Please show a card more rare than Wagner (T206)

[HRBAKER]

[Leon]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

.... Seeing all this talent really makes me even question why the T206 Wags is valued so high. This may sound crazy, but I don't think I would want to invest 6 figures in it. What makes it worth so much? There is no rarity. Perhaps minimal scarcity. Only bloated fascination that has amplified over the decades. To be clear I am not a hater (just don't understand is more like it...) and think it's a neat card but so many more HOFer's in the T206 set are more scarce with backs like Lenox, etc. .....

The value of the T206 Wags has very little to do with rarity (population) as it has more to do with scarcity (people wanting one). I venture to guess I have literally hundreds, maybe a thousand, cards more rare than Wags...but none remotely as valuable..

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Leon

The value of the T206 Wags has very little to do with rarity (population) as it has more to do with scarcity (people wanting one). I venture to guess I have literally hundreds, maybe a thousand, cards more rare than Wags...but none remotely as valuable..

Hey Leon, one major thing that the Wagner has going for it is hobby lore and tradition. And when something gets that ensconced in the hobby psyche, it essentially becomes part of the collecting fabric, which, will essentially allow for monetary growth regardless of its rarity.

[pbspelly]

Leon is absolutely correct. There are tons of cards rarer than the Wagner (including, I would guess, my Plow's Candy below), but few or none that have the Wagner T206 combination of
1) top 10 Hall-of-Famer
2)hugely popular card series (T206)
3)scarcity
4) interesting back story (the whole tobacco thing, whether true or not).
Not to mention famous owners, such as Gretzky.

[MVSNYC]

Leon is absolutely correct. There are tons of cards rarer than the Wagner (including, I would guess, my Plow's Candy below), but few or none that have the Wagner T206 combination of
1) top 10 Hall-of-Famer
2)hugely popular card series (T206)
3)scarcity
4) interesting back story (the whole tobacco thing, whether true or not).
Not to mention famous owners, such as Gretzky.

.................................................. ..........................................

Well put.

# 1, 2 & 4 = Desirability. There have been many cards posted in this thread that are WAY scarcer than the T206 Wagner, BUT almost all lack the overall desirability.

Supply/Demand.

[Runscott]

Two sub-lists I would like to see:

1. T206 cards (back variations included, but no scraps) that are more rare than Wagner.

2. HOF cards (fronts only - back variations NOT considered) that are more rare than Wagner.

[MattyC]

It's also worth noting that while many cards are indeed rarer than the Wagner, for many of those cards the rarity is coming from the ad on the back, as opposed to it being a wholly unique front image.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Leon is absolutely correct. There are tons of cards rarer than the Wagner (including, I would guess, my Plow's Candy below), but few or none that have the Wagner T206 combination of
1) top 10 Hall-of-Famer
2)hugely popular card series (T206)
3)scarcity
4) interesting back story (the whole tobacco thing, whether true or not).
Not to mention famous owners, such as Gretzky.

.................................................. ..........................................

Well put.

# 1, 2 & 4 = Desirability. There have been many cards posted in this thread that are WAY scarcer than the T206 Wagner, BUT almost all lack the overall desirability.

Supply/Demand.

We've had this discussion many times.
Rare = total number of a particular card
Scarce = Total number of a card, considering also the demand for that card.

Lots of cards are much more rare than Wagner (especially if you throw in front/back variations). But none are close in terms of scarcity, except perhaps the Baltimore News Ruth.

[Sean]

But regardless of how we define "rare" this was still a fun thread.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I am guessing that the Wagner has the highest percentage of graded specimens in existence. I will also guess that even for the rarer vintage cards out there the graded percentage goes way down.

This is a really off the wall guess but I would say that way fewer than 10 percent of most say T206s are graded. I know of three local collections including mine where no cards are graded. So basing rarity on graded populations is probably not very accurate?

I agree with MVSNYC assessment of the Wagner and its' position in the hobby.

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by Sean

We've had this discussion many times.
Rare = total number of a particular card
Scarce = Total number of a card, considering also the demand for that card.

Lots of cards are much more rare than Wagner (especially if you throw in front/back variations). But none are close in terms of scarcity, except perhaps the Baltimore News Ruth.

I think we are saying the same thing...I see your point. I used the word "scarcer", but ultimately meant "rarer".

[lutherlafy]

No 1917-20 Felix Mendelshohn cards posted......

