“Good guys” of the dead ball era?

[destijl03]

My apologies if similar threads have been made in the past, but I wasn’t able to find anything in the search. I’m curious if anyone here, in all of the extensive research that’s been done over the years, knows of players from the dead ball era (other than the obvious Mathewson) who were known and widely respected for being decent men, or the “good guys”. It feels like any time I’m reading a player bio from that era, one, some, or all of the traits of hot-headedness, corruption, poor treatment of umps, fans, teammates, etc. are mentioned and it just made me wonder who the decent men of the time were. I’ve read before that Eddie Plank was widely respected for being very friendly, loyal, humble, and a solid family man, and was known for taking the time to mentor rookie pitchers on the team, which was rare for the time. Who else besides Matty and Plank stand out for that era?

[Metsfan0507]

Addie Joss was so highly respected that when he died in the middle of his career, the players organized the first all star game to raise money for his family.

[cgjackson222]

Walter Johnson: It was written of him in the Washington Post two days after his passing that “Walter Johnson, more than any other ballplayer, probably more than any other athlete, professional or amateur, became the symbol of gentlemanly conduct in the heat of battle."

From his SABR biography: Walter "was now admired all over America not only for his pitching exploits and his fierce competitiveness, but also for the modesty, humility and dignity with which he conducted himself, never arguing with umpires, berating his teammates for their errors, brushing back hitters or using “foreign substances” on the baseball. At a time when many ballplayers were ruffians and drunkards, Walter was never in a brawl and didn’t patronize saloons."

[G1911]

Biographies skew negative in the last few decades. Good upstanding people who quietly lived a decent life don't make good fodder for books, and usually don't get as much press as people who broke rules and did unusual or exciting things, which for an athlete usually means something negative. A juicy attack on a person sells more copies than a fair portrayal in recent times, and so the laudatory biography has mostly died outside of the political realm and been generally replaced with its opposite.

Billy Sunday will be hard to top.

[GeoPoto]

Walter Johnson not only never threw at anyone, but he dominated Ty Cobb the first (I think it is) five years they played. After that Cobb dominated Johnson. Cobb said he figured out that if he hung out over the plate, Johnson would be so worried he would hit Cobb, that Cobb could ignore the inside pitch.

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[destijl03]

Originally Posted by G1911

Biographies skew negative in the last few decades. Good upstanding people who quietly lived a decent life don't make good fodder for books, and usually don't get as much press as people who broke rules and did unusual or exciting things, which for an athlete usually means something negative. A juicy attack on a person sells more copies than a fair portrayal in recent times, and so the laudatory biography has mostly died outside of the political realm and been generally replaced with its opposite.

Billy Sunday will be hard to top.

I think about this sometimes when looking at tobacco cards, how it’s a shame that we’ll likely never know more than a few stats and a paragraph-long on-field bio of the majority of the players, especially the commons, either because they lived quietly or didn’t make for an interesting story. I’m much more interested in reading the stories of the guys who made a positive difference in their teammates’ and families’ lives rather than the guys who berated, scuffled, or cheated.

[theshowandme]

Jim Thorpe endured a lot and handled it like a gent.

[judsonhamlin]

I’ll nominate Frank Baker. Modest and humble guy who lost his twins and first wife within a few years and prevented a lynching in his hometown in the ‘20’s

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

I’ll nominate Frank Baker. Modest and humble guy who lost his twins and first wife within a few years and prevented a lynching in his hometown in the ‘20’s

Good call, I forgot about that story.

[Keith H. Thompson]

known as a "gentle giant" who was never fined in his career nor "argued with an umpire in his life."

[Mark17]

I've read that Wagner used to play ball with kids after games. You have to be a pretty nice guy to do that. Hans Lobert said Wagner was a very fine fellow who loved a good joke.

And if the widely accepted version of the T206 story is true, he went out of his way to not allow his name to help sell tobacco products.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

Walter Johnson not only never threw at anyone, but he dominated Ty Cobb the first (I think it is) five years they played. After that Cobb dominated Johnson. Cobb said he figured out that if he hung out over the plate, Johnson would be so worried he would hit Cobb, that Cobb could ignore the inside pitch.

