PSA/Goldin affiliation

[squelch]

This summer I submitted about 60 cards to PSA at the Atlantic City National Sports Collectors Convention.

Today I received word from PSA that my cards are soon to be graded and that I am advised to have PSA ship them to the Goldin Auctions Vault as soon as they are graded.

Would this not be akin to the FDA owning a pharmaceutical company?

The first thing that went through my mind is that my decision to act on their request, which they made BEFORE they graded my cards, would or certainly could influence the grades of my cards.

I would also point out that JSA who authenticate signatures now run their own auctions.

I have 0 evidence suggesting either of the 2 companies have acted with impropriety. Still, these mergers/acquisitions are detrimental to the hobby. Abuse of trust can easily happen. No grader or authenticator should be allowed to sell the products whose legitimacy they determine.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by squelch

This summer I submitted about 60 cards to PSA at the Atlantic City National Sports Collectors Convention.

Today I received word from PSA that my cards are soon to be graded and that I am advised to have PSA ship them to the Goldin Auctions Vault as soon as they are graded.

Would this not be akin to the FDA owning a pharmaceutical company?

The first thing that went through my mind is that my decision to act on their request, which they made BEFORE they graded my cards, would or certainly could influence the grades of my cards.

I would also point out that JSA who authenticate signatures now run their own auctions.

I have 0 evidence suggesting either of the 2 companies have acted with impropriety. Still, these mergers/acquisitions are detrimental to the hobby. Abuse of trust can easily happen. No grader or authenticator should be allowed to sell the products whose legitimacy they determine.

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000................ ...................................

Have said all along that for TPGs to be truly honest and doing the job they are supposed to be doing, they need to be completely open, transparent, and totally independent of any and all bias and conflicts-of-interest in both fact AND appearance. And they also need to be subject to some outside oversight and control as to their standards and the consistency to which they follow and apply them.

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by squelch

This summer I submitted about 60 cards to PSA at the Atlantic City National Sports Collectors Convention.

Today I received word from PSA that my cards are soon to be graded and that I am advised to have PSA ship them to the Goldin Auctions Vault as soon as they are graded.

Would this not be akin to the FDA owning a pharmaceutical company?

The first thing that went through my mind is that my decision to act on their request, which they made BEFORE they graded my cards, would or certainly could influence the grades of my cards.

I would also point out that JSA who authenticate signatures now run their own auctions.

I have 0 evidence suggesting either of the 2 companies have acted with impropriety. Still, these mergers/acquisitions are detrimental to the hobby. Abuse of trust can easily happen. No grader or authenticator should be allowed to sell the products whose legitimacy they determine.

Please point me to a JSA run auction. I do not believe they are running their own auctions. They may send out emails featuring other auction houses which may use them for authentication but that is different from them running their own auctions.

[Johnny630]

What if you want to collect and actually possess your own cards ? I’m sure you can have them sent to your house instead, just ask them.

The industry seems to be moving towards brokerage account buying and selling rather then Collecting. It’s a.. good I guess just not my cup of tea.

I’m sure PSA will gladly send you your cards instead of to Goldin Vault :-)

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

What if you want to collect and actually posses your own cards ? I’m sure you can have them sent to your house instead, just ask them.

The industry seems to be moving towards brokerage account buying and selling rather then Collecting. It’s a.. good I guess just not my cup of tea.

I’m sure PSA will gladly send you your cards instead of to Goldin Vault :-)

Free shipping if you send them to the Goldin vault!!!

And not free shipping to ship them to you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There is way too much outright fraud for me to get worked up about a well disclosed potential conflict of interest. IF Goldin Auctions has an inside track on favorable grading, and I say if, they are far from the only ones.

[sb1]

It is a blanket email sent to anyone that has submissions set to be finalized and shipped back to submitters. They are encouraging the submitter to instead submit them to their Vault. I received one as well, as I have two submissions at PSA about to finally be done and returned. My default address is still where they are going, you have to manually change to the Vault for the newly graded cards go to them.

I highly doubt they know the grades, and if they did they damn sure would not have emailed me, as mine are all mid-grade non-sports under the $199 level.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by sb1

It is a blanket email sent to anyone that has submissions set to be finalized and shipped back to submitters. They are encouraging the submitter to instead submit them to their Vault. I received one as well, as I have two submissions at PSA about to finally be done and returned. My default address is still where they are going, you have to manually change to the Vault for the newly graded cards go to them.

I highly doubt they know the grades, and if they did they damn sure would not have emailed me, as mine are all mid-grade non-sports under the $199 level.

I also have gotten multiple emails about the vault and new marketplace.

The cards they have of mine are literally worthless to anyone besides me…so yeah, obvious blanket email.

