What the hell is the deal with this PWCC auction

[CrackaJackKid]

They can't block the highest bidder, he's probably the only authentic bidder in the whole auction. 😊 Brent and Betsy need to go find a real job. And yes, I am the type of person that will say this to your face. Can't wait for Nationals

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You meant "inherent" damage not "inheritant" damage but for PWCC to be explaining the harm of bid retractions to someone, in light of its track record of a slow and reluctant and excuse-laden response to the issue and even now blatantly admitting to making exceptions to its own supposed policy for people who spend a lot of money, is IMO unbelievably hypocritical. It seems you folks will say anything.

Fraud occurs daily in their auctions and they've been caught in multiple lies on this board -- and have admitted to past fraud in their auctions. I think it's fair to conclude that Brent and Betsy are part of the problem and not part of the solution to eBay fraud.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Fraud occurs daily in their auctions and they've been caught in multiple lies on this board -- and have admitted to past fraud in their auctions. I think it's fair to conclude that Brent and Betsy are part of the problem and not part of the solution to eBay fraud.

It is also my opinion they are part of the problem.

Originally Posted by bigfish

PWCC continues to justify their stance and then plays the victim. You guys are a hoot.

The real hoot is reading the responses of the people that support them.

[Exhibitman]

Inspector Renault: I am shocked to find gambling here.
Croupier: Your winnings sir.
Renault: Thank you very much.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

This is an extremely frustrating situation for us. We have been in communication with both bidders who retracted bids on this listing. The original high bidder (the first bidder to retract) clearly retracted in violation of eBay and PWCC policy. Following our communication that bidder cancelled yet another bid and is now permanently blocked from participating in future auctions. The other bidder (the current high bidder) became frustrated by the first retraction and understandably questioned the legitimacy of the auction. He/she then retracted again to change his/her max bid given the fact that it had been revealed by the original retraction. He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months, and has every intention to proceed with the purchase should he/she win the card.

We have emphasized this very case with eBay Trust & Safety as a textbook example of the problems that bid retractions cause to the auction environment.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions

Congratulations! Y'all are almost taking a stand...kind of sort of...

'Drawing a line in the sand doesn't do much good when a lot of hot air is blowing.'

[irv]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Inspector Renault: I am shocked to find gambling here.
Croupier: Your winnings sir.
Renault: Thank you very much.

LOL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Inspector Renault: I am shocked to find gambling here.
Croupier: Your winnings sir.
Renault: Thank you very much.

bahahahaha

[jfkheat]

.

[Dpeck100]

There is nothing wrong with wanting a clean market place but the constant PWCC bashing doesn't seem to be doing them any harm. They have 6,708 current listings as I type this.

The fact that there is a seller that has been able to bring marque cards on a consistent basis to EBAY buyers is just awesome.

Who else has auctioned off cards that have gone for 500k? No one.

I personally have won some great cards in their auctions and I knew if they were coming to market they were most likely being auctioned off through PWCC.

Their shipping is stellar and while I read comments from many that shipping with nice packaging doesn't matter; I couldn't disagree more. Every package comes extremely well packaged and if you compare it to Probstein's it isn't even close. So much better.

The leader is always going to have haters and there is a plethora of those in their case. With card prices attracting bigger dollars and running $0.99 auctions it obviously invites funny games. There is no chance they can regulate all of their auctions. It is encouraging that a seller who clearly benefits from higher prices is doing anything to regulate the wild west known as the card market.

You may not like their operation but the fact that PWCC exists has done wonders for the card market.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The leader is always going to have hatters and there is a plethora of those in their case. With card prices attracting bigger dollars and running $0.99 auctions it obviously invites funny games. There is no chance they can regulate all of their auctions. It is encouraging that a seller who clearly benefits from higher prices is doing anything to regulate the wild west known as the card market.

You may not like their operation but the fact that PWCC exists has done wonders for the card market.

I am not a 'hatter', David; no malice when I say that I am disgusted by the PWCC business model. It is not asking the impossible to simply ban bid retractors from the auctions. Easily done, but not done, because it financially benefits the owners.

