the list (of criminals) is revealed

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

3) Similarly, where are the other auction houses, coming on to assure us that the practices outlined in Exhibit E, resulting in losses for bidders in the hundreds of thousands from just the few auctions uncovered, has not happened and could never happen to the winners in their auctions? Seems to me there's a lot at stake for them as to how collectors and dealers perceive the degree of fairness of participating in their auctions. Again, crickets.

Amen! There are only a few AH's that I trust since all this *poop* hit the fan, but it sure would be nice if, as a consignor, my AH of choice came on here and said exactly that! I don't want potential bidders and hobbyists to be turned off by all the negativity and fearing that they will be shilled in a perfectly legitimate auction. Why the silence from all the big players? It's in your best interest to come on here and set things straight, whether you're on the list or not!

My guess is that most think that Al's (LOTG), Ryan's (Cubanbaseball), and Rhys's (RMY) auction houses don't have shill-bidding issues - I'm deducing this based on my experience with each and because at least Rhys and Ryan have come on here to chime in - but wouldn't it behoove you (and the bigger players) to come on here and flat out tell it like it is?

I suppose we won't hear from any/all because if there's a chance that someone is shilling their auctions that they don't know about, there could be hell to pay and possible lawsuits in their future. But it sure would be nice to know that someone out there cares and is willing to stick their neck out and say, "here I am...look what I'm doing to prevent shilling from happening in my auctions and no, I have never shilled or allowed shilling to take place in my auctions!" Simple.

[HRBAKER]

Another plausible explanation why they haven't addressed could be that some of them don't care.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Amen! There are only a few AH's that I trust since all this *poop* hit the fan, but it sure would be nice if, as a consignor, my AH of choice came on here and said exactly that! I don't want potential bidders and hobbyists to be turned off by all the negativity and fearing that they will be shilled in a perfectly legitimate auction. Why the silence from all the big players? It's in your best interest to come on here and set things straight, whether you're on the list or not!

My guess is that most think that Al's (LOTG), Ryan's (Cubanbaseball), and Rhys's (RMY) auction houses don't have shill-bidding issues - I'm deducing this based on my experience with each and because at least Rhys and Ryan have come on here to chime in - but wouldn't it behoove you (and the bigger players) to come on here and flat out tell it like it is?

I suppose we won't hear from any/all because if there's a chance that someone is shilling their auctions that they don't know about, there could be hell to pay and possible lawsuits in their future. But it sure would be nice to know that someone out there cares and is willing to stick their neck out and say, "here I am...look what I'm doing to prevent shilling from happening in my auctions and no, I have never shilled or allowed shilling to take place in my auctions!" Simple.

Or could be that shilling, as we define it here to include the house bidding against the public, is at least partially allowable in Texas, where Heritage HQ is located. Their rules say right up front that the house can bid on stuff, as Chris Ivy stated in a 2009 interview:

"Heritage, and its affiliates, in addition to being the largest collectibles auctioneer in the world, is also one of the largest collectibles dealers (i.e., buyers and sellers) in the world," Ivy explained. "Heritage Auction Galleries is almost unique in that regard within the fine art field, as most fine art auction houses aren’t dealers, don’t have dealer affiliates, and thus don’t bid in their own auctions. Most coin and many collectibles auction firms, however, do bid in their own auctions. The fact that we bid in our own sales is fully disclosed online and in our auction catalogs. We state: ‘The Auctioneer or its affiliates may consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other lots.’ Even if we didn’t fully disclose it – which we do – it would be perfectly legal for an auction house or its affiliates to bid in their own auctions so long as the bid is made with the intention of buying the item.’

"Frankly, it wouldn’t be fair to our consignors for us not to bid in our own auction the same amount we would gladly pay for the same item in a competitor’s auction," Ivy observed.

- See more at: http://www.tuffstuff.com/news/herita....p7VVPAqw.dpuf

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Or could be that shilling, as we define it here to include the house bidding against the public, is at least partially allowable in Texas, where Heritage HQ is located. Their rules say right up front that the house can bid on stuff, as Chris Ivy stated in a 2009 interview:

"Heritage, and its affiliates, in addition to being the largest collectibles auctioneer in the world, is also one of the largest collectibles dealers (i.e., buyers and sellers) in the world," Ivy explained. "Heritage Auction Galleries is almost unique in that regard within the fine art field, as most fine art auction houses aren’t dealers, don’t have dealer affiliates, and thus don’t bid in their own auctions. Most coin and many collectibles auction firms, however, do bid in their own auctions. The fact that we bid in our own sales is fully disclosed online and in our auction catalogs. We state: ‘The Auctioneer or its affiliates may consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other lots.’ Even if we didn’t fully disclose it – which we do – it would be perfectly legal for an auction house or its affiliates to bid in their own auctions so long as the bid is made with the intention of buying the item.’

"Frankly, it wouldn’t be fair to our consignors for us not to bid in our own auction the same amount we would gladly pay for the same item in a competitor’s auction," Ivy observed.

- See more at: http://www.tuffstuff.com/news/herita....p7VVPAqw.dpuf

If Heritage bids on and wins a lot. Who do they pay the 20% buyer premium to?
It seems the rest of us may be at a 20% disadvantage....among other problems.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

If Heritage bids on and wins a lot. Who do they pay the 20% buyer premium to?
It seems the rest of us may be at a 20% disadvantage....among other problems.

brilliant question.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

If Heritage bids on and wins a lot. Who do they pay the 20% buyer premium to?
It seems the rest of us may be at a 20% disadvantage....among other problems.