[lutherlafy]

A scarce set is the 1910 Orange Borders.
I believe mine is the only one in a PSA holder
and there are a few in SGC holders.

[DixieBaseball]

[QUOTE=Leon;1362635]The value of the T206 Wags has very little to do with rarity (population) as it has more to do with scarcity (people wanting one). I venture to guess I have literally hundreds, maybe a thousand, cards more rare than Wags...but none remotely as valuable..

LL - I sorta get what you are saying, but why do people want one? When did people start wanting one? Who drove this card to the peak of the hobby and when did it register ? (What year?)

I think Brent nailed it : "... When something gets ensconced in the hobby psyche..."

So when did the Wags take off and become important? 1950's ? Why did that happen?

As far as Top 10 HOFer, T206 set, etc. --- That would easily apply to Cobb. So why not Cobb ? Which Cobb with a T206 back would fit in that 60-80 examples known range?

I believe the Baltimore Ruth will eventually become the Pinnacle card in the hobby. It's sorta already happening the last few sales... It's getting there. Cobb w/ Cobb back is too rare perhaps. I would rather own it over the Wags, but that is just me.

Good discussion, guys - Here's another one that is more rare than T-Wags :

[Robextend]

Only a couple graded between PSA and SGC

[pbspelly]

[QUOTE=DixieBaseball;1362991]

Originally Posted by Leon

As far as Top 10 HOFer, T206 set, etc. --- That would easily apply to Cobb. So why not Cobb ? Which Cobb with a T206 back would fit in that 60-80 examples known range?

I believe the Baltimore Ruth will eventually become the Pinnacle card in the hobby. It's sorta already happening the last few sales... It's getting there. Cobb w/ Cobb back is too rare perhaps. I would rather own it over the Wags, but that is just me.

As someone else pointed out, the rare Cobb T206 cards have to do with a rare back. Whereas the rare Wagner T206 is (I believe) the only T206 with Wagner on the front. So the Wagner is desirable even for folks who are not into rare backs.

That said, I agree that a Cobb w/Cobb back is cooler than the Wagner at this point.

[Leon]

[QUOTE=pbspelly;1363086]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

As someone else pointed out, the rare Cobb T206 cards have to do with a rare back. Whereas the rare Wagner T206 is (I believe) the only T206 with Wagner on the front. So the Wagner is desirable even for folks who are not into rare backs.

That said, I agree that a Cobb w/Cobb back is cooler than the Wagner at this point.

The Wags and the '52 Mantle transcend the hobby. There are people that own them that don't collect cards. They own them because they are feathers in a cap, status symbols....and damn good investments so far.
Barely any, if any, other baseball cards do that.

[Bicem]

Wow, great Ruth and Cobb m101-6's!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Wow, great Ruth and Cobb m101-6's!

yessir!

[DixieBaseball]

As someone else pointed out, the rare Cobb T206 cards have to do with a rare back. Whereas the rare Wagner T206 is (I believe) the only T206 with Wagner on the front. So the Wagner is desirable even for folks who are not into rare backs.

That said, I agree that a Cobb w/Cobb back is cooler than the Wagner at this point.[/QUOTE]

... but the Wagner T206 is not rare at all with sweet cap back and not rare with it's front either... There are about a hundred of them out there... They are simply wanted for their celebrity value. They have been over marketed along with the Mantle to be the "it" cards of our hobby for 50 years. I think that the Wags "was" a good investment, but I don't believe it has much more appreciation ahead over the coming decades. (I could be wrong of course...) I still think the the T-Wags is a nice looking portrait though and a nice collectible.

Agreed with Leon's point on the Wags & Mantle rook... as someone pointed out early... they have been ensconced in the psyche of the public as the "it" cards to own.

[Eggoman]

I'm "IN"...as far as I know, these are the only 2 Greiner's Bread cards on PSA or SGC Pop Report...

[MikeGarcia]

.....Type Two Wide Pens , 1936 Goudey Premiums , R-314

....when it takes eight years to find , let alone upgrade , a particular item ... we need our own page of adjectives in here .

[Golfcollector]

I sold this one with all of my golf cards, but this is the only one graded, and one of the toughest golf cards there is.

1925 Empreza Walter Hagen

[AndrewJerome]

My favorite Zeenut:

[ullmandds]

here are some...not hard to find pre ww-I cards "rarer" than wags!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Eggoman

I'm "IN"...as far as I know, these are the only 2 Greiner's Bread cards on PSA or SGC Pop Report...