This isn't helping the market any more than any other manipulation helps any other market. They are providing a known vehicle for fraudulent activities. In the long term it is harmful to the collecting community and wrong. It isn't helping the market any more than Mastro's shilling helped the market. When the music stops a lot of people are going to end up burnt and they will leave collecting for something else.

I and many other collectors I know won't bid with them as we would with other sellers because of how they allow consignors to act. Perhaps that will be the ultimate mechanism to force PWCC to take action.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I am not a 'hatter', David; no malice when I say that I am disgusted by the PWCC business model. It is not asking the impossible to simply ban bid retractors from the auctions. Easily done, but not done, because it financially benefits the owners.

This isn't helping the market any more than any other manipulation helps any other market. They are providing a known vehicle for fraudulent activities. In the long term it is harmful to the collecting community and wrong. It isn't helping the market any more than Mastro's shilling helped the market. When the music stops a lot of people are going to end up burnt and they will leave collecting for something else.

I and many other collectors I know won't bid with them as we would with other sellers because of how they allow consignors to act. Perhaps that will be the ultimate mechanism to force PWCC to take action.

It is EBAY's marketplace. They must be the one's to take the lead to stop the retractions. Pull up dpeck100 on EBAY. None. Ever. And I have had the same person who pulled their bid run the auction back up and I just held my ground. If I bid, I am the one that pulled the trigger and it's that simple.

Liquidity has created additional interest in cards and by auctioning off thousands of cards per month it is doing just that.

I too disagree with bid retractions but it is unrealistic to expect a seller to adopt a policy that has a zero tolerance policy when EBAY couldn't care less.

You need turnover to create recorded sales for people to try and base their value estimates on and they are by far the leader in this on EBAY when it comes to trading cards.

I will take the good they provide over the bad. All day.

[Dpeck100]

I am curious what the estimates were and are on this card.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1914-Cracker...3D142396409793


I bet there will be plenty of people when this card goes off that would have had snipes that are much lower then the final price and didn't even go off.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Stuff trumps ethics. Well, it's one perspective.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Stuff trumps ethics. Well, it's one perspective.

Peter I get the feeling after your three month effort to sell a card on the boxing and wrestling forum you could benefit from their services. There are plenty of collectors who just pack up their stuff and send it off to consignment sellers and let the chips fall where they may. The audience they attract does help prices in general and that card might actually catch a bid out on the open market.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Um... why do people put max bids on ebay instead of sniping? Ever? This practice continues to amaze me. Bid retractions done to out your high bid = another reason why sniping is the only way to fly.

+ I can't understand it either. Shillers and bid sniffers love early bidders that leave their bid on the internet cloud for them to simply feast on. Can you imagine the crap that is going down at the AH's. We're only seeing a small fraction on ebay.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Stuff trumps ethics. Well, it's one perspective.

This is why our hobby is filled with so many crooks, no one cares as long as they can get their card, autograph, or piece of memorabilia. The even better part is the card is probably altered, the autograph is not real, and the memorabilia is so fake any rational person is like are you serious you think that ball that looks like my dog played with it is from a game Babe Ruth played in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Peter I get the feeling after your three month effort to sell a card on the boxing and wrestling forum you could benefit from their services. There are plenty of collectors who just pack up their stuff and send it off to consignment sellers and let the chips fall where they may. The audience they attract does help prices in general and that card might actually catch a bid out on the open market.

David I just thanked you for your "advice" on that BST thread. Much appreciated.

I don't dispute that they have great stuff and frequently get great prices. And I'll take your word for it on the packaging. But to me that's really beside the point of the thread.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by interpret

There is nothing wrong with wanting a clean market place but the constant PWCC bashing doesn't seem to be doing them any harm. They have 6,708 current listings as I type this.

The fact that there is a seller that has been able to bring marque cards on a consistent basis to EBAY buyers is just awesome.

Who else has auctioned off cards that have gone for 500k? No one.

I personally have won some great cards in their auctions and I knew if they were coming to market they were most likely being auctioned off through PWCC.

Their shipping is stellar and while I read comments from many that shipping with nice packaging doesn't matter; I couldn't disagree more. Every package comes extremely well packaged and if you compare it to Probstein's it isn't even close. So much better.