That is a good question because it does give them a 20% price advantage over other bidders.

I have not seen but did Mastro or Allen rat out any of the card doctors they used. Actually is card doctoring even illegal? I would guess not because Dick Towele(SP?) and others openly advertise their business.

[whitehse]

Shill bidding
TPG re-submits for bumps
WIWAG
re-coloring
Creased card "adjustments"
well trusted people in the hobby now going to jail
and on and on

I have been in this hobby for 40+ years as a collector, dealer, card shop owner and now back to a collector. It is at the point where one cannot go to any message boards to talk about the great things this hobby has to offer without seeing hobby dirty laundry being aired out and collectors who I hold in high esteem being reduced to finger pointers and naysayers.

I, for one am done. Not done with collecting but done with reading whine and bitch-fest posts. I think it is time to just get back to enjoying the joys this hobby has to offer and leave this other crap behind. Life can suck and our hobbies are supposed to be an escape from the big plate of crap life dishes up. I cannot let this negative garbage ruin something that has brought me such joy over the years. Granted, I have not lost piles of money like others with these hobby schemes that have popped up but I never allowed myself to get to that point either. For me, its back to enjoying this hobby and the fun it has to offer and try to leave this negativity behind. Hopefully we can all get beyond this garbage and get back to why we are really here.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by whitehse

Shill bidding
TPG re-submits for bumps
WIWAG
re-coloring
Creased card "adjustments"
well trusted people in the hobby now going to jail
and on and on

I have been in this hobby for 40+ years as a collector, dealer, card shop owner and now back to a collector. It is at the point where one cannot go to any message boards to talk about the great things this hobby has to offer without seeing hobby dirty laundry being aired out and collectors who I hold in high esteem being reduced to finger pointers and naysayers.

I, for one am done. Not done with collecting but done with reading whine and bitch-fest posts. I think it is time to just get back to enjoying the joys this hobby has to offer and leave this other crap behind. Life can suck and our hobbies are supposed to be an escape from the big plate of crap life dishes up. I cannot let this negative garbage ruin something that has brought me such joy over the years. Granted, I have not lost piles of money like others with these hobby schemes that have popped up but I never allowed myself to get to that point either. For me, its back to enjoying this hobby and the fun it has to offer and try to leave this negativity behind. Hopefully we can all get beyond this garbage and get back to why we are really here.

Good strategy for you. But I have no problem doing both: participating in and enjoying the hobby to the fullest while at the same time discussing and trying to address the problems. Actually, I enjoy them both.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by whitehse

I, for one am done. Not done with collecting but done with reading whine and bitch-fest posts. I think it is time to just get back to enjoying the joys this hobby has to offer and leave this other crap behind. Life can suck and our hobbies are supposed to be an escape from the big plate of crap life dishes up. I cannot let this negative garbage ruin something that has brought me such joy over the years. Granted, I have not lost piles of money like others with these hobby schemes that have popped up but I never allowed myself to get to that point either. For me, its back to enjoying this hobby and the fun it has to offer and try to leave this negativity behind. Hopefully we can all get beyond this garbage and get back to why we are really here.

Understand completely what you are saying and I’m working on heading down the same path. Over the past few months, I found myself spending a lot of my time getting caught up, focusing, and commenting on all the negatives going on in the hobby; which sometimes is warranted. But I do agree, it would be great to see an entire month go by where everyone is showing off their stuff and just talking about collecting.

[timn1]

to the good-guy list above. Oh! And B&L Auctions as well (Hi Leon & Scott).

All those guys (like Ryan C. and Al C. and Rhys) are collectors who happen to have their own auction companies, rather than people just out for the money (Mastro was a collector once about a million years ago, I guess, but always a jerk).

No one has been bitching about them shilling their customers. For those of you sick of the negativity, these are your shining examples of all the things that are right about the hobby.

My hope is that Mastro/Legendary's downfall, and the ambiguities about Heritage's policy of bidding on its own items (though I don't doubt they are above-board), will benefit these smaller auction houses. REA notwithstanding (and with all respect to Brian Dwyer who is a standup guy for sure), the hobby would be better off without the big-money auction houses.

Tim

[MVSNYC]

https://lotgauctions.wordpress.com/2...s-about-fraud/

Saw this today on LOTG's blog...well written, Al.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

https://lotgauctions.wordpress.com/2...s-about-fraud/

Saw this today on LOTG's blog...well written, Al.

Nuff said!

[Shoebox]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

https://lotgauctions.wordpress.com/2...s-about-fraud/

Saw this today on LOTG's blog...well written, Al.

"But one thing we can unequivocally promise our customers, our consignors, our families and our friends: you will never, ever see us deliberately engage in fraudulent behavior.

Period."

Exactly what I want and expect. Thank you Al!

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

My guess is that most think that Al's (LOTG), Ryan's (Cubanbaseball), and Rhys's (RMY) auction houses don't have shill-bidding issues - I'm deducing this based on my experience with each and because at least Rhys and Ryan have come on here to chime in - but wouldn't it behoove you (and the bigger players) to come on here and flat out tell it like it is?

.

In my experience with Sterling, I'd say 50 percent of my winning bids went for less than my max. I'd definitely add him to this good guy list

Rich