[jfkheat]

Nat Turner owns Collector's Universe, PSA, as well as Goldin Auctions.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by sb1

It is a blanket email sent to anyone that has submissions set to be finalized and shipped back to submitters. They are encouraging the submitter to instead submit them to their Vault. I received one as well, as I have two submissions at PSA about to finally be done and returned. My default address is still where they are going, you have to manually change to the Vault for the newly graded cards go to them.

I highly doubt they know the grades, and if they did they damn sure would not have emailed me, as mine are all mid-grade non-sports under the $199 level.

Scott,

You're absolutely correct that this was probably a blanket marketing email being sent out to everyone. But go back to what I originally said in post #2 about how for a TPG to truly be doing what they should, and projecting that aura of honesty and fairness in their work and grading, they need to exhibit and show a complete lack of bias and conflicts-of-interest in both fact AND APPEARANCE!!! The simple fact that the OP posted about the email and questioned the potential possibility for some implied grading favoritism that could arise from it, clearly demonstrates that at least one person has perceived that there may be some implied bias or conflict-of-interest that could be attributed to using someone's vault. And even if only one person, that is one person too many!

The simple fact that the OP posted that has probably gone ahead and spread the same question/thought now to others as well, that may not have been aware of or even thinking about this possibility before reading his post and this thread he started. I mean come on, how many threads and posts have we both seen on here where it is either subliminally, or even outright blatantly, put forth that certain "players" in the hobby are getting preferred treatment and grading that normal collectors/dealers are not given? This is just a logical extension of what is already suspected thinking by many in the hobby. Heck, there was even the recent thread putting forth the question/notion that some TPGs may purposely refuse to give out "10" ratings/grades to certain cards to artificially keep the condition rarity of those cards already graded as "10's" as they are, resulting in some stratospheric prices. If that is the case, that could/would potentially benefit other collectors/investors/dealers of those same cards, albeit in lesser conditions, as well. By artificially repressing the number of a particular card graded a "10", it allows for prices paid for those highest graded cards to be potentially higher than they would ever be if there were more "10's" of that card in the marketplace. And though not always a perfect measure or mechanism, the idea and concept that "all boats rise with the tide" is still in full force and effect as a carryover concept to many in the hobby from back in the days when it was initially ingrained in collector/dealer/investor minds that lower graded cards are typically priced as a percentage function of what that same card is worth at a much higher grade. Even though they may not always follow the old percentage patterns, you know damn well that some dealers and others will still push a higher price for their lower graded versions based off of those highest graded example prices when they set new sales records. And before you go saying that most people here on Net54 would never fall for that, you and I both know that the membership on Net54 comprises an extremely small percentage of the overall hobby community, and I'm talking about the hobby community as whole. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find that the active membership here on Net54 only comprises roughly the equivalent of pimple on an elephant's butt when it comes to illustrating how much of the hobby our active membership actually represents.

Quite honestly, in a perfect world, one would/should expect a TPG that was potentially accused/linked to even the appearance of such a perceived bias or conflict-of-interest would immediately jump on it and publicly deny and put to rest such a potential issue. But also thinking honestly and in the real world, with the potential and expectations for no actual retribution or negative consequences that ever seem to appear for any TPGs that exhibit even the slightest perceived appearance of such biases or conflicts-of-interest, I wouldn't be at all surprised if marketing departments for such TPGs didn't start high-fiving each other and breaking out the bottles to toast their good fortune. Without them doing anything that can potentially come back and be linked to them, they now have received the benefit of the implied notion that possibly, if someone having them grade cards for them agrees to now use their vault to store/handle those graded cards for them, the seed has been planted that they may receive higher grades for their cards than they maybe would have otherwise. And it doesn't really matter if it is actually true or not, the seed has already been planted in the hobby community.

Happy New Year by the way!

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by BobC

Scott,

You're absolutely correct that this was probably a blanket marketing email being sent out to everyone. But go back to what I originally said in post #2 about how for a TPG to truly be doing what they should, and projecting that aura of honesty and fairness in their work and grading, they need to exhibit and show a complete lack of bias and conflicts-of-interest in both fact AND APPEARANCE!!! The simple fact that the OP posted about the email and questioned the potential possibility for some implied grading favoritism that could arise from it, clearly demonstrates that at least one person has perceived that there may be some implied bias or conflict-of-interest that could be attributed to using someone's vault. And even if only one person, that is one person too many!

