Bill Mastro -- What He Really Thinks of His Hobby Friends

[calvindog]

In 2008, Mastro was taped saying the following to a Confidential Witness about the cards he was selling:

Mastro: I really don’t give a shit if the stuff’s real or not. Okay. I don’t care if its trimmed. I don’t care if it’s real. I, if I look at it and I think it’s real, I want the authenticators to look at it and think it’s real. You think that all these PSA cards we're auctioning are, aren’t unaltered? They’re all altered. The alternation going on, it is unbelievable in our hobby right now. Okay. There’s not a sheet that gets auctioned off that isn’t cut up. Every sheets getting cut up. Goudy sheets, Diamond Star sheets, basketball sheets, every sheet you see in the auction is being bought by someone who is cutting them up.

He's being sentenced in a week and his attorneys are asking for a probationary sentence. Marshall Fogel and James Spence wrote love letters to the Court about what a swell guy he is.

[DeanH3]

Jeff, I appreciate you keeping this issue at the forefront. Although I've never bid in any of Mastro's auctions, I realize it still impacts me in some way or another. I believe many collectors, like myself, would be left in the dark without the exposure you continually bring. Thanks and kudos for your efforts.

[Rob D.]

Prediction: Jeff's post will spark responses of outrage and condemnation -- and, of course, the tiresome devil's advocate position.

Sadly, what it won't produce is one extra letter written to the judge.

R0b D3w0lf

[HRBAKER]

Yeah, but I never paid more than I was willing to pay, cough, cough.

[Peter_Spaeth]

According to Lew Lipset's 2013 letter, Mastro's "tendency to trim cards was well-known in the hobby" back in the day. Lew also quotes Mastro as saying "I will do anything to improve the appearance of any item or card." Docket Entry 114 for those keeping score. So the attitude expressed in this transcription is unfortunately not surprising.

I would like to know who is buying and trimming these sheets. Did Mastro speak to that? Can you tell us? I would think it's pretty tough to reproduce a factory cut, but maybe not?

[wonkaticket]

Between helping out at the church, sponsoring alcoholics, volunteering at the soup kitchen etc. how did Bill find the time to take advantage of his customers?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Moved to other thread so as not to hijack this one.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Between helping out at the church, sponsoring alcoholics, volunteering at the soup kitchen etc. how did Bill find the time to take advantage of his customers?

Paper cutter in the church basement is my guess. Easy to run down there when on a break from soup ladling.

[calvindog]

When Bill wasn't suffering from painful urination (yes, he mentioned that in his request for leniency) he was shill bidding like a madman. In the 12 auctions after April of 2007 -- after he learned he was under FBI investigation -- Mastro shill bid in over 1300 lots. One can only imagine how much fraud was going on before he found out the feds were on to him. Yet he argues in his sentencing memo that his shill bidding was "statistically infrequent."

[Peter_Spaeth]

According to Mastro's lawyers:
In addition to the relatively small average
pecuniary impact, Bill’s offense conduct touched a very small percentage of the auction house’s
total business: approximately 1% of the total lots sold by Mastro Auctions over 13 years, and a
fraction of its customer base. Bill’s misconduct, though it extended over a period of years, was
not systematic or, as numerous witnesses attest, characteristic of his business practice.

[judsonhamlin]

Originally Posted by calvindog

When Bill wasn't suffering from painful urination (yes, he mentioned that in his request for leniency) he was shill bidding like a madman. In the 12 auctions after April of 2007 -- after he learned he was under FBI investigation -- Mastro shill bid in over 1300 lots. One can only imagine how much fraud was going on before he found out the feds were on to him. Yet he argues in his sentencing memo that his shill bidding was "statistically infrequent."

Well there you go! "Your Honor, of all the people my client has met in his life, he has only killed one. That is statistically infrequent enough to be almost zero, and therefore a nullity". I need to remember that one. Basically calling all of it a rounding error. Great, just great.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

When Bill wasn't suffering from painful urination (yes, he mentioned that in his request for leniency) he was shill bidding like a madman. In the 12 auctions after April of 2007 -- after he learned he was under FBI investigation -- Mastro shill bid in over 1300 lots. One can only imagine how much fraud was going on before he found out the feds were on to him. Yet he argues in his sentencing memo that his shill bidding was "statistically infrequent."

Are his lawyers misrepresenting the facts? Is there some technical or definitional issue that explains the discrepancy between their numbers and the ones you mention? It seems hard to reconcile. 1300 lots in 12 auctions can't be less than 1 percent can it?

