Star BB Club CdV

[oldjudge]

I just picked up this CdV from my friend Gary (thanks Gary). The card is identified on the back as the Star BB Club. However, in the mid to late 1860s (when I think this is from) there were five teams with the exact name of the Star BB Club (from Brooklyn, New Brunswick, NJ, Sunbury, PA, Wakefield, RI, and Virden, IL). There are also several teams named Stars, Southern Stars, etc. Can anyone shed some light as to who the team might be? It is a unique image, as the team seems to be posing on their playing field, as opposed to the typical indoor shot. They also seem to be a serious team as they are posed with eight bats (a lot for a team at that time to own) and all the uniforms are exact matches. The big building in the back looks like some type of factory. Perhaps this is a clue. Thanks for any help that can be offered!

[Leon]

I have no information and can't offer help I just want to say I love that image.

[judsonhamlin]

Great image. I can rule out New Brunswick, NJ, if that helps.

[Econteachert205]

Very unlikely to be Wakefield ri

[trdcrdkid]

Jay --

This photo appears on page 30 of the Spring 1984 issue of the SABR publication "The National Pastime", a pictorial issue on Baseball in the Nineteenth Century. There it is identified as "two Brooklyn Stars, ca. 1870, of whom the one on the right is Candy Cummings". The uniforms look almost identical to the ones in your picture, albeit with black pants rather than white, though I don't know how common such elements might have been for clubs with the "Star" name. But that's my best guess. The 2013 book "Base Ball Founders" has a 23-page history of the Star Base Ball Club of Brooklyn, but without any pictures, alas.

[oldjudge]

Thanks guys! The geography reminds me of my drives through Pennsylvania so I will take a shot with the local historical society. I'll let you know if I make any progress.

[h2oya311]

The stars are upside down in David's image, but right side up in Jay's. I think they are different teams, personally. Plus the issue with the pants. Just my observation, but I love the image(s)...

[sago]

I think the mountains in the background rule out Brooklyn. It looks as if the photos were taken at a quarry or mine of some sort.

[oldjudge]

Interestingly, if you look between the fourth and fifth players there appears to be a policeman on the "field" level. I agree that it looks like a quarry or an open pit mine that possibly was smoothed out to use as a field. The factory and other buildings on the upper level might have been used to process what came from the most mine. I know that limestone and coal came from the area. It doesn't look like coal though.

[oldjudge]

After a little research the building on the upper level looks similar to some images I have found of a smelter. Virden, IL was a mining area, but for only coal, as far as I can tell. Sunbury, PA had coal, but also limestone, and more importantly lead and zinc, both of which are smelted. The picture below is of a smelter. The tall smokestack is what struck me.

[oldjudge]

Compare it to the CdV

[yoyot1]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

The stars are upside down in David's image, but right side up in Jay's. I think they are different teams, personally. Plus the issue with the pants. Just my observation, but I love the image(s)...

It looks like the 3rd, 6th, and 9th stars are upside down in the CdV as well. Maybe the 1st as well.

[the-illini]

As an Illinois resident Jay, I can tell you that it is likely not Virden. It is just south of the state capital of Springfield and that area would not have a rolling hill of that size like the one you see in the CdV

There was a California CDV that was sold at auction a year or so ago possibly identified as the Eureka Blue Stars ca. 1880's (if memory serves me). I agree with the mining theory as the fans seem to be standing on slag heaps, and the baseball diamond looks like it was strip mined to bedrock, or a good sized cut. Not saying it is California, but it may be another possibility.

Here's the link to the California CDV with players in uniforms. Obviously the players in your photo & this one have different colored ballcaps: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=183660&page=3

[JustinD]

I did an image search based on the original REA auction in 2008 for this card and really found nothing -

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...2008/1163.html

One nice lead I have is from a very nicely written thesis detailing the Montana Mines leagues called "Joy in Minersville" located here -

http://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/view...10&context=etd

So many teams used the name "stars" in the 1800's it could be close to impossible to locate. However, the reference used in this paper on page 69 is 143 "SC 783, Star Baseball Club Records, Montana Historical Society Archives, Helena Montana."

If you really want to dig, you may want to see if they have any photos for comparison. The name and the fact they were in a mine league is a good start.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

Jay --

This photo appears on page 30 of the Spring 1984 issue of the SABR publication "The National Pastime", a pictorial issue on Baseball in the Nineteenth Century. There it is identified as "two Brooklyn Stars, ca. 1870, of whom the one on the right is Candy Cummings". The uniforms look almost identical to the ones in your picture, albeit with black pants rather than white, though I don't know how common such elements might have been for clubs with the "Star" name. But that's my best guess. The 2013 book "Base Ball Founders" has a 23-page history of the Star Base Ball Club of Brooklyn, but without any pictures, alas.

