T206 Question (MastroNet)

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Posted By: T206Collector

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=54722&CurrentRow=1

This partial set of 521 cards sold for $37,000. I have two questions --

(1) The last line in the description says 22% of the collection are trimmed. That's 115 trimmed cards. Anyone else find that very unusual? If you were trying to put together a collection, it would actually be pretty hard to find that many loose T206 cards trimmed. Does anyone else think that would throw a huge question mark over the highly graded cards in the collection?

And...

(2) They say there are 521 "missing only Doyle/NY NL, Magie, Plank and Wagner for completion." Well, wouldn't that make 520? You only get 525 cards if you count Cobb with Cobb Advert on reverse, right?

I think my set is complete without Doyle/NY NL, Magie, Plank and Wagner but at only 520. Which one am I missing/or has MastroNet miscounted?

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Posted By: T206Collector

...but can someone at least tell me how many cards a T206 set minus Wagner, Plank, Magie and Doyle Variations would have? Is it not 520?

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Posted By: Charlie O'Neal

I was suprised at the auction b/c the majority of the HOFers were trimmed and the auction still beat the other 2 T206 lot that were sold that didn't have all of the trimmed carnage.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

T206Collector

Bill Heitman in "The Monster" (1980) catalogues 520 cards (minus
Magie, Plank. Wagner....Doyle was unknown at that time) and that
is sufficient for me....period. Bill Mastro has his numbers wrong.

Incidently, in another thread you listed all the possible back
permutations. Did you list them according to how tough they are ?

I have a DRUM and the equally rare PIEDMONT 350-460 Subjects,
Factory 42. Do you concur that both these backs are the toughest ?

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Posted By: T206Collector

Thanks for the response! (I have the Monster, and should have just checked it myself.) I pulled the list off of T206museum.com and it purports to list the backs in scarcity order. I really have no personal idea on relative scarcity, other than what I've read on the board. My scarcest back is an American Beauty...

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
Here is the list I go by:
1. Ty Cobb back (If it belongs to the T206 set)
2. Old Mill Overprint/Old Mill brown(I do not think either of these were distributed in packs.)
3. Broad Leaf 460
4. Drum
5. Uzit
6. Lenox Brown
7. Red Hindu
8. Lenox Black
9. Blank Back
10 Piedmont 42
11.Broad Leaf
12.Carolina Brights
13.Hindu
14.American Beauty 460
15.Sovereign 460
16.American Beauty 350 no frame
17.Cycle 460
18.American Beauty 350 with frame
19.Cycle 350
20.Tolstoi
21.Sovereign 150
22.Sweet Cap 350-460 fac 25
23.Old Mill Sler
24.Sweet Cap 350-460 Fac 42
25.Sweet Cap 150 649 overprint
26.El Principe De Gales
27.Sovereign 350
28.Old Mill
29.Polar Bear
30.Sweet Cap 350-460 scroll fac 42
31.Sweet Cap 150 fac 25
32.Sweet Cap 350 fac 25
33.Sweet Cap 350-460 fac 30
34.Piedmont 350-460 fac 25
35.Sweet Cap 150 fac 25
36.Piedmont 150 fac 25
37.Sweet Cap 350 fac 30
38.Piedmont 350 fac 25

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Richard

Perhaps Mastro included some variations in the lot and/or used a checklist that included variations.

When I first read this post I compared the two T206 checklists that I have; one listed 524 and the other 525. The difference ended up being that the larger of the two had the 'Shappe' variation listed.

Just a thought...

Regards,

Richard.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Richard

I read Mastro's description carefully and he does not note any printing
type "error or variation" cards. Bill just simply made a mistake in his
description of "521" cards. I've known Bill since 1982, he's a great guy,
but even he is allowed to err once in awhile.

Printing errors such as Shappe, Snodgrass, Orange background Cobb, etc.,
are separate anamolies and are not identified as the original 524 basic
cards that comprise the T206 set.

T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Brian W.

I really appreciate this list that you provided; Thanks much.

Have you ever seen the two OLD MILL overprints ? In the 24 years that
I have been collecting these neat little gems, I have never seen these
two backs.

Also, I was surprised to see the BROAD LEAF 460 above the DRUM on
this list. Although, I still do not have this BROAD LEAF var., I always
felt that the DRUM was the toughest of all backs (excluding the Ty Cobb
back, since most veterans in the hobby believe it is a non-T206 card).