[Orioles1954]

Now I know why there are so many ultra high-grade Diamond Stars cards floating around....

[conor912]

This is the main reason I don't buy prewar nicer than ex. I find it virtually impossible to believe that little pieces of cardboard that had zero monetary value for the first 40+ years of their existence could survive in that nice of condition.

As long as people keep spending 1000x more on a PSA 9 than they would on the same exact same card raw, this behavior will never end. The hobby brings it on itself, which is why the Feds just sit back and laugh at it. When a prewar sheet is worth more cut up and slabbed than it is whole, there is a serious problem.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Are his lawyers misrepresenting the facts? Is there some technical or definitional issue that explains the discrepancy between their numbers and the ones you mention? It seems hard to reconcile. 1300 lots in 12 auctions can't be less than 1 percent can it?

To Bill Mastro, 1300 shilled lots in 12 auctions is "statistically infrequent." If there are three lots in those 12 auctions which were NOT shilled he would also claim that the shilling was "statistically infrequent." Basically he wants credit for not shilling lots in any auctions in which he destroyed the bidding records -- because there was evidence of him shilling the lots.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by conor912

This is the main reason I don't buy prewar nicer than ex. I find it virtually impossible to believe that little pieces of cardboard that had zero monetary value for the first 40+ years of their existence could survive in that nice of condition.

As long as people keep spending 1000x more on a PSA 9 than they would on the same exact same card raw, this behavior will never end. The hobby brings it on itself, which is why the Feds just sit back and laugh at it. When a prewar sheet is worth more cut up and slabbed than it is whole, there is a serious problem.

Many otherwise intelligent, successful people seem to leave their critical thinking behind them when it comes to cards, memorabilia, etc. Then again, as long as others do the same, the cards appreciate in value whether altered or not, so what difference does it make?

[Rob D.]

There it is, right on cue.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jeff what did you think of the Government's memorandum? I don't have experience in this area, but it seemed, what's the right word, somewhat subdued?

[SMPEP]

But he's right on one thing - there is rampant fraud (trimming, alteration, cutting of sheets) in high grade cards. I seriously don't understand why anyone wants them. I see a PSA 8, 9, 10 and think - fraud. Either it's a doctored card or a grade given to the favorite insiders of PSA/SGC.

The market place dictates the prices. I just don't understand why deep pocket collectors are willing to pay a premium for a card that is almost certainly a lie.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

But he's right on one thing - there is rampant fraud (trimming, alteration, cutting of sheets) in high grade cards. I seriously don't understand why anyone wants them. I see a PSA 8, 9, 10 and think - fraud. Either it's a doctored card or a grade given to the favorite insiders of PSA/SGC.

The market place dictates the prices. I just don't understand why deep pocket collectors are willing to pay a premium for a card that is almost certainly a lie.

Three reasons.
1. They are willfully blind to what is going on.
2. They look pretty.
3. Ego.

I suppose there is a fourth, which I alluded to before, as long as the market overall doesn't care, the cards are for the most part good investments.

[SMPEP]

I think you're right Peter. But I don't get #1 (you should always know what you're buying - especially if you spend that kind of money) and #3 (there are other things you can buy for your ego - and to my mind, many of those are WAY more impressive than owning a psa 10 Brett rc versus owning a PSA 7 Brett rc).

I think #4 (the investment point) is a self-fulling myth.

Everyone on this board is telling everyone they meet - buy the nicest conditioned card you can find because you'll make money when you resell it. I get it. The dealers have sold this line for a long time - because they have to make a profit so they can eat. And it has worked for them because they have always found the greater fool. But why deep-pocketed people fall for this line is strange to me. Essentially they are selling a ponzi scheme. Yes, you make money up until the point comes that the greater fool/new "investor" cannot be found. And it will only take the departure of a few deep-pockets to bring it crashing down on the last card holder.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's the same reason people fall for all the fake game-used crap. They WANT to believe it's real. So critical thinking they might apply in other areas of life is out the window. Card doctors and their dealer enablers figured out this psychology long ago.

Re 3, I can only refer you to the set registry, if you want to understand ego.

[brewing]

Thank you Jeff, Peter, and others that expose the fraudsters in our hobby.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by brewing

Thank you Jeff, Peter, and others that expose the fraudsters in our hobby.

+1. Thanks for all you do, Peter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Rob I am SO glad you were reinstated.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

so what difference does it make?

To the guys buying those cards, no difference whatsoever. They can throw their money wherever they want. I completely agree that ego and delusion are the biggest forces at play here. It's really mind-blowing.

