this Cabinet of Boston Beaneater, Tom Gunning. In this case, it's a Boston studio--they have it labeled circa 1888 but must be earlier as he only played in Boston 1882-1886. I see no record of existence of any other example of this cabinet--or the photo studio. Would seem odd that no other Beaneater had it done there? Or did players just do it on their own and this could even be old Tom's only copy? Interesting to speculate...
http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1387511386

[spec]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Not sure if relevant but I recently picked up this Cabinet of Boston Beaneater, Tom Gunning. In this case, it's a Boston studio--they have it labeled circa 1888 but must be earlier as he only played in Boston 1882-1886. I see no record of existence of any other example of this cabinet--or the photo studio. Would seem odd that no other Beaneater had it done there? Or did players just do it on their own and this could even be old Tom's only copy? Interesting to speculate...
http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1387511386

Greg,
Over many years of baseball research in Boston, I never encountered anything indicating this studio photographed baseball players. In this period, Hastings, Waldon Smith, Conly and Gray were often mentioned in connection with the teams. However, there were many photographers in Boston and I suspect Gunning chose Pepper for this personal portrait. If you Google A.F. Pepper, you will find other cabinet photos with his imprint. As for the time frame, Gunning was from the Boston area (born in Newmarket, NH; attended Boston College and Holy Cross in Worcester, and after completing med school at the University of Pennsylvania practice for many years in nearby Fall River, MA. Thus, he might have had this photo taken by Pepper any time between 1880 and 1900. Nonetheless, it was a nice pickup. How did you happen to spot it and make the connection to baseball?
Bo.b Rich.ardson

[GregMitch34]

Thanks for that info on Gunning. Very interesting. Not sure how or why SGC labeled it "circa 1888." His baseball career ended around then so maybe they took that as a safe point. The front and back are very clean except for faint handwritten "Tom Gunning" on reverse, which could has been done back then or later. I spotted it just searching for SGC things closing on a certain day and there it was.

[drcy]

My off hand guess is the first is a fake, in part as I've seen reprints of that same image.

Though it isn't impossible for a player to be photographed in another city, in particular if it's a city in the same league. A city's photographer was sometimes responsible for photographing players in the entire league, photographing visitors as the came through. Red Wing is a bit obscure-- though I've been there! Home of Red Wing Shoes. For a legitimate photo, big city Minneapolis or St. Paul would make more sense.

Examine the player image with a very strong magnifying glass. If you see multi color dots, it's a reprint. The cardboard mount itself could be antique.

[joetinkerfan]

Could the same be said for this picture as well, that it is a fake? Also from a Red Wing Studio, but with a very well known Kelly pose.




http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1387639453

[John V]

I was wondering the same. Last time I looked it had over 40 watchers per WatchCount and the price keeps climbing.

[Runscott]

Fake as well.

The back of the first repro says 'Duplicate can be had at any time'. So there you have it - 2013 duplicate.

[scooter729]

The Kelly sold for $1425 so hopefully the buyer doesn't get stuck with a fake at that price. I notified the seller of why the Allen I bought was a reproduction and even pointed him to this thread and told him the Kelly is likely in the same boat.

He is planning on refunding my money on the Allen, but I never heard back from him about the Kelly.

Originally Posted by joetinkerfan

Could the same be said for this picture as well, that it is a fake? Also from a Red Wing Studio, but with a very well known Kelly pose.




http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1387639453

[3-2-count]

I'm just seeing this thread. I actually emailed the seller prior to his auction ending informing him that this cabinet was more than likely a re-production. Even sent him pics of similar fakes with this same image. He never replied and let the auction run. I hope you get resolution to this, but I have my doubts due to his non responsiveness.

[wolterse]

I was considering a bid until I read this thread a couple days ago, thank you for the great work done on this site.

Originally Posted by joetinkerfan

Could the same be said for this picture as well, that it is a fake? Also from a Red Wing Studio, but with a very well known Kelly pose.




http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1387639453

[scooter729]

Thanks again for the great advice here - I was able to get my money refunded for the Allen cabinet! As Erich said above, the knowledge of this community and willingness to help each other is incredible!

[Runscott]

Scott, I would have loved to have seen a huge scan of a few areas of the image - it would be good to show other forum members what to look for under a loop. Maybe you can get the seller to forward some extreme close-ups to you (haha).

[Leon]

I had seen this on ebay too and just figured it was a reprint....nice work guys.

[WillowGrove]

I contacted the seller during the auction and told him I thought it was a fake and he responded twice to my responses with seemingly caring emails but obviously to no avail since he let the card sell.

So sad that this seller had multiple people alert him and also got sent a link to this thread and he/she still chose to avoid the truth and make a buck.

Btw, I told him to look at the photo through a loop for dots as if it were a print and not a real photo.... is that the best test?

Thanks.

And too bad.

[scooter729]

No feedback has been left on the Kelly cabinet transaction - I have checked a couple of times to see if anything is left on that.

It would be interesting if we see who the buyer is, to see if anyone can contact them to let them know our hunches about the Kelly.