FWIW, It is well known that this guy is absolutely not Candy Cummings. That issue of "The National Pastime" has quite a few ID errors, all from the same source.

[/quote]

[oldjudge]

I thought I would update the thread. Of the five possible "Star BB Club" locations, the one that seemed the most promising was the Sunbury, PA one. With that in mind I contacted the Northumberland County Historical Society; Northumberland is the county that Sunbury is in. I spoke to a very nice gentleman, explained what I was trying to identify, and sent him an image of the CdV. He made copies and distributed ithem to all the members of the Board of Directors of the historical society. The board studied and discussed the image and the news was good:

" Consensus of the Sunbury residents on our board is that the photo was taken in Sunbury and they believe the building in the background is the old railroad roundhouse."


So, I guess that what we have is the Star BB Club of Sunbury, PA

[cozmokramer]

I don't have anything about identification to add but MUST say that once again the knowledge, helpfulness and investigative work by the members of net54 simply continues to amaze me.

Jay... Did the board by any chance share back photos of the old railroad roundhouse for comparison?

[oldjudge]

Eric--they did not, but I have asked for it.

[ramram]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I thought I would update the thread. Of the five possible "Star BB Club" locations, the one that seemed the most promising was the Sunbury, PA one. With that in mind I contacted the Northumberland County Historical Society; Northumberland is the county that Sunbury is in. I spoke to a very nice gentleman, explained what I was trying to identify, and sent him an image of the CdV. He made copies and distributed ithem to all the members of the Board of Directors of the historical society. The board studied and discussed the image and the news was good:

" Consensus of the Sunbury residents on our board is that the photo was taken in Sunbury and they believe the building in the background is the old railroad roundhouse."


So, I guess that what we have is the Star BB Club of Sunbury, PA

I'm perplexed, a roundhouse did not need or have a smoke stack. It absolutely looks like a mining location, with the spoil piles, etc, but that building looks nothing like a roundhouse.

Rob M.

[oldjudge]

I found this on line. It's from 40 years later (1907). It's not the same, but similar. Over the 40 years the building could have had some significant makeovers

[btcarfagno]

The unusual top to the large smokestack looks like a match, as do the myriad chimneys throughout the building or buildings.

Tom C

[smokelessjoe]

Here is an image I found online with the following notes: Striking workers during the violent year of 1877 often targeted the key properties of companies against which they were striking for arson and sabotage. The Round House at Pittsburgh was a hub of railroad activity and one of the company's most expensive properties.

[smokelessjoe]

Not sure if these are of any help being that its pittsburgh but still a very intriguing set of photos picturing the destruction. Check out this link for more views.

http://antiquephotographics.com/ster...-railroad-war/

[mzm55]

Hi Jay,

Here is some research I did this afternoon on your CDV in response to the historical society's determination. All research I do is through primary materials.

The Star Base Ball Club of Sunbury was first organized in April 1866 and played until at least 1871. The team played on a baseball ground located near the Northern Central Railroad Engine House (N.C.R.R.), “near the machine shops of the of the N.C.R.R.”

Records of the team’s existence between mid-1866 and 1871 are very sparse, if not non-existent. This paucity may be due to The Star Club’s merger with the Susquehanna Club in June 1866. According to the Sunbury American, “The Star Club of this place, has been merged into the Susquehanna Club…The Susquehanna has the materials to make a first-class club…”

A roster posted on May 5, 1866 shows the short-lived team's lineup as the following:

L. Dewart, C.
J. Malone, P.
A. Weaver, 1 b.
A. F. Clapp 2 b.
N. U. Fisher, 3 b.
H. Hourne l. f.
D. Irvin, c. f.
B. Rodrigue, r.f.

Newspaper articles begin referencing the club, again, in 1871. Through these accounts we are exposed to a very successful team. For example, on July 8, 1871 the Star Club defeated the Trevorton Club “ As usual the Star Club came off the victors.” Additionally, the Star Club continued to play at a field located at the Central Railroad Engine House.

In early August the 1871 Star Club played for the championship of Northumberland county against the Union Club of Watsontown at the Central Railroad field. During the first game the Star Club defeated the Union club in 1 hour and 15 minutes and by 16 runs, 27-11. The teams roster was as follows:

Smick, c
Bucher, p
Hopper 1st b
P. Krohn, 2d b
Welker, 3d b
Reese s. s
Eisley l.f.
R. Krohn c. f
Neuer, r.f.

This all considered, in conjunction with the Sunbury Historical Society’s assertion that the image in the baseball CDV is indeed railway grounds in Sunbury, demonstrates that the team pictured in the CDV is very likely the 1866 or 1871 Star Club of Sunbury, PA. Moreover, the creation of a CDV may have been made in lieu the team’s victorious record in 1871. While I do not know if the Star Club did indeed win the championship, they at least played a full season. In total, I am leaning towards the CDV being the 1871 Star Club.