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+1 for Johnson..

[Leon]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

Walter Johnson not only never threw at anyone, but he dominated Ty Cobb the first (I think it is) five years they played. After that Cobb dominated Johnson. Cobb said he figured out that if he hung out over the plate, Johnson would be so worried he would hit Cobb, that Cobb could ignore the inside pitch.

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

+1 for Johnson..

[Eric72]

Connie Mack strikes me as the type of "good guy" you're looking for. Here's a Code of Conduct he created for his players:

I will always play the game to the best of my ability.
I will always play to win, but if I lose, I will not look for an excuse to detract from my opponent's victory.
I will never take an unfair advantage in order to win.
I will always abide by the rules of the game—on the diamond as well as in my daily life.
I will always conduct myself as a true sportsman—on and off the playing field.
I will always strive for the good of the entire team rather than for my own glory.
I will never gloat in victory or pity myself in defeat.
I will do my utmost to keep myself clean—physically, mentally, and morally.
I will always judge a teammate or an opponent as an individual and never on the basis of race or religion.

[Snapolit1]

Cool thread.

I wouldn't necessarily blame this on moden trends for bios to spin negative; there was plenty of negative press at the time these guys played and built their reputations. Does seem to be premium in those days on very hard ass play, take any advantage you can get sort of play, willingness to throw punches when required.

[packs]

Rube Waddell was a hell of a guy when he had his wits about him. Didn’t he die as a result of saving a town from a flood?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by packs

Rube Waddell was a hell of a guy when he had his wits about him. Didn’t he die as a result of saving a town from a flood?

I think they attribute a bad case of pneumonia to that, but he died from tuberculosis a couple of years later.

[Yoda]

Certainly Tris Speaker until he got involved with Cobb betting on games that was pretty much swept under the rug.

He went out of his way to help his old teammate and roommate Joe Wood when Joe blew his arm out, bringing him to Cleveland where Joe played a very decent center field.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Cool thread.

I wouldn't necessarily blame this on moden trends for bios to spin negative; there was plenty of negative press at the time these guys played and built their reputations. Does seem to be premium in those days on very hard ass play, take any advantage you can get sort of play, willingness to throw punches when required.

Newspapers have always known that sleaze sells best. Biographies at this time period were usually one of two types, the kind still influenced by the German objectivity movement and the laudatory biography, a Christian overtoned version of Plutarch where the subject is used as a example of proper living and to instill values.

Today most of what is said about the old time players come from the biographies written of them long after they retired, not primary sources directly. These books skew to a more modern philosophy of biography, some in the sleazier 'juice sells' group like Cramer's Dimaggio and Stump's straight up fictional Cobb as an early example of it, and some with a softer approach and more meticulous fact checking but a similar philosophy. Laudatory has given way to its opposite, trying to bring down the figure instead of raise them up (neither of which is usually very accurate), and the ideal of objectivity is long dead. Biographers tend to focus on scandal, on misconduct, on things the subject said or did that is not in line with what is popular thought today. A new juicy claim sells books and pre-publication attention, not a fairly reported accounting of a decently lived life without much scandal.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Connie Mack strikes me as the type of "good guy" you're looking for. Here's a Code of Conduct he created for his players:

I will always play the game to the best of my ability.
I will always play to win, but if I lose, I will not look for an excuse to detract from my opponent's victory.
I will never take an unfair advantage in order to win.
I will always abide by the rules of the game—on the diamond as well as in my daily life.
I will always conduct myself as a true sportsman—on and off the playing field.
I will always strive for the good of the entire team rather than for my own glory.
I will never gloat in victory or pity myself in defeat.
I will do my utmost to keep myself clean—physically, mentally, and morally.
I will always judge a teammate or an opponent as an individual and never on the basis of race or religion.

...but he'd have been cancelled in a heartbeat today for his infamous comment when he first saw Jackie on the field.

[boneheadandrube]

Dode Paskert rescued a bunch of people from a burning building in 1921, does that count?

