Who's next in the HOF from the old days??

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Posted By: HalleyGator 

As you guys and gals all know, I collect cards for HOF players only ... so it is always crucial for me to know who might get into the HOF BEFORE their cards get scarce and expensive. I learned my lesson on Bid McPhee. Uggh.

Can you 19th century experts PLEASE give me your honest and best guesses as to who the MOST LIKELY candidates would be??

I know that the Veterans Committee has been restructured in such a way that the answer may be "NOBODY" ... but thanks anyway for your thoughts.

www.LewisBaseballCards.com

(Yes, I know that Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose are in my collection but NOT in the HOF ... but they will be some day I think)

Thanks - Hal

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Posted By: HalleyGator

Sorry, but I am NOT limiting this to 19th century players only.

I could use information about ANY "Pre-War" players who might fit the bill.

I do NOT, however, need information on Gil Hodges, Ron Santo, Jim Rice, Don Mattingly, etc.

Thanks

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Posted By: Andy Baran

But here are a few (in no particular order) that may be considered. I believe that all of these players meet the minimum year requirement to be eligible:

Pete Browning
Rip Van Haltren
Bill Dahlen
Tip O'Neil
Jimmy Ryan
Charlie Buffinton
Tony Mullane
Bob Caruthers
Deacon Phillipe
Ed Reulbach
Mike Donlin
Lefty O'Doul
Sam Leever

There are also MANY additional Negro Leaguers that should be in the Hall of Fame.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Andy--You left out the fellow I believe to be the most likely candidate--Dummy Hoy. I would also think that two possiblities are Stovey and Orr. I think it is a travesty that Orr and Browning are not in the HOF. They were two of the best hitters of their time but just happened to be in the AA. The first year they competed with NL stars (1890 in the PL) they finished one-two in batting.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Jay,

I inadvertantly left Harry Stovey on the list. He was actually the first one that I thought of, but forgot to type his name.

I don't know much about Orr, which is why he was not on my list.

I respectfully disagree about Hoy. He was a great player, but in my opinion, not anywhere near the top of the list of potential HOFers.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Now I remember why I didn't place Orr on my list. When I looked him up, he played less than 10 professional seasons, which I believe would make him inelligible, unless he was voted in as a pioneer of the game. Is this correct?

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Andy--I don't disagree with you. I just think that Hoy has decent stats and, possibly more importantly, a good story.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Andy--I think you are right on Orr--he was one year short. However, if you say he batted zero for a tenth year I still think he should make the HOF.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

There is a book on this subject available. I'm not sure if Vintage Players are represented or not.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1888698446/qid%3D1062791482/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/102-4515563-4415326

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Posted By: Brian Hodes

I hate to be a spoilsport but the honest answer is "Nobody" from the 19th Century. As I understand it the earliest player elgible is 1910's - 20's Pitcher Carl Mays (talk about an interesting story!).
There certainly could be Negro League players added to the Honor Role. Andy, Kenny and Ryan know a lot more than I do but I beleive the strongest candidates from this group include: Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente and Biz Mackey.

I collect all of the great players I think should be HOFers anyway even though they are barred from the Cooperstown shrine. My list includes most of the 19th Cnetury guys referenced in the posts above.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

My list for 19th century players that I think should be inducted:

Harry Stovey
Jack Glasscock
Pete Browning
George Van Haltren
Charles Bennett
Tony Mullane
William Hoy

Guys with the best shot in my opinion:

Stovey (because he had the numbers, etc.)

Hoy (because he was pretty darn good, especially when you consider the disabilities he had to grapple with during that era and his career is one that makes for good storytelling.

Van Haltren

Browning (The original Louisville slugger)

I would also like to see the Hall of Fame do something public to honor the careers and lives of 19th century African-American players like Frank Grant, George Stovey, Moses Fleetwood Walker, Sol White, Bud Fowler, etc. They've been trying to do right by 20th century Negro League players in the last couple of decades, but I think Cooperstown could do a lot more to honor these men and their contributions to the National Game.
How come groups like SABR always do such a great job of recognizing great players and their careers, but Major League Baseball is always a little late?

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

the most qualified "old time" players (regardless of era) by position not yet in the Hall of Fame:

PITCHER (Sorry, John - no Larry Corcoran)
Carl Mays
Wes Ferrell
Lon Warneke

CATCHER
Joe Torre
Ted Simmons

FIRST BASE
Dick Allen

SECOND BASE
Cupid Childs
Buddy Myer

THIRD BASE
Darrell Evans

SHORTSTOP
Bill Dahlen
Ed McKean

LEFT FIELD
Bob Johnson
Jim Rice
Al Oliver

CENTER FIELD
George Van Haltren
Jimmy Ryan

RIGHT FIELD
Dwight Evans
Dave Parker
Mike Tiernan

NEGRO LEAGUES
Bill Byrd - Pitcher
Louis Santop - Catcher
Ben Taylor - First Base
Bingo DeMoss - Second Base
Ollie Marcelle - Third Base
Dick Lundy - Shortstop
Mule Suttles - Left Field
Cristobel Torriente - Center Field
Willard Brown - Right Field

I hate to say it, but I'm not sure we'll ever see another 19th century player make it.

