Ted Z.: Drum Find Request

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Hi Ted,

I didn't want to hijack your Philly Show thread.

Can I trouble you to post a list of the 41 T206 Drums in the Legendary find?

Also, as I understand the cards were with the same family for generations (and perhaps were even pulled from Drum packs by the grandfather of the consigner), can you share anything about the origin of these cards?

Thanks my friend.

Scot

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Posted By: Scott Levy

Scott,

I saw the grouping in person and it was one of the most remarkable hobby related things that I've ever seen. Even more astonishing to me than the 41 T206s was a group of 8 T205 drums ---- WOW !!!!

Regards,
Scott

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Posted By: Anonymous

Scott,

Sounds incredible.

I am excited for the auction (almost certainly as a mere spectator).

Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I just got in from the Valley Forge show, and saw your request. I have to unload all my junk to find the list
of Subjects in these two groups.

I should get around to posting this data tomorrow. I have been under the weather these past few days and
I am very tired.

No problem on the "hijacking". As far as I'm concerned, the show was very disappointing. It certainly proved
the age old adage......

"Don't tamper with success".


TED Z

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

Thanks for your response.

The Drums alone would have made the show worth it from my perspective!

Scot

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Posted By: Marc S.

with a few finds of Drum T206 cards in the past few years, that Uzit may now be rarer than Drum?

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Posted By: Scott Levy

Marc,

Anything is possible but.....

It's easy to see a new cache of cards and think that a hobby shift is at hand. We shouldn't forget about the several very large Uzit finds many years ago in this hobby in addition to it significantly greater existing frequency. IMO it would take a truly huge find (250+) additional drums to make it as common (I should say as less rare) as Uzits are.

Another factor to keep in mind is condition.....the Hunt cache were ALL trimmed and even this grouping while unaltered would likely average as between '2' to '3'. Comparing the upper end of the spectrum -- e.g. '4' or above Drum is probably one of the very toughest back possible.

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Posted By: Tim

I agree with Scott that even given this large find of Drum backs I would still consider a Drum tougher than Uzit.

I'm really looking forward to seeing these cards.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Anyone know how Legendary is going to offer them?

One lot? Several logical groups? Individually?

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Posted By: J Levine

Ted,

Of course a list of the t205 drums would be very much appreciated as well.

BTW, 8 T205 Drums actually is exactly half the total number of Drum backed t205s I have ever seen to this point...massive find!!

Joshua

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Posted By: Scott Levy

Scott,

I asked Legendary that same question....they did not have a direct answer (probably because they haven't yet decided) but I got the impression that it would be offered as smaller lots and may possibly be spread over more than one auction

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I believe the T205's will be offered individually.....it's the only logical way.

Have no idea how the T206's will be offered.


TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

SCOT R

All I know is that these cards were originally from St Louis. I'll try to find out some more info regarding them.

Some of these T206's are new and I will add them to the DRUM confirmed list. To be posted later.


T206 DRUM's......

Arellanes
Atz
Bescher
Charles
Doolan (bat)
Egan
Elberfeld (Wash. fielding)
Fletcher
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Howell (portrait)
Jordan (bat)
Knabe
Knight (bat)
Kroh
Lake (St Lo-no ball)
LaPorte
Lennox
Maloney
Manning (pitching)
Marshall
Mitchell (Toronto)
Mullen (portrait)
Oakes
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phillippe
Quinn
Rhodes
Schmidt (portrait)
Smith (Buffalo)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Titus
Wagner (bat right shoulder)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willett (bat)
Willetts (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


T205 DRUM's......

Austin
M. Brown
Corridon
Graham (Rustlers)
Latham
Moran
Shean (Rustlers)
Wolter


TED Z

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Thanks Ted!

Jon Canfield has posted elsewhere a circa 1898 Drum Cigarettes graphic identifying the source of origin as "Drummond Tobacco Co., St. Louis, Mo."