Additionally, this research is not utterly complete. While I assert no records exist of this team between mid 1866 and the start of 1871, records may exist and my research may be lacking. The above blurb is strictly based on my findings so far.

Best,

Zach

[oldjudge]

Thanks Zach, that is great research. Gary had thought that the CdV was probably late 1860s, so we are all in the same time frame. If we call it circ.-1870 we are probably fine. It's great that our combined efforts have unearthed something interesting.

[smokelessjoe]

Hi Jay,

You state that it is identified as the Star Club on the back, would you mind posting a scan of the back?

Shawn

[ramram]

I don't think the knickers started showing up until the late 1860's which would help support the c. 1870 time frame.

Rob M.

[oldjudge]

Shawn--it is written in pencil on the back

[Leon]

Originally Posted by mzm55

Hi Jay,

Here is some research I did this afternoon on your CDV in response to the historical society's determination. All research I do is through primary materials.

The Star Base Ball Club of Sunbury was first organized in April 1866 and played until at least 1871. The team played on a baseball ground located near the Northern Central Railroad Engine House (N.C.R.R.), “near the machine shops of the of the N.C.R.R.”

Records of the team’s existence between mid-1866 and 1871 are very sparse, if not non-existent. This paucity may be due to The Star Club’s merger with the Susquehanna Club in June 1866. According to the Sunbury American, “The Star Club of this place, has been merged into the Susquehanna Club…The Susquehanna has the materials to make a first-class club…”

A roster posted on May 5, 1866 shows the short-lived team's lineup as the following:

L. Dewart, C.
J. Malone, P.
A. Weaver, 1 b.
A. F. Clapp 2 b.
N. U. Fisher, 3 b.
H. Hourne l. f.
D. Irvin, c. f.
B. Rodrigue, r.f.

Newspaper articles begin referencing the club, again, in 1871. Through these accounts we are exposed to a very successful team. For example, on July 8, 1871 the Star Club defeated the Trevorton Club “ As usual the Star Club came off the victors.” Additionally, the Star Club continued to play at a field located at the Central Railroad Engine House.

In early August the 1871 Star Club played for the championship of Northumberland county against the Union Club of Watsontown at the Central Railroad field. During the first game the Star Club defeated the Union club in 1 hour and 15 minutes and by 16 runs, 27-11. The teams roster was as follows:

Smick, c
Bucher, p
Hopper 1st b
P. Krohn, 2d b
Welker, 3d b
Reese s. s
Eisley l.f.
R. Krohn c. f
Neuer, r.f.

This all considered, in conjunction with the Sunbury Historical Society’s assertion that the image in the baseball CDV is indeed railway grounds in Sunbury, demonstrates that the team pictured in the CDV is very likely the 1866 or 1871 Star Club of Sunbury, PA. Moreover, the creation of a CDV may have been made in lieu the team’s victorious record in 1871. While I do not know if the Star Club did indeed win the championship, they at least played a full season. In total, I am leaning towards the CDV being the 1871 Star Club.

Additionally, this research is not utterly complete. While I assert no records exist of this team between mid 1866 and the start of 1871, records may exist and my research may be lacking. The above blurb is strictly based on my findings so far.

Best,

Zach

Nice research Zach. Hope all is well your way!!

And Jay, I have an eraser if you don't want that pesky writing on the back .

[GaryPassamonte]

Great research, Zach.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ramram

I'm perplexed, a roundhouse did not need or have a smoke stack. It absolutely looks like a mining location, with the spoil piles, etc, but that building looks nothing like a roundhouse.

Rob M.

Many buildings at the time had smokestacks, especially if they were outside urban areas.

The smokestack would have been from the steam plant, which provided both heat for the building and power for any powered machinery they had.
Heat for the roundhouse would have taken a lot of steam considering the size of those buildings. You really don't want the boilers of the engines feeezing and getting damaged. Some places also did repairs in the same building and could have used steam powered cranes and other tools.

And being a railroad they probably had a coal fired steam plant. So rather than spoil piles those would be cinder piles for the cinders from the coal plant as well as from the engines.

One of our local land marks was essentially destroyed by lightning late last year. The Hood smokestack was 100 feet tall, and the company made patent medicines.
http://lifefromtheroots.blogspot.com...lowell_22.html

Steve B

[oldjudge]

Leon-Thank goodness no one used that eraser in the past, or we never would have figured out who the team was.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Leon-Thank goodness no one used that eraser in the past, or we never would have figured out who the team was.

I have always said that if the marks are/look period we should consider leaving them. I have left quite a few alone (as I would have the writing on that beauty too, of course).....

[GaryPassamonte]

An astute friend has brought to my attention the fact that one of the players on the team has an eagle and not a star on his jersey. Does anyone have any ideas about this? The uniforms are alike other than the eagle being on one jersey.