[Eggoman]

Hey Leon - Nice Card! I knew there was at least one more out there... We talked about these YEARS AGO - I missed out on a Near Set because the Seller and I couldn't agree on a price as "Greiner's" weren't listed in any of the Price Guides...Tharp's - Yes, Yeungling's - of course, but NOT Greiner's. I've NEVER managed to catch up with that seller and have no idea where the cards ended up. He was an old Coin Dealer. Coulda, woulda, shoulda...I'm sure that we were only "a few dollars" apart but Food Issues weren't appreciated much in the mid-1980s. But Modern Rookie cards - NOW WE'RE TALKIN"!!!!!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Eggoman

Hey Leon - Nice Card! I knew there was at least one more out there... We talked about these YEARS AGO - I missed out on a Near Set because the Seller and I couldn't agree on a price as "Greiner's" weren't listed in any of the Price Guides...Tharp's - Yes, Yeungling's - of course, but NOT Greiner's. I've NEVER managed to catch up with that seller and have no idea where the cards ended up. He was an old Coin Dealer. Coulda, woulda, shoulda...I'm sure that we were only "a few dollars" apart but Food Issues weren't appreciated much in the mid-1980s. But Modern Rookie cards - NOW WE'RE TALKIN"!!!!!

There is at least one more also. It's another Harris in very poor condition. A good hobby friend has it. Yes, you had shown me those 2 long ago. I know of these 3 and that 1, so 4 total....which is quite scarce. Four is also the number of these I am aware of...

[DixieBaseball]

As I look through all these cards it occurred to me that almost every pre-war issue has cards that probably are more scarce/rare than the T206 Wagner. Look at all the different types represented in this thread. I don't recall seeing a Fatima, so I will add this card in here (Perhaps I glossed over one in this thread..) as I am quite sure there aren't 75 or more of these floating around...

I'm not certain this card is more rare than the T206, but PSA population report shows 14 graded in this pose, while SGC shows 31 total between the "batting" and "throwing" poses...this being the highest graded example of either pose by either company.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

I'm not certain this card is more rare than the T206, but PSA population report shows 14 graded in this pose, while SGC shows 31 total between the "batting" and "throwing" poses...this being the highest graded example of either pose by either company.

I'd surmise most e106's are more rare than t206 honus!

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I'd surmise most e106's are more rare than t206 honus!

Now, if we could only do something about that whole demand thing I'd be in business! I'm hoping as the T206's continue to ascend into the stratosphere this card, and others, might gain traction with us other 99%'ers.

[ullmandds]

Every single one of these Millers is rarer than t206 wagner...1/3 more rare than doyle, nat'l.

[Sean]

Hi Pete. What is the difference between the two American Caramel cards?
Is it just the lack of red color in the background? Or is there something more?

[ephus]

This Wagner is more rare than the t206 Wagner

[ullmandds]

Sean...yep...Sunset and no sunset variations.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by ephus

This Wagner is more rare than the t206 Wagner

Rarer than doyle too

1913 Blank Bank Pinkerton EX-NM

[glenv]

Not sure if the Donut Co. Ruth is rarer, but a full panel should be:

donut_co_ft.jpg

[edjs]

This thread was referenced in another today, and I figured why not revive it. Especially since I have acquired more to display here!

[chiprop]

every card I own is more rare than a t-206 Wagner...

[gabrinus]

Nice ones Ed.....you beat me on that Oldring.......Jerry

[edjs]

Originally Posted by gabrinus

Nice ones Ed.....you beat me on that Oldring.......Jerry

Jerry, I sure wanted at least one of your last five listings, but my last HA winnings kept me out of the running. I look forward to your sales all the time!

[clydepepper]

Lots of great stuff in this thread!

I like my collection of 112-year-old one-of-ones:

(I actually have two others: Jimmy Burke & Jack Taylor - without scans)

1904 ALLEGHENY ED MURPHY SGC 88.jpg

1904 ALLEGHENY SAM LEEVER SGC 84.jpg

1904 Allegheny Card Co JJ Warner PSA-8.jpg

1904 Alleghent Card Co Joe McGinnty SGC 40.jpg

1904 Allegheny Card Co Christy Mathewson PSA-5.jpg

[edjs]

Real cool, Raymond. Real cool.

Pretty sure this qualifies. May be close

[CW]

Very impressive, Raymond. You should go for a complete set!

And that's a great looking Wagner there, Dan. I'll take VG 3s like that all day.

[t213]

a few more

Andy