The simple fact that the OP posted that has probably gone ahead and spread the same question/thought now to others as well, that may not have been aware of or even thinking about this possibility before reading his post and this thread he started. I mean come on, how many threads and posts have we both seen on here where it is either subliminally, or even outright blatantly, put forth that certain "players" in the hobby are getting preferred treatment and grading that normal collectors/dealers are not given? This is just a logical extension of what is already suspected thinking by many in the hobby. Heck, there was even the recent thread putting forth the question/notion that some TPGs may purposely refuse to give out "10" ratings/grades to certain cards to artificially keep the condition rarity of those cards already graded as "10's" as they are, resulting in some stratospheric prices. If that is the case, that could/would potentially benefit other collectors/investors/dealers of those same cards, albeit in lesser conditions, as well. By artificially repressing the number of a particular card graded a "10", it allows for prices paid for those highest graded cards to be potentially higher than they would ever be if there were more "10's" of that card in the marketplace. And though not always a perfect measure or mechanism, the idea and concept that "all boats rise with the tide" is still in full force and effect as a carryover concept to many in the hobby from back in the days when it was initially ingrained in collector/dealer/investor minds that lower graded cards are typically priced as a percentage function of what that same card is worth at a much higher grade. Even though they may not always follow the old percentage patterns, you know damn well that some dealers and others will still push a higher price for their lower graded versions based off of those highest graded example prices when they set new sales records. And before you go saying that most people here on Net54 would never fall for that, you and I both know that the membership on Net54 comprises an extremely small percentage of the overall hobby community, and I'm talking about the hobby community as whole. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find that the active membership here on Net54 only comprises roughly the equivalent of pimple on an elephant's butt when it comes to illustrating how much of the hobby our active membership actually represents.

Quite honestly, in a perfect world, one would/should expect a TPG that was potentially accused/linked to even the appearance of such a perceived bias or conflict-of-interest would immediately jump on it and publicly deny and put to rest such a potential issue. But also thinking honestly and in the real world, with the potential and expectations for no actual retribution or negative consequences that ever seem to appear for any TPGs that exhibit even the slightest perceived appearance of such biases or conflicts-of-interest, I wouldn't be at all surprised if marketing departments for such TPGs didn't start high-fiving each other and breaking out the bottles to toast their good fortune. Without them doing anything that can potentially come back and be linked to them, they now have received the benefit of the implied notion that possibly, if someone having them grade cards for them agrees to now use their vault to store/handle those graded cards for them, the seed has been planted that they may receive higher grades for their cards than they maybe would have otherwise. And it doesn't really matter if it is actually true or not, the seed has already been planted in the hobby community.

Happy New Year by the way!

TLDR

Happy New Year to you too BobC!

[Fred]

Originally Posted by BobC

Scott,

You're absolutely correct that this was probably a blanket marketing email being sent out to everyone. But go back to what I originally said in post #2 about how for a TPG to truly be doing what they should, and projecting that aura of honesty and fairness in their work and grading, they need to exhibit and show a complete lack of bias and conflicts-of-interest in both fact AND APPEARANCE!!! The simple fact that the OP posted about the email and questioned the potential possibility for some implied grading favoritism that could arise from it, clearly demonstrates that at least one person has perceived that there may be some implied bias or conflict-of-interest that could be attributed to using someone's vault. And even if only one person, that is one person too many!

The simple fact that the OP posted that has probably gone ahead and spread the same question/thought now to others as well, that may not have been aware of or even thinking about this possibility before reading his post and this thread he started. I mean come on, how many threads and posts have we both seen on here where it is either subliminally, or even outright blatantly, put forth that certain "players" in the hobby are getting preferred treatment and grading that normal collectors/dealers are not given? This is just a logical extension of what is already suspected thinking by many in the hobby. Heck, there was even the recent thread putting forth the question/notion that some TPGs may purposely refuse to give out "10" ratings/grades to certain cards to artificially keep the condition rarity of those cards already graded as "10's" as they are, resulting in some stratospheric prices. If that is the case, that could/would potentially benefit other collectors/investors/dealers of those same cards, albeit in lesser conditions, as well. By artificially repressing the number of a particular card graded a "10", it allows for prices paid for those highest graded cards to be potentially higher than they would ever be if there were more "10's" of that card in the marketplace. And though not always a perfect measure or mechanism, the idea and concept that "all boats rise with the tide" is still in full force and effect as a carryover concept to many in the hobby from back in the days when it was initially ingrained in collector/dealer/investor minds that lower graded cards are typically priced as a percentage function of what that same card is worth at a much higher grade. Even though they may not always follow the old percentage patterns, you know damn well that some dealers and others will still push a higher price for their lower graded versions based off of those highest graded example prices when they set new sales records. And before you go saying that most people here on Net54 would never fall for that, you and I both know that the membership on Net54 comprises an extremely small percentage of the overall hobby community, and I'm talking about the hobby community as whole. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find that the active membership here on Net54 only comprises roughly the equivalent of pimple on an elephant's butt when it comes to illustrating how much of the hobby our active membership actually represents.