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/dode-paskert/



1916 M101-5 Famous & Barr Paskert SGC 4.5.jpg

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Certainly Tris Speaker until he got involved with Cobb betting on games that was pretty much swept under the rug.

He went out of his way to help his old teammate and roommate Joe Wood when Joe blew his arm out, bringing him to Cleveland where Joe played a very decent center field.

Speaker went out of his way to train Larry Doby to become a centerfielder. But his association with the KKK and his dislike of his Catholic teammates is a black eye.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

Dode Paskert rescued a bunch of people from a burning building in 1921, does that count?

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/dode-paskert/



Attachment 576232

So did George Davis.

[Casey2296]

I have a hard time judging any players fron that era when we give a pass to current /recent players for mudering their girlfriends or a member of their posse, raping hotel staff, and brandishing firearms in a public bar.

Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

[Swadewade51]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I've read that Wagner used to play ball with kids after games. You have to be a pretty nice guy to do that. Hans Lobert said Wagner was a very fine fellow who loved a good joke.



And if the widely accepted version of the T206 story is true, he went out of his way to not allow his name to help sell tobacco products.

Wagner and Speaker, among others, blackballed players of color from the National Baseball Congress semi-pro tournament a year after Satchel Paige and his integrated team won it.

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[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

So did George Davis.

Lol, I guess lots of building fires back in those days!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I have a hard time judging any players fron that era when we give a pass to current /recent players for mudering their girlfriends or a member of their posse, raping hotel staff, and brandishing firearms in a public bar.

Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

What homicides is this referencing?

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by G1911

What homicides is this referencing?

Rae Caruth, Aaron Hernandez, Kobe Bryant, Ja Morant in that order. Folks love to apply current moral standards to players of the past. Players today are worse than the players of 1910. We've gone from systemic racism which we've made great strides in curing to excusing bad behavior and personal responsibility for sports stars.
Both are wrong in my opinion.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Rae Caruth, Aaron Hernandez, Kobe Bryant, Ja Morant in that order. Folks love to apply current moral standards to players of the past. Players today are worse than the players of 1910. We've gone from systemic racism which we've made great strides in curing to excusing bad behavior and personal responsibility for sports stars.
Both are wrong in my opinion.

Ah, I was thinking of baseball and couldn't come with up anything that fit. Makes sense. Caruth got 18 years for conspiracy to commit murder. Hernandez was acquitted at trial (I have not seen any evidence he was acquitted for dishonest reasons, like OJ) but is widely seen as absolutely guilty and is reviled. I'm not sure I'm seeing how they have been excused or given a pass though? Athletes back then also committed homicide. What am I missing? I am not aware of any significant faction in the US that believes an athlete should be allowed to commit murder without consequence or gives a pass for it.

EDIT: Actually, I believe Hernandez was found guilty of the first homicide and not guilty of the other two, and was serving a life sentence already.

[michael3322]

On the topic of heroes, I'll nominate Roger Bresnahan.

Baseball Hall of Fame did a nice write-up of how he and other players saved lives when coming upon a train wreck.

https://baseballhall.org/discover/tr...rdinals-heroes

[alywa]

Charles Albert Bender (Chief) put up with a lot of racism and grief throughout his career. He was not only one of the best pitchers of his era, he was considered one of the best trap shooters and bowlers in the country as well.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

Lol, I guess lots of building fires back in those days!

So did Waddell - carrying a stove out of a crowded department store.

The reason there were so many fires is that just about everything was built from wood, and the buildings were heated mostly by contained fire.

[drumback]

Waddell assaulted and seriously injured his in-laws when they kicked him out of their house for not paying his rent. He then left town in a hurry to avoid arrest. I believe this disqualifies him.

[clydepepper]

Christy Mathewson & Ray Chapman.

[Seven]

It'd be remiss to not mention Christy Mathewson.

He was a clean cut, well educated individual. He refused to pitch on Sundays because he believed in Christianity. He took nature walks, loved to read, and was well liked by virtually everyone around baseball. He was a published author and wrote a play.