Regards, Ted Z

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
Yes, I have seen the single in person and the double in a scan, so they do exist, but are extremely rare. I believe there were 4-6 in an auction 7-8 years ago, but can't find the catalog to prove it. Either way,I don't believe they were ever inserted into packs, but a printers mistake or printers scrap that was not widely circulated. There is a gentleman who frequents the board who has one,and hopefully he will provide a scan. He sent me one a year or so aqgo, but I can't seem to find it.

I'm not sure if the Broadleaf 460 is really tougher than the Drum, but the survey conducted by Art and Bill a few years ago suggested that it was slightly tougher overall. However, a few years ago, one of our board members found a small group of 8-10 460's, and I have seen several groups of 2-4 come out of the woodwork in the last year. So maybe they are catching up...

Congrats on finishing your second set.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Brian W.

Thanks for the compliments on my 2nd set of T206 cards.

What can I expect to pay for a BROAD LEAF 460 (non-HOFer)
in Vg-Ex to Ex condition ?

Regards, T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I would say $1250 to $1800.00 is about right for a common, but I've seen more HOFERS than commons with 460 backs. Good luck Brian

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Posted By: Louis Despres

Here is a scan of the single overprint Old Mill I have. I picked this up in a Lew Lipset auction a number of years ago. From the creases it looks as if it is the one scanned on the t206museum.com. It also happens to be brown.

site.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Louis

Thanks for showing your OLD MILL overprint. This is the first time I have
seen this T206 back; and, I have been collecting T206's for 25 years.

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Posted By: Ed McCollum

but the overprint appears to be a Sweet Cap overprint, printed upside down on the back of an Old Mill card? I can't make out what it says, but it would appear to be a printers scrap back, giving credence to the idea that the same printer printed all the cards and they were just distributed to the factories as needed.

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Posted By: Despres Louis

The overprint is: Factory 649 1st Dist. N.Y.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I've never seen that back either and it's hard to imagine the overprint would have been deliberately printed upside down. But no question it is extremely rare; the red print looks really neat. I love it!

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Posted By: Ed McCollum

or is it just a printing error? I could see it as a really neat printing error, much like a blank backed card, or one of those you see occasionally where there are the corners of four card backs printed on the back of one card, but an actual "classified as rare" back type? I'd be more convinced if the printing was at least right side up. (I'm not ripping your card, Louis. It is very cool, and would be a great addition to a T206 collection. I just have trouble calling it a back type, not a print error. The Cobb back would be a closer family member than this seems to be.)

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Posted By: tfever

Old Mill overprint bar also comes with black bar variations. There are two known to exist. Has anyone ever seen a OM overprint double bar in color? Does it has red or black bar?

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Posted By: robert a

I think the old mill overprints deserve a little more discussion.
Especially since so few of us have seen/owned them before.

Whether or not these particular backs should be considered at "back types" is open for discussion and probably depends on the collector.

Good eye Ed!
The "Factory 649 1st Dist. N.Y." is exactly the same line (with the block out) you'll find on:

Sweet Cap. 150s with the overprints.

The print on the old mills is upside down and placed in a wierd location. It's possible that the sheet was incorrectly positioned before the strike. It looks like the factory used the same red ink used for the sweet caps. After the printing, the sheet might have been discarded or kept by a worker.

Does Louis' card look handcut like some of the blank backs?

The same factory also distributed:

Hindu Brown
Hindu Red.........the same two ink colors that are found on Louis' card.

As far as tfever's card, this is more consistent with black printed s.l. old mills. These are the old mill overprints/double overprints that I have seen pictures of in the past

Perhaps the VA factory sent SLers to the NY factory for distribution around New York/New England area.

These are fascinating variations and whether or not they are true backs is really not important to me. I've always used a back checklist that included them, so other collectors must have seen more than a couple of them. Blank backs are printer's scrap as well, but I think most t206 collectors consider them a back type.

Any other thoughts about these?

Robert

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Posted By: JimB

That is an interesting thought that the red overprint was mistakenly placed on this Old Mill card instead of a Sweet Cap. And Upside down to boot.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

The question is if the sheet were placed properly aligned on the printing press instead of upside-down, would that overprint be at the bottom of the card where it belongs? It's about and inch and a half too high.

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Posted By: robert a

Good point Barry,

I just can't see any reason why the overprint and factory line would be placed upside down under the brand name.

robert

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Posted By: robert a

By the way, does anyone have a scan of the oldmill sl double overprint?

thanks.
robert