Quite honestly, in a perfect world, one would/should expect a TPG that was potentially accused/linked to even the appearance of such a perceived bias or conflict-of-interest would immediately jump on it and publicly deny and put to rest such a potential issue. But also thinking honestly and in the real world, with the potential and expectations for no actual retribution or negative consequences that ever seem to appear for any TPGs that exhibit even the slightest perceived appearance of such biases or conflicts-of-interest, I wouldn't be at all surprised if marketing departments for such TPGs didn't start high-fiving each other and breaking out the bottles to toast their good fortune. Without them doing anything that can potentially come back and be linked to them, they now have received the benefit of the implied notion that possibly, if someone having them grade cards for them agrees to now use their vault to store/handle those graded cards for them, the seed has been planted that they may receive higher grades for their cards than they maybe would have otherwise. And it doesn't really matter if it is actually true or not, the seed has already been planted in the hobby community.

Happy New Year by the way!

I had to look up TLDR, ha!

In summary - sounds like what is being imparted is that TPGs should remain as neutral as possible with no affiliation to AHs, etc. It's has more to do with optics/perception of possible impropriety/bias.

Me - I'm a collector and I don't see how there's an advantage to keeping my stuff locked in someone else's vault. If the reason for a purchase and grading is to sell cards through the Goldin network, then I can kind of understand this strategy, but for purist collectors/hobbyist, I just don't see the reason to stuff it in someone else's vault. Call me crazy...

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Fred

I had to look up TLDR, ha!

In summary - sounds like what is being imparted is that TPGs should remain as neutral as possible with no affiliation to AHs, etc. It's has more to do with optics/perception of possible impropriety/bias.

Me - I'm a collector and I don't see how there's an advantage to keeping my stuff locked in someone else's vault. If the reason for a purchase and grading is to sell cards through the Goldin network, then I can kind of understand this strategy, but for purist collectors/hobbyist, I just don't see the reason to stuff it in someone else's vault. Call me crazy...

Fully agree.

And what you are paying for when you have a card graded is an honest, unbiased, consistent review and grading of your card. The simple fact that most TPGs charge contingent fees for the grading of cards based on their value, is in and of itself a totally inappropriate, biased, conflict-of-interest that should not exist in the service of rendering opinions on the condition of cards. I readily admit that having been a CPA for decades, I am biased as to what a company that is supposed to be rendering honest, consistent, services and opinions as to the shape or condition of something they were hired to put forth their opinion on. Based on what I am used to seeing and dealing with as a CPA, the entire TPG industry is a blatant joke when it comes to even trying to look like they are doing what they should be doing.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by BobC

Fully agree.

And what you are paying for when you have a card graded is an honest, unbiased, consistent review and grading of your card. The simple fact that most TPGs charge contingent fees for the grading of cards based on their value, is in and of itself a totally inappropriate, biased, conflict-of-interest that should not exist in the service of rendering opinions on the condition of cards. I readily admit that having been a CPA for decades, I am biased as to what a company that is supposed to be rendering honest, consistent, services and opinions as to the shape or condition of something they were hired to put forth their opinion on. Based on what I am used to seeing and dealing with as a CPA, the entire TPG industry is a blatant joke when it comes to even trying to look like they are doing what they should be doing.

Well said and I 100% agree.

From a business standpoint - 1) They can apparently get away with it and 2) They are trying to drive additional business to their sister company

Isn't something similar on a larger scale what Fanatics is planning?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by BobC

Fully agree.

And what you are paying for when you have a card graded is an honest, unbiased, consistent review and grading of your card. The simple fact that most TPGs charge contingent fees for the grading of cards based on their value, is in and of itself a totally inappropriate, biased, conflict-of-interest that should not exist in the service of rendering opinions on the condition of cards. I readily admit that having been a CPA for decades, I am biased as to what a company that is supposed to be rendering honest, consistent, services and opinions as to the shape or condition of something they were hired to put forth their opinion on. Based on what I am used to seeing and dealing with as a CPA, the entire TPG industry is a blatant joke when it comes to even trying to look like they are doing what they should be doing.

The fees charged for potential value based on the grade has always perplexed me.

If those fees are charged then the TPG makes more money on a higher graded card - WHY?

The only reason I could see for an increased fee is to pay for shipping insurance when the card is returned to the submitter.

If the TPG claims the fee schedule is based on value is to protect themselves from having to "reimburse a collector because and encapsulated card was a fake or incorrectly graded" then they need to look at their graders and either get rid of the graders that have no clue what they're doing or offer training to bring greater consistency to the grading process. Also, isn't one of the reasons to send cards in for grading to ensure the card is not a fake/reprint or allow their "expertise" in grading to determine if a card is altered?

Sorry - continue on with the thread being about Goldin and PSA.

[chjh]

The Hobby continues to evolve in a good way.

1. Buy and sell cards at the local strip mall
2. Online auction companies (HA, MHCC, ML, etc)
3. Online auction companies + Vault Services (PWCC)
4. Online Auction companies + CardLadder + Value Services (Collectors Holdings)

[troutbum97]

DELETE - double post