The leader is always going to have hatters and there is a plethora of those in their case. With card prices attracting bigger dollars and running $0.99 auctions it obviously invites funny games. There is no chance they can regulate all of their auctions. It is encouraging that a seller who clearly benefits from higher prices is doing anything to regulate the wild west known as the card market.

You may not like their operation but the fact that PWCC exists has done wonders for the card market.

++ Most of the PWCC haters are getting blown by the AH's. They're certainly not perfect, but their the best of the worst. Take all the PWCC bashing energy and get the AH's to show the bidders, allow us to snipe, and end the auctions one time. Short of that, I'll interpret your PWCC bashing as jealousy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

This is why our hobby is filled with so many crooks, no one cares as long as they can get their card, autograph, or piece of memorabilia. The even better part is the card is probably altered, the autograph is not real, and the memorabilia is so fake any rational person is like are you serious you think that ball that looks like my dog played with it is from a game Babe Ruth played in.

Yep. Crooks thrive because otherwise intelligent people just turn a blind eye. A card doctor to the stars said it best -- I'm giving guys what they want.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David I just thanked you for your "advice" on that BST thread. Much appreciated.

I don't doubt that they have great stuff and frequently get great prices. But to me that's really beside the point of the thread.

The card in question is a Pop 1 from the 1965 Topps set and just happens to be a Triple Crown Winner with 586 career home runs.

https://www.psacard.com/psasetregist...opps-basic/752

There are some serious players collecting this set. Think about how much cash it takes to put together a complete mint set. Take a look at the top set and how impressive that GPA is and the total domination since 2007. They obviously don't own the card. No one does.

Who are you or me to even remotely determine what this card should sell for. For all we know the $50,000 high bid that was placed might be within reason for what collectors who want to own this card feel is a market clearing price.

At the end of the day at least the card came to market and more than one person got a shot at it and kudos to PWCC for getting to sell it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If someone wants to buy an arbitrary 10 flip so be it. I would bet anything that raw or with the flip hidden you couldn't pick it out in a group of 9s. I started the thread because of the four retractions two of which were by a bidder with 14 retractions (the other only had 9 LOL), not the price.

[Jeffrompa]

There is not enough bidders on eBay to block the bad ones .

[ruth-gehrig]

"Cut small from the factory"? Now why didn't Mastro think of that explanation?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/401335770873...84.m1436.l2649

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If someone wants to buy an arbitrary 10 flip so be it. I would bet anything that raw or with the flip hidden you couldn't pick it out in a group of 9s. I started the thread because of the four retractions two of which were by a bidder with 14 retractions (the other only had 9 LOL), not the price.

I have one EBAY ID. I would imagine you do too. There are plenty who don't. The two bidders might have several other ID's for all we know and will bid under another name anyway.


You guys are expecting perfection and it is never coming.


Get mad at EBAY and write their CEO everyday. Until they change their policy the bid retractions aren't going away. As I said the fact that PWCC is even trying is great for collectors and overtime there will be progress.


Until then they will continue to offer the best cards on EBAY month after month.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David, I don't disagree that ebay condones a great deal of fraud and BS, but again I think you're deflecting attention from the immediate issue which is PWCC's failure to enforce its own stated policy about which it made such a big deal.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David, I don't disagree that ebay condones a great deal of fraud and BS, but again I think you're deflecting attention from the immediate issue which is PWCC's failure to enforce its own "policy."

There are grey areas within many policies. I have never retracted a bid but I have been involved in a few and it might be four to six bids that are retracted from one auction. Maybe they take other issues into account when holding a hard line. Honestly if I was a seller and someone had spent 60k with me and as pointed out probably has sold cards too, I would cut them some slack in some cases. Maybe this is one of them.

Everyone thinks they are a sleuth, myself included and many times we simply get it wrong. Just looking at bids and percentages and so on doesn't always tell the entire story.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

There are grey areas within many policies. I have never retracted a bid but I have been involved in a few and it might be four to six bids that are retracted from one auction. Maybe they take other issues into account when holding a hard line. Honestly if I was a seller and someone had spent 60k with me and as pointed out probably has sold cards too, I would cut them some slack in some cases. Maybe this is one of them.