I guess the biggest point I wanted to make was about the sheets referred to in the OP. The hobby has put more value on the individual cards with razor edges and corners than it does on the rare hobby artifacts that are pre-war uncut sheets. It's just sad, really. I personally like some age/wear on my cards, but to each his own.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by conor912

This is the main reason I don't buy prewar nicer than ex. I find it virtually impossible to believe that little pieces of cardboard that had zero monetary value for the first 40+ years of their existence could survive in that nice of condition.

As long as people keep spending 1000x more on a PSA 9 than they would on the same exact same card raw, this behavior will never end. The hobby brings it on itself, which is why the Feds just sit back and laugh at it. When a prewar sheet is worth more cut up and slabbed than it is whole, there is a serious problem.

+1 to the nth degree!!!

Highest regards,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Three reasons.
1. They are willfully blind to what is going on.
2. They look pretty.
3. Ego.

I suppose there is a fourth, which I alluded to before, as long as the market overall doesn't care, the cards are for the most part good investments.

I think you hit the nail precisely on the head, Peter--absolutely right on!

Best wishes,

Larry

[Rickyy]

I guess the concept of materiality in this case is immaterial.

Ricky Y

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by calvindog

In 2008, Mastro was taped saying the following to a Confidential Witness about the cards he was selling:

Mastro: I really don’t give a shit if the stuff’s real or not. Okay. I don’t care if its trimmed. I don’t care if it’s real. I, if I look at it and I think it’s real, I want the authenticators to look at it and think it’s real. You think that all these PSA cards we're auctioning are, aren’t unaltered? They’re all altered. The alternation going on, it is unbelievable in our hobby right now. Okay. There’s not a sheet that gets auctioned off that isn’t cut up. Every sheets getting cut up. Goudy sheets, Diamond Star sheets, basketball sheets, every sheet you see in the auction is being bought by someone who is cutting them up.

He's being sentenced in a week and his attorneys are asking for a probationary sentence. Marshall Fogel and James Spence wrote love letters to the Court about what a swell guy he is.

Thanks for posting this Jeff.

I recall around 2005 or even earlier, someone posted a message on the CU Board where this collector claimed that he approached Bill Mastro to auction off his vintage raw card collection. According to this collector, Mastro told him that the cards would sell for a lot more if they were PSA graded. The collector said that he would send the cards to PSA himself. According to this collector, Mastro strongly urged him not to, but to let Mastro keep the cards and he'd guarantee that he could get a lot higher grades if he submitted them. Mastro supposedly admitted that he would alter the cards in some form to make the grades significantly higher. This collector was shocked and thought PSA should know about this. In typical PSA fashion, PSA deleted the thread.

Now reading that Mastro admitted in 2008 that he could easily get altered cards graded by PSA is totally inexcusable for PSA. They need to buy back all of Mastro's submissions. Shame on them.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Three reasons.
1. They are willfully blind to what is going on.
2. They look pretty.
3. Ego.

I suppose there is a fourth, which I alluded to before, as long as the market overall doesn't care, the cards are for the most part good investments.

I'll second that as a spot-on summation of the problem Peter.

The credulity of these elite collectors has baffled me to no end. I've had some very engaging discussions with some very well-known, highly intelligent and wealthy collectors from 2007 to 2010 and they either don't seem to see a problem with PSA grading altered cards or they think that PSA get's it right 99.9% of the time. In turn they think I'm completely mistaken or I'm a malcontent with an ax to grind. The most disturbing are the people that don't care if the card is altered - as long as it has a grade. There has to be some sort of psychological disorder that sustains these people.

Even more disturbing in all of this is how PSA walks away relatively unscathed by these horrific sandals. For the few like me that departed from PSA in total disgust, there's always others entering in the hobby to take my place.

At what point does law enforcement step in and say clean up your act or we will shut you down since your service is being used to systematically defraud a lot of people?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dan I've talked to some of those people too, and I think Paul Simon said it best: A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest. And what these folks seem to want are extremely nice looking cards that have the appearance of legitimacy, and that enable them to see their names in the top tiers of the set registry. Whether some of the cards might have had some help seems to be beside the point.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dan I've talked to some of those people too, and I think Paul Simon said it best: A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest. And what these folks seem to want are extremely nice looking cards that have the appearance of legitimacy, and that enable them to see their names in the top tiers of the set registry. Whether some of the cards might have had some help seems to be beside the point.

and yet if a new grading company wants to start, everyone says to stay with PSA and would be crazy to send cards to any upstart... (though if there are clear grading issues already for the upstart I understand, I am just talking generally)

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Thanks for posting this Jeff.