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Posted By: runscott

19th Century - Glasscock.

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Posted By: halleygator

Hey guys...

what about the guy who played in the 1860's that was a legend (Creighton or something like that?) ... wouldn't he be eligible as a "pioneer"??

The guy I am thinking of played for Excelsior. Is it Creighton?? Jim?


What about Ross Barnes? Wasn't he a superb hitter?

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Posted By: Dan

How about letting me know your Betz cabinet arrived ok today? dan.

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

No one mentioned Bobby Mathews yet? He had 297 wins!

Joe Start and Dickey Pearce can be considered pioneers maybe,they were 2 of the best players during their day,even if their major league stats dont show it. Creighton was credited with throwing the "speedball" which was basically an underhand fastball,but he also died at the age of just 21 after injuring himself batting

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

Under current rules there wont be anyone elected from the 19th century too soon but if you look over Hall of Fame history youll see the election methods change basically daily,so to say they will stick with the current form of voting is a stretch. Eventually some of these players have to make it because theyre all all-stars from their day.I just think it will be a slow process

so to answer Hal's question,heres my best guesses:
batter: van haltren
pitcher: caruthers,followed closely by Mullane

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

I think it would be an interesting notion to have Creighton inducted as a baseball pioneer. Creighton was credited by folks like Henry Chadwick for changing the baseball's pitching style and he was extremely popular all over the country bringing a more aggresive approach to the game. His impact on the game had to be quite significant in the few years he was alive, because when he died it was BIG news. I suppose the whole issue really depends on the Hall of Fame's induction criteria. Can a player, manager or executive's impact on the game be so significant that it supersedes some or all requirements for eligibilty? I think in Creighton's case it could. I'd love to hear some for or against thoughts on this.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Bobby Matthews is a good choice. I wouldn't mind seeing Deacon White in the Hall too.

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

I tend to agree with Brian, at least to a point. I don't think a 19th Century ballplayer is going to be elected for quite some time. Actually, I have some doubt about 20th Century ballplayers being elected by the Veteran's Committee. The way they vote now just makes it too tough. After a few years of no one getting in, they'll revamp it though. No elections isn't good business for MLB or for the HOF. Consequently, they'll change the voting system after a few years of nothing.

As I understand it, the Negro League players are in a seperate category and another special committee has been appointed to study them. The players who had the most support in the last few years before the rule change were Mackey, Torriente, Lundy, Suttles and Raymond Brown. Willard Brown also had some support, and all of the others mentioned by Brian, etc. are worthy of consideration. Off the top of my head, I would add Pete Hill, Spottswood Poles, Jud Wilson and Jose Mendez to the list.

Mackey, Torriente, Lundy and both Browns have cards. Mackey is very tough to find because there is only one card of him (I know of maybe 5 copies), Ditto for Lundy. Torriente is tough but achievable (5 different cards, I believe, all fairly expensive but doable). Raymond Brown is relatively easy to pick up in the Cuban Caramelo Deportivo set, and Willard Brown has two tough to find Puerto Rican cards and a rare(and ugly) card from the Dominican Republic. Mendez is doable if you get one of his cards from the '20's (he also has a Punch - I know of 1 copy). Hill is impossible. He is reputed to have 2 cards, a Cabanas and a Punch. I know of only 1 Cabanas card of him, period, and have never seen or even heard of anyone who has a Punch of him. Maybe Ryan knows more. That's all I know.

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Posted By: Anonymous

To some extent Creighton's story was pilfered by Bernard Malamud in the "The Natural." The truth of Creighton's career was that he was considered the greatest player in the nascent baseball leagues around New York city. Creighton was not only the best Pitcher he was also the best hitter. Creighton died at age 21 of internal injuries brought on by swinging bat and hitting a game winning hit.

Although the HOF has relaxed its 10 year requirement in the past -- Addie Joss comes to mind -- Creighton's career was from the meagre records available on the short end of five years. The game Creighton played was primitive even compared with the pre-National Association Red Stockings Teams led by the Wright brothers (Harry and George -- not Orville) in the late 1860's.

While he was apparently great for at least a little while, there is no evidence that he made any real contribution to the game as an innovator or pioneer like some of the earliest Hall of aFamers -- Candy Cummings, AL Spalding or the Wrights. I don't really think he is a Hall of Famer but certainly his story belongs in Cooperstown.

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Posted By: Brian Hodes

I didn't mean to be anonymous.

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

Ross Barnes was a great hitter, just compare his numbers to those from George Wright...

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Posted By: Rhett

Lave Cross-can't believe nobody said this one before
Arlie Latham-"The Freshest Man on Earth"
Gus Weyhing
Elmer Smith
Ezra Sutton
Tommy Bond
Asa Brainard
Paul Hines
Jim McCormick
Hardie Richardson
Fred Tenney
Mike Tiernan
Ned Williamson

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Posted By: TBob

Turkey Mike Donlin Giants
Tony Oliva Twins
Pete Rose Reds
Joe Jackson White Sox

Not sure if Donlin had the requisite number of years because he was on stage part of the time and suspended part of the time but the guy was a star in his era.