Everyone thinks they are a sleuth, myself included and many times we simply get it wrong. Just looking at bids and percentages and so on doesn't always tell the entire story.

Fine, but then don't (PWCC, not you) come on here with all these sanctimonious posts about your policies and supposed anti-fraud efforts. If you are going to talk a big game, then live up to it.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fine, but then don't (PWCC, not you) come on here with all these sanctimonious posts about your policies and supposed anti-fraud efforts. If you are going to talk a big game, then live up to it.

If I were their PR firm I would do what Rick Probstein did and stop posting all together. Every time they post their haters aren't satisfied with the answer and in some cases they have made the perception even worse.

Personally I like the transparency of them attempting to respond but in many cases in life just telling your side of the story gets you no where.

One of the tough parts about Internet communication is there are a lot of tough guys behind a keyboard. Just look at any news story that hits a social media site.

With so many harsh critics they will never win the debate so don't even have one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Their critics arent satisfied because their answers arent satisfactory much of the time. And i am not hiding behind a keyboard i have had much personal communication with brent and he knows my views on things.

[tothrk]

I have a policy of never bidding in a PWCC auction but considering the shipping is only $30 for this card, I might make a run at it. Also, I'd love to know the history of this card.

[drmondobueno]

but only after my next consignment sells

-Drmondobueno, after 4 Guinness, a visit to the local priest, and a load of truth serum

[ruth-gehrig]

Is Betsy the Press Secretary for Brent?

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

As I said the fact that PWCC is even trying is great for collectors and overtime there will be progress.

How many bidders have been banned since PWCC went live with their new bid retraction policy?

[toledo_mudhen]

Wow - Tough crowd here. A quick check shows PWCC with close to 6,000 auctions going on right now. Probably a bit much to police everyone of them. You guys outted this one and Brent responded. No one is forcing you to bid on his auctions.

[bxb]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

Wow - Tough crowd here. A quick check shows PWCC with close to 6,000 auctions going on right now. Probably a bit much to police everyone of them. You guys outted this one and Brent responded. No one is forcing you to bid on his auctions.

Based on the number of PWCC bidders vs the number of critics on this thread, the latter is small (but vocal) potatoes.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

How many bidders have been banned since PWCC went live with their new bid retraction policy?

I don't know you tell me.

I haven't seen them release a number and I see so no reason to. The haters who would care to see a number produced wouldn't believe it anyway so there is nothing to gain for them.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Man, those must be some mad hatters...

[Bigshot69]

Do you think this is causing the hat industry to suffer in the near term?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I don't know you tell me.

I haven't seen them release a number and I see so no reason to. The hatters who would care to see a number produced wouldn't believe it anyway so there is nothing to gain for them.

Why would anyone believe the # if the released it. They come on here and lie about #'s almost every time they post.

I am with you on the they need to just STFU and quit posting their lies over and over. The being quiet works or at least causes way less people to point out your constant lies.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Bigshot69

Do you think this is causing the hat industry to suffer in the near term?

I think it is more long term. I also think it is a benefit because lies like steroids make your head swell up. Once that happens you will need a new hat.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

Wow - Tough crowd here. A quick check shows PWCC with close to 6,000 auctions going on right now. Probably a bit much to police everyone of them. You guys outted this one and Brent responded. No one is forcing you to bid on his auctions.

This is their highest or second highest dollar auction. And they claimed to have a full time hire weeding out fraud. Straw man argument imo.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Man, those must be some mad hatters...

No spelling bee champ here. Haha

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

No spelling bee champ here. Haha

Nor any literary geniuses!

Edited..Nor

[Marchillo]

Hope I don't spell anything wrong!

I'm going to compare this situation to the NFL and Ray Rice and it makes sense in my head so hopefully it makes sense when I type it.

In this example PWCC is the NFL - the all powerful, money generating machine, that can't seem to fail no matter what they do. They know they deliver a superior product and people will continue to pay for it.

So in the Ray Rice case the NFL hands down a 2 game suspension. I personally believe the commissioner (Brent) saw the video prior to handing down the suspension but didn't think it would come out. The NFL only changed the penalty when the video came out TMZ Sports (net54baseball) and Rice hasn't played in a game since. Partly due to the NFL full season suspension and then teams not wanting to deal with the PR nightmare.