Based on that graphic and the situs of the recent T205/T206 find that constitutes a significant share of the total Drum population, can we conclude that Drum Cigarettes were a regional issue marketed exclusively in the St. Louis area?

Scot

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

1. There are no fewer than 18 T206 subjects in this find that I did not previously have documented with Drum:

Bescher (Portrait), Charles, Egan, Fletcher, Gasper, Graham (Boston), Howell (Portrait), Knabe, Knight (With Bat), LaPorte, Mitchell (Toronto), Mullen, Oakes, Perring, Pfeister (Seated), Quinn, He. Smith (Buffalo) and Willett.

Simply amazing.

2. The absence of Hall of Famers is notable--Willis being the only one in the T206 group. It makes me think that someone may have "got to" this find sometime before Willis was elected in 1995 and bought all of the HOFers.

Scot

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Posted By: Marc S.

I'm pretty sure I told you about Knabe Drum example in some prior post, as I've had one for a while, perhaps even from the Hunt find?

M


As for my comment, I tend to look at T-206 collecting primarily from the focus on the team I love...the Philadelphia Nationals. And it's amazing that I've seen perhaps up to seven or eight Philadelphia National T206 Drum cards over the past decade, but only one Uzit [McQuillan batting, and that was nearly ten years ago].

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Marc,

Thanks for the note. Probably a recording error on my part.

Scot

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Posted By: J Levine

Mark,
Let me assure you that there is at least one other Phillie with a Uzit back (Doolan with bat) out there.

Joshua

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Posted By: Marc S.

I've just never seen it. Of course, Doolan is the only Phillie for whom I'm missing a [possible] Lenox, too.

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Posted By: J Levine

I am very thankful that I do not have the compulsion to complete the back types on my t206 and t205 Phillies eventhough I have been fortunate to acquire a few beater tough backs but that was years ago.

Joshua

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Posted By: Jim Rivera

There was a McQuillan bat Uzit in the REA find and it was on ebay not that long ago-maybe 3 months.

That Drum display at Philly was amazing. I got to check them out and most are vg and some vg+. Most tobacco finds are East coast. I would like to find out how they ended up in St. Louis.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

DRUMMOND Tobacco Co. was based in St Louis in the late 19th Century and into the early 20th Century.
James B. Duke added DRUM to his ATC monopoly and cigarette production was in Richmond (Factory 25)....
circa 1910.


TED Z

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Posted By: Craig W

I've cross checked Ted Z's (Hi Ted) list above versus the T206 Drums in the Legendary Auction. I think Ted may have had a couple recording errors:

Ted lists Knight (bat), whereas Legendary is offering Knight (portrait).
Ted lists Mitchell (Toronto), whereas Legendary is offering Mitchell (Cincinnati).


There are two cards in the Legendary Auction that aren't on Ted's list. They are Phelps and Milan.


There are eleven cards on Ted's list that are not being offered in the Legendary Auction:

Atz
Hoblitzell
Jordan (bat)
Lennox
Maloney
Marshall
Phillippe
Rhodes
Wagner (bat right shoulder)
Willetts (throwing)
Wiltse (pitching)


[Please understand this is not meant to be in any way a knock against Ted. He's forgotten far more than I'll ever know about vintage cards and I certainly appreciate and respect the knowledge he so gladly shares. Thanks Ted!]

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I did correct my initial list and gave it to Scot Reader. I should have also corrected it in my list on this thread.

Sorry, that I didn't get around to it.

TED Z

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Posted By: Jim Rivera

Craig

Ted lists Knight (bat), whereas Legendary is offering Knight (portrait).
Ted lists Mitchell (Toronto), whereas Legendary is offering Mitchell (Cincinnati).

all 4 of these cards exist with Drum and Legendary will auction the later and Legendary held back 9/10 T206 Drums and 1 T205 from the St. Louis Find.
Not sure why but maybe they are the better grades.

JR