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Posted By: Julie Vognat

....

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Posted By: jay behrens

Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone mentioned Decone Phillipe, the Ace of the great Pirates teams. Carl MAys would be there if not for the Chapman death.

Not a candidate for the HOF, but one of my favorite 19th century players is Guy Hecker. He is the only pitcher to win a batting title leadding the AA in 1886 with a 342 avg. He threw a no hitter, set AA record for wins with 52, led the tema in in HRs in 1884, was the first pitcher to hit 2 HRs in a game also was the first player to play 1B with a single fielding chance the entire game.

Some also mentioned George Gore who has interesting stat. He lead the league in walks in 1886 with 102 in 120 odd game. The amazing thing about this is that it took 7 balls to walk taht year.

Jay

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Posted By: BROOKS

COME ON BOB THE ONLY HALL OF FAME ROSE BELONGS IN IS THE "WHINERS" HOF, HIS SON DOES A GOOD IMPRESSION OF HIM TOO. IF PETE EVER CRIES HIS WAY BACK IT SHOULD ONLY BE 70-80 YEARS AFTER JOE JACKSON AMD HAL CHASE ARE INDUCTED AS THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ACCORDED ANY MEDIA CAMPAIGNING . YOUR OTHER CHOICES WERE OKAY BUT I WILL STICK WITH
CARRUTHERS
GLASSCOCK
ORR
STOVEY

REGARDS BROOKS

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

That there are about 20 typos in my post (a few back), including the spelling of my own name, and the e-mail address under it. Well, I guess everyone knows about my typing by now, so all I can do is apologize--and try to do better. The typos are complicated by my inability to spell. That's the way you get to be an English teacher--you can't type, and you can't spell.

The same (terribly observant) person also pointed out how stupid it was of me not to know Creighton was not in the HOF. I sorta thought that's what I was pointing out by posting it--but who knows, maybe some of you thought I was arguing. Again, if I have offended anyone (else), I'm sorry.

In the words of the immortal Joe E. Brown: "Nobody's perfect."

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

Julie,everyone knows about your spelling so you dont have to apologize for it,we are used to it and im sure no one else is a perfect speller either. I do find it a little amusing as you pointed out that you indeed spelled your name wrong and got your email address wrong the first time,but also in your unnecessary apology you also got your email address wrong again.

No need to harp on that tho Julie,how about providing some insight on the subject.I know youre a big fan of Dummy Hoy,why not actually contribute to the thread....but of course you dont have to if you dont want to

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Posted By: julie

AT and T puilled another switch--I think that's how it reads under my second post.

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Posted By: julie

comma. It should be a period.

rvognar01@comcast.net

There were two Irishman looking at an advertising sign in NYC when they got off the boat, which said----and one said to the other, "Boy, that's what I call advertising!"

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Posted By: Jeff O

Let's face it, gang, it hasn't been a "Hall of Fame" in a long, long time. It should change it's name to the "Hall of Very Good", or the "Hall of Better than Average".

The HOF is diluted, and adding more maginal players makes it worse every time one is inducted. I know that many, if not most, will disagree with this, but it's only my opinion.

The Veterens Committee was a joke - it seems that most of the guys selected were former teammates of the members. Frankly, if a player wasn't good enough to make it based on the voting standards in place at the time of his eligibility, he shouldn't be in. Obviously this doesn't apply to players through about 1930... but the VC and other committees have already "supposedly" added the best players from those earlier eras.

Is the current voting system flawed? Yes. Was the VC flawed? Yes. The HOF should probably have about about 100... maybe 120 players in it. If they're not careful, it will end up like the hockey HOF, full of members that most people have never heard of.

Jeff O
http://www.seattlehockey.net

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

(I just thought how I kept typing my name and e-mail, like one of those ads on TV, where the guy keeps repeating the phone number. That's why the half a dirty joke. )

I think O'Neill's and Caruthers' records speak for themselves. I only want Hoy if it turns out he himself really started the hand signals--which are invaluable in a modern ballgame. I'm spoken to a guy who talked to his grandson, who says yes, Dummy H. did do it--but I know others have the credit, etc. and there are other stories. I think Hoy was an excellent player, but not quite HOF stuff, unless the hand signals are his.

Look ma, no typos!

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Posted By: Paul

I agree that many, many Veterans Committee selections were huge mistakes. I also agree that if you can't get in through the front door, that's a pretty good indicator that you don't belong. But what about Johnny Mize and Arky Vaughan? I think these were two truly outstanding players and the Hall would be a poorer place without them. I guess the bottom line is that it's impossible to design a perfect system. If you want to avoid embarrassing omissions, like Mize and Vaughan, you're going to get a whole bunch of Rixeys and Hafeys. And I'm not sure which of the two choices is worse.