T206 Wagner value after Mastro confesses to cutting it

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by pherbener

I agree!!

Megadeath >>>>>>>>>>>>>Metallica!!

SGC>>>>>>>>>>>PSA

While I tend to prefer SGC, I shall offer this reply to your post:

Metallica, in the 80's, especially with Cliff > Megadeth > Metallica light (after the Black Album.)

Just my two cents. After all, this is quite subjective.

Best regards,

Eric

[Bpm0014]

Today, wouldn't the PSA 8 Wagner be worth more on an uncut sheet??

[CW]

I could be wrong, but I don't believe the Wagner was cut from an uncut sheet. Instead, it was one of those greatly oversized T206s you see with the big borders, and Mastro merely trimmed it down from that form. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.

[midwaylandscaping]

Originally Posted by CW

I was toying around with some ideas for a custom t-shirt for last year's national convention in Cleveland. I ultimately went with a design based on my avatar, but this was one I was contemplating and scrapped...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CW

I could be wrong, but I don't believe the Wagner was cut from an uncut sheet. Instead, it was one of those greatly oversized T206s you see with the big borders, and Mastro merely trimmed it down from that form. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.

Correction. As I understand it the pre-Mastro card was sheet cut, from a proof sheet. I don't believe any Piedmont back Wagners are believed to have been factory cut and inserted into packs.

[CW]

Ah, gotcha, Peter. I guess I was making my assumption off the picture from that book about the card (titled "The Card"?) which showed it in its "pre-trimmed" state. That image showed it as only having big borders and not part of a sheet. Corrected, I stand.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_62.html

[midwaylandscaping]

Sheet cut Wagners, okay
God forbid someone try sneak a Patrick Roy OPC sheet cut RC by PSA however. The hobby loses it mind....

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Correction. As I understand it the pre-Mastro card was sheet cut, from a proof sheet. I don't believe any Piedmont back Wagners are believed to have been factory cut and inserted into packs.

This is my understanding also. It's been a matter of years since I read the book, "The Card," but believe this issue is also discussed therein. As I recall, someone other than Mastro originally cut the card from the sheet, and the latter cleaned up the cut.

Best always,

Larry

[BobbyVCP]

I don't think the value of the card matters because it is in the hands of a person that is not going to part with it for a very long time. It will be up to his children or grand children many years from now to decide to keep or sell.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by mark evans

The card is certainly notorious, that is unassailable. But, notoriety cuts both ways. I can't agree that the fact of its being trimmed is beside the point. To me (who has no serious money so take these views for what they're worth), much of the card's value pre-Mastro prosecution was the public perception that the card had survived for over 100 years in nearly pristine condition. Of course, it did but not having been issued in a pack and handled by folks through the years like the other Wagners. Instead, all now know that the card was preserved on a sheet until the 70s when Mastro and others realized they were sitting on a goldmine, so to speak. So, comparing it to other Wagner cards is really inapt. It truly is unique but, now that its notorious history is on the public record, I continue to believe its value will taper off over time.

It was fairly well-known or highly suspected that the card had been trimmed since at least the mid-'90's. I can recall a number of conversations I had with various dealers to that effect after the Gretzky/McNall purchase.

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

It was fairly well-known or highly suspected that the card had been trimmed since at least the mid-'90's. I can recall a number of conversations I had with various dealers to that effect after the Gretsky/McNall purchase.

Larry

Yup. It was strongly suspected even at the time of the Copeland auction in 1991.

[1880nonsports]

quite a few things were thought to have been altered from that collection as expressed to me at the time by a couple of hobby friends....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

quite a few things were thought to have been altered from that collection as expressed to me at the time by a couple of hobby friends....

Yes, a good part of it allegedly came from Mastro so no surprise there.

[xplainer]

So correct me if I'm wrong, this card was cut from a sheet - which makes it a "scrap" in the collecting world. Then, it was trimmed later, and submitted to PSA as 00000001 (or there abouts). It resulted in a PSA 8. Is that it in a nutshell?
I mean, PSA is constructed on this lie? Please respond....because I'd like to know.

If that is true, what has Joe O said about this? Getting in late I know, But I (and others) would like to know info on this.

Please take and run.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I believe what you said is correct as to the chronology. In 2013 David Hall was reported to have stated at a PSA lunch that he examined the card personally in 1991 and that it was not trimmed. I don't know what Joe has said, or if PSA has said anything subsequent to 2013.

One somewhat unfortunate part of the saga is that Alan Ray, who sold the card to Mastro, apparently has refused to give any information about where HE got it, so the provenance stops back in 1985 or so.

[Leon]

I think Joe O was playing college baseball about the time the Wags was graded. I doubt he would comment too much and would leave it to his boss (Hall)....and count me in the group that doesn't think the card has lost value. We'll never know unless it's sold again though.

Originally Posted by xplainer

So correct me if I'm wrong, this card was cut from a sheet - which makes it a "scrap" in the collecting world. Then, it was trimmed later, and submitted to PSA as 00000001 (or there abouts). It resulted in a PSA 8. Is that it in a nutshell?
I mean, PSA is constructed on this lie? Please respond....because I'd like to know.

If that is true, what has Joe O said about this? Getting in late I know, But I (and others) would like to know info on this.

Please take and run.

[bosoxphan]

Makes you wonder how many of the high grade pre war cards are altered. Pretty high percentage i'd say. Like many, i don't remember this many high grade cards back in the day of collecting.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by bosoxphan

Makes you wonder how many of the high grade pre war cards are altered. Pretty high percentage i'd say. Like many, i don't remember this many high grade cards back in the day of collecting.

Good question. I'd speculate that roughly 75% of anything graded higher than a 6 is messed with, but obviously opinions are going to swing drastically on this.

[travrosty]

orlando is on record saying the same thing hall said, that psa regards it as not being trimmed.

[drcy]

Just to be technical, that a card is cut from a sheet (later on) doesn't automatically make it a scrap. Scrap cards, or at least the sheets as the whole, have printing defect and I'm not aware the Wagner has a printing defect. There is a scrap Wagner out there, though-- oversized and with a slight dirty ghost overprint on the front.

I think the whole high grade graded card of the hobby is stupidity and silliness. But that's just my opinion. I too wonder how many of the card have been altered. If you told to a non-collector the story of high grade card collecting-- with alterations, ridiculous prices, resubmissions for better grades, buying the label--, they'd think it's complete group stupidity-- and they'd be right.

I don't think the value of that Wagner will go down, in part because it's fame, anomaly and because it likely being trimmed has been the worst kept secret for years.

[bosoxphan]

Maybe Mastro has a video of him cutting it. Cause apparently his word under oath isnt enough for PSA to admit they screwed up. Or more likely they didnt screw up.

[Section103]

So long as a card is real and matches within size tolerances, any card not cut at the factory and subsequently cut later should be graded and labeled "hand cut" in my opinion.