I recall around 2005 or even earlier, someone posted a message on the CU Board where this collector claimed that he approached Bill Mastro to auction off his vintage raw card collection. According to this collector, Mastro told him that the cards would sell for a lot more if they were PSA graded. The collector said that he would send the cards to PSA himself. According to this collector, Mastro strongly urged him not to, but to let Mastro keep the cards and he'd guarantee that he could get a lot higher grades if he submitted them. Mastro supposedly admitted that he would alter the cards in some form to make the grades significantly higher. This collector was shocked and thought PSA should know about this. In typical PSA fashion, PSA deleted the thread.

Now reading that Mastro admitted in 2008 that he could easily get altered cards graded by PSA is totally inexcusable for PSA. They need to buy back all of Mastro's submissions. Shame on them.

Need a little more proof that a criminal saying he can do that...for all we know he just said that to get peoples business to submit cards to his auction..

how many people say 'I got the hook up' when in actuality if you take them up on it (for something legal) it doesn't go through....like the food isn't for free at the restaurant because of his friend being the manager type of thing..

[wonkaticket]

The new Mastro inspired motivational posters....

[calvindog]

Lolololololol

[Peter_Spaeth]

There must be a poster somewhere in the shill bidding account opened in a priest's name...

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Need a little more proof that a criminal saying he can do that...for all we know he just said that to get peoples business to submit cards to his auction..



how many people say 'I go the hook up' when in actuality if you take them up on it (for something legal) it doesn't go through....like the food isn't for free at the restaurant because of his friend being the manager type of thing..

What does "I go the hook up" mean?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

What does "I go the hook up" mean?

Unassociated streams of thought being regurgetated on a public chat board.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Unassociated streams of thought being regurgetated on a public chat board.

Imagine Barry Bonds or Wilt Chamberlain with a gun.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dan I've talked to some of those people too, and I think Paul Simon said it best: A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest. And what these folks seem to want are extremely nice looking cards that have the appearance of legitimacy, and that enable them to see their names in the top tiers of the set registry. Whether some of the cards might have had some help seems to be beside the point.

A virtual Plastic Pee Pee Measuring Contest of sorts.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

What does "I go the hook up" mean?

I 'got' the hook up... Mastro saying he has a hook up to better grades with PSA....how do we know its just him saying that...how do we know if thats true....the person saying it is going to be a convicted felon

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I 'got' the hook up... Mastro saying he has a hook up to better grades with PSA....how do we know its just him saying that...how do we know if thats true....the person saying it is going to be a convicted felon

It's time to buy a new keyboard.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think it's the keyboard.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

and yet if a new grading company wants to start, everyone says to stay with PSA and would be crazy to send cards to any upstart... (though if there are clear grading issues already for the upstart I understand, I am just talking generally)

yep, they complain about it (or at least know the problem exists), but dont want anyone else to compete.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dan I've talked to some of those people too, and I think Paul Simon said it best: A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.

Excellent analogy. There does seem to be a lot of similarities between some high-profile collectors and pugilists whose heads have been pummeled into punch-drunk numbness.

[glynparson]

What upstart without tons of skeletons has been ripped? I do not know of one that has been opened that does not personally raise red flags with me. Sometimes it is not the message being attacked but who the message is about. Sorry I personally have no faith in the graders at the company mentioned in the other thread. Yes less faith than i have in SGC or PSA graders, far less. Yes I know they aren't perfect either and would never feel they were right if i disagreed with them. I trust my opinion over any of theirs on items i am very familiar with. I would trust your honest opinion on many boxing autos over theirs but they are still better than the upstarts, at least those i am aware of from the past 5 -10 years.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by glynparson

What upstart without tons of skeletons has been ripped? I do not know of one that has been opened that does not personally raise red flags with me. Sometimes it is not the message being attacked but who the message is about. Sorry I personally have no faith in the graders at the company mentioned in the other thread. Yes less faith than i have in SGC or PSA graders, far less. Yes I know they aren't perfect either and would never feel they were right if i disagreed with them. I trust my opinion over any of theirs on items i am very familiar with. I would trust your honest opinion on many boxing autos over theirs but they are still better than the upstarts, at least those i am aware of from the past 5 -10 years.

I am an upstart, are they better than me?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought this was a thread about Mastro?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

Unassociated streams of thought being regurgetated on a public chat board.

My favorite sentence of the week.