T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

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350/460 series subjects


The POLAR BEAR tobacco brand was produced in Middletown, Ohio. See Factory #6 in post #5, courtesy of Craig Wright.... POLAR BEAR factory..Middletown, Ohio
The POLAR BEAR cards were printed at American Litho in NYC, and shipped to the Middletown plant to be inserted in POLAR BEAR tobacco packs.

The cards of Demmitt and O'Hara provide us an insight into the timeline when the POLAR BEAR (PB) cards where initially introduced. The New York versions of Demmitt
and O'Hara are 350-only series subjects, which were printed prior to the POLAR BEAR press runs. Demmitt and O'Hara were traded during the off-season. Both started
the 1910 season with their respective St Louis teams. By May 1910, both of them were re-assigned to the Eastern League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to Toronto.

The St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara are printed ONLY with the POLAR BEAR back. Therefore, it's fair to conclude that the 1st press runs of PB cards occurred
during the Summer of 1910.





Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards



There has been some debate as to which series these St Louis variations were printed in ? One school of thought says the Demmitt and O'Hara were included in the 1st
press runs when the 350-only series cards were printed. Another school of thought says that they were printed along during the 2nd press runs with the 350/460 cards.

Apparently, American Litho started their 1st press run of the PB cards circa Summer of 1910. ALC printed the PB backs on 138 subjects of the 350-only series.

The 2nd press run (circa Summer/Fall of 1910) was a major one. ALC printed PB backs on the 60 subjects from the 350/460 Series. It's my contention, that ALC printed
the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations in this PB press run.

Furthermore, these PB press runs of 60 subjects (or 66 subjects, if we include the 6 super-prints) were printed in greater quantities than the 350-only series printing of
PB cards. Proof of this theory is evident in T206 surveys, POP report data, and everyday Ebay listings of PB cards.

Finally, I would estimate that there are at approx. 300 cards each of the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations currently in circulation. What is your guesstimate ?

OK, having said all this, I'm open to hearing your ideas on this subject ?


To date, my checklist indicates 250 subjects have been confirmed with the POLAR BEAR backs.
The following lists these cards according to their respective T206 series.

350-only Series..................138 subjects

Abbott
Adkins
Anderson
Arellanes
Armbruster
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Barry (A's)
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Beck
Beckley
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell

Burke
Bush
Carr
Carrigan
Casey
Chappelle
Clancy
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Milwaukee)
Congalton
Cravath
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dessau
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Dygert
Easterly

Egan
Engle
Evans
Ferguson
Fiene (portrait)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Grimshaw
Groom
Hallman
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)

Hofman
Howard (Chicago)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)
Kroh
Kruger
LaPorte
Lattimore
Lavender
Livingstone
Lord
Maddox

Maloney
Mattern
McGann
McGinnity
McGlynn
McLean
Merritt
Milan
Milligan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago)
Moriarty
Mullen (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Nattress
Oakes
O'Brien
O'Neill
Perring

Pfeister (seated)
Phelps
Phillippe
Pickering
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Raymond
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schlafly
Schreck
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe

Shaw (Providence)
Slagle
Smith (Chicago, white cap)
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Stanage
Strang
Jessie Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thielman
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wright
Irv Young


350/460 series...................58 subjects [plus Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations]

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Harry Davis (A's)
Demmitt (St Louis American)..........included in this print run
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)

Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Hara (St Louis Nat'l)....................included in this print run
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)

Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)


460-only Series..................46 subjects

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand at waist}

Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)

H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Six Super-Prints

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Ted, I disagree with classifying Demmitt and O'Hara as 350/460 series
they're 350 only subjects.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The cards of Demmitt and O'Hara provide us an insight into the timeline when the POLAR BEAR (PB) cards where initially introduced. The New York versions of Demmitt
and O'Hara are 350-only series subjects, which were printed prior to the POLAR BEAR press runs. Demmitt and O'Hara were traded in the off-season. Both started
the 1910 season with their respective St Louis teams. By May 1910, both of them were re-assigned to the Eastern League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to Toronto.

TED Z

Pat

I have very clearly stated that the Demmitt and O'Hara (New York variations) are 350-only subjects. And, I'm NOT "classifying" the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations
as "350/460 series subjects". I am simply proposing that (with respect to the POLAR BEAR runs) they were printed on the same sheet as the 350/460 series subjects.


My research indicates that the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations could NOT have been printed in the 1st press run of the POLAR BEAR cards with the 350-only subjects.
Several surveys have confirmed this fact, because the quantities of POLAR BEAR cards in this press run are relatively low. Whereas, the subsequent press runs of 350/460 sub-
jects were printed with much greater quantities of POLAR BEAR backs. Quantities which are consistent with the numbers of known Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) cards.
Therefore, with respect to the POLAR BEAR population, the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations timeline is very likely circa..Summer/Fall 1910.

I have qualified my 350/460 series Checklist, which I've included the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations, to note that these 2 subjects were also printed with this group.


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

Interesting theory on the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations. I agree that the population numbers are more in line with the 350/460 print group. The sad reality is it makes these two key cards which many consider their base set complete at 518 cards without them, the two most common Polar Bear cards out of the 250 different Polar Bears issued.

I'm currently working on a Polar Bear Back subset. I have about 20 to go. I recommend this subset to others. It is a challenge to put together but not impossible. There really isn't any one card difficult (I don't count Dopner in the set) but the difficulty does follow the print groups. During my journey I can say that Print Group 460 is most difficult and Print Group 350 is a bit more easy. Print Group 350/460 cards are almost always available. Polar Bears are condition rare so for a real challenge, a PSA 4/SGC 50 or higher set would keep you busy. One last thing about the Polar Bear subset is once your done, your nearly 50 percent complete of a 524 card T206 set.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *



. .
350/460 series subjects



Hi Ron

I'm impressed, 230 - POLAR BEAR's....that's quite an achievement.