But on the flip side how many days was Rice sentenced to serve in jail by the justice system (EBay)? None. So the penalty Rice served was put forth by the NFL (PWCC). Does PWCC have more of a responsibility than EBay? Obviously if they have a hand in hiring bidders or shilling bids then that is a problem. But if there are people doing nefarious (i googled the spelling) things and EBay allows it than what is PWCC's responsibility?

I agree with the OP on this thread and its the issue I have with the NFL (Though I am a Patriots season ticket holder 5x Champs don't hate!). It's not that they let some of these wife beaters, bad guys play in the league, its the holier than thou rhetoric they feed to everyone and think we are a bunch of morons.

At the end of the day the NFL isn't going anywhere, although viewership was down last year. But all these little things do cost them over time. I think it is short sighted by PWCC to allow this person to bid despite the $60K he/she has spent over the past few months. If that person didn't win those items than what do those items go for? Lets say $50K? And what is PWCC's take on $10k less? At the end of the day its a drop in the bucket for them at the same time turning other buyers off from bidding on their items. I for one will be very cautious if not avoid their auctions altogether after reading some of the threads on here. These things add up. And that shortsighted commission from this bidder will probably cost them more money at the end of the day. And at this point they have to know they have a bunch of watchdogs keeping track of their auctions.

OK sorry for the NFL analogy!

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Why would anyone believe the # if the released it. They come on here and lie about #'s almost every time they post.

I am with you on the they need to just STFU and quit posting their lies over and over. The being quiet works or at least causes way less people to point out your constant lies.

Not like there are any savvy people on here, or anywhere else, who are bidding on their auctions. If there was a card of interest, time has proven even with a bad rep, people will still bid, albeit through a snipe.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Anyone else read the title of the thread in Jerry Seinfeld's voice? If you haven't you will now. You're welcome...

[bobbyw8469]

PWCC isn't going anywhere. Do you see how big they have blown up over just the past 5 years. Before, I could actually reach Brent on the phone. Now, I would have better luck getting hold of the president. They have started doing things that are trend setting for an Ebay auction seller. When I say a card is high end for the grade, I might get a few dollars more. Not much. If PWCC says a card is high end, it gets double or triple the going rate. They are getting the bids and the commissions to go along with them. There almost seems to be a need for a few other major players in the consignment shop other than Probstein and PWCC.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

PWCC isn't going anywhere. Do you see how big they have blown up over just the past 5 years. Before, I could actually reach Brent on the phone. Now, I would have better luck getting hold of the president. They have started doing things that are trend setting for an Ebay auction seller. When I say a card is high end for the grade, I might get a few dollars more. Not much. If PWCC says a card is high end, it gets double or triple the going rate. They are getting the bids and the commissions to go along with them. There almost seems to be a need for a few other major players in the consignment shop other than Probstein and PWCC.

oh yes...this hobby definitely needs more unscrupulous characters...pls send more!

[SAllen2556]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

If I were their PR firm I would do what Rick Probstein did and stop posting all together. Every time they post their haters aren't satisfied with the answer and in some cases they have made the perception even worse.

Personally I like the transparency of them attempting to respond but in many cases in life just telling your side of the story gets you no where.

One of the tough parts about Internet communication is there are a lot of tough guys behind a keyboard. Just look at any news story that hits a social media site.

With so many harsh critics they will never win the debate so don't even have one.

C'mon now. That's naive. Look at it from a business standpoint. What was their motivation to institute, and more importantly, publicly state their stance against bid retractions? Because they determined that in the long run it would help their business, and profits. Fine.

But why go public with the policy at all? If you run your business with integrity you don't need to shout about it. Just do it. People will figure it out on their own. They went public because they thought it was in the best interest of their bottom line. And at this point, it seems to have backfired.

But remember, PWCC is the one who took to the internet and shouted, "We're the ones you can trust." Well, if you're going to go public about it and use it to market your company, you can't complain when people call you on it, can you?

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

oh yes...this hobby definitely needs more unscrupulous characters...pls send more!

I didn't mean it like that. You are taking what I am saying out of context.