I will tell you of the other factor (besides the large population of the 350/460 series POLAR BEAR cards) that led me to thinking that American Litho
must of printed Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis variations) in the 350/460 press run.

Check-out my concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement ** of the Sovereign 66 subjects which I like to refer to as the "phantom 350/460 series".

Consider this: Joe Doyle and Bob Rhoades had retired prior to this POLAR BEAR press run. So, those 2 guys are removed and replaced by Demmitt
and O'Hara (St Louis) cards. I say it may have been as simple as that.

As Mel Allen (great ole sportscaster) would say "How's about that ?



v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v .................................................v Joe Doyle v (2nd row down)






.................................................. .................................................. ^ Rhoades ^ (above Wilhelm)



** Note I have shown the 6 super-prints Double-Printed on this arrangement because several large surveys have indicated as such.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Ted, In my opinion the Demmitt and O'Hara populations are in line with
many of the 350 series commons.

The majority of the Demmitt and O'Hara's would be graded even in lower grades because of their value while most of the lower grade PB commons wouldn't.

There are 111 Demmitts and 101 O'Hara's in the PSA pop reports. There are several 350 series PB commons
in the 25-30 pop report range with Fred Beck having the most at 37.
On ebay there are four becks and three of the four are ungraded, while
you seldom see an ungraded Demmitt or O'Hara's for sale.

Of the 111 Demmitt's 37 are lower than a two (1 out of 3) and 29 out of the 101 O'Hara's ( 1 out of 3.4) are below a 2.
Only 3 of the 37 (1 out of 12+) of the becks are lower than a 2.

[tedzan]

Pat

With all due respect....where are you getting your numbers ?

There is absolutely no comparison with 350-only series PB pop #'s vs 350/460 series PB pop #'s.
For example......

DEMMITT.....230 (approx.)

O'HARA........255 (approx.)

350/460 series

COBB red.....232

COBB bat.....141


350-only series

Speaker.........78

Beckley..........54

Bresnahan......51

McGinnity.......46


Furthermore, information from Scot's 100,000+ survey support what I have stated regarding
the differences in printing quantities of PB cards vs 350-only, 350/360. and 460-only series.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

With all due respect....where are you getting your numbers ?

There is absolutely no comparison with 350-only series PB pop #'s vs 350/460 series PB pop #'s.
For example......

DEMMITT.....230 (approx.)

O'HARA........255 (approx.)

350/460 series

COBB red.....232

COBB bat.....141


350-only series

Speaker.........78

Beckley..........54

Bresnahan......51

McGinnity.......46


Furthermore, information from Scot's 100,000+ survey support what I have stated regarding
the differences in printing quantities of PB cards vs 350-only, 350/360. and 460-only series.


TED Z
.

Ted, I agree that the pop #'s are definitely higher in the 350/460 series
compared to the 350 series Polar Bears.

The numbers I provided were from the PSA Polar Bear pop reports comparing the Demmitt and O'Hara to Fred Beck who is also from the 350 series,

Here are the combined PSA and SGC #'s

Demmitt 231 total with 93 lower than a grade of 2 (A , 1 or 1.5) = 1 out of 2.4 below a 2

O'Hara 217 total 80 below a 2 = 1 out of 2.7 below a 2

Beck 56 total 7 below a 2 = 1 out of 8 below a 2

To me this is in line with what I would expect considering how many Demmitt
and O'Hara's would be graded compared to Beck.

Wouldn't you agree that Demmitt and O'Hara would be 3 or 4 times more
likely to be graded than a Fred Beck Polar Bear?

[Ronnie73]

I figured that I would post population totals of Polar Bears for HOF's graded by PSA and SGC combined, broken down in print groups. Now I already know that these are just numbers and who knows what has been broken out and re-graded, or what backs are on the graded cards before PSA cared to identify them, or that quantities of cards are not counted from SGC because it was before they were keeping track of player pose. The purpose of this is to show a current average of cards across the print groups at this time.

I chose HOF's because they are more likely to be graded than a common player.

PRINT GROUP 2 (350 SERIES)
BECKLEY - 55
BRESNAHAN - BATTING - 49
COLLINS, JIMMY - 58
KELLEY - 60
MCGINNITY - 47
SPEAKER - 69

PRINT GROUP 3 (350-460 SERIES)
BAKER - 133
BENDER - NO TREES - 87
BROWN - CHICAGO ON SHIRT - 141
COBB - BAT OFF - 141
CRAWFORD - WITH BAT - 81
GRIFFITH - BATTING - 108
JENNINGS - ONE HAND - 92
JENNINGS - TWO HANDS - 50
JOHNSON - GLOVE AT CHEST - 155
JOSS - HANDS AT CHEST - 170
LAJOIE - WITH BAT - 125
TINKER - BAT OFF - 67
WILLIS - BATTING - 61
WILLIS - THROWING - 97
YOUNG - WITH GLOVE - 149

PRINT GROUP 4 (460 SERIES)
CHANCE - BATTING - 24
DUFFY - 38
MARQUARD - PITCHING - 78
MCGRAW - GLOVE AT HIP - 37
MCGRAW - PORTRAIT WIT CAP - 34
TINKER - BAT ON - 29
WHEAT - 39

PRINT GROUP 5 (SUPER PRINTS)
CHANCE - YELLOW PORTRAIT - 155
COBB - RED PORTRAIT - 272
EVERS - CHICAGO ON SHIRT - 132
MATHEWSON - DARK CAP - 188