R314 Type 4&5 on eBay

[buckyball1]

I enjoy collecting 20s/30s B&W R type cards. I have a very modest set of R314 Type 1, about 2/3 of R314 Type 4 (Creamy) and a few scattered Type 2.3.5 ("no Litho USA", no border, Canadian players-Montreal/Toronto)

Just ended on eBay was a card by card auction of pretty much an entire set of R314 Type 5 and the Detroit Type 4 players in very nice shape-I haven't seen many of these cards on eBay in the last 3 years, much less "all" of them-of course i got none of them; there appeared to be a "top all" bidder who needed to have all the cards.

I've found the Detroit Type 4s to be much harder to find than the other "4s" and this coupled with these Detroit 4s being sold with all the Canadian 5s by a Canadian seller lends credence to the Type 4 Detroit players being distributed with the Type 5s, perhaps in Canada only?

I also saw a Walker, batting (Detroit Type 4) that isn't listed in my 2008 Std Cat??

I'm sure there are a few of you who can weigh in here (Tim?)-perhaps you bought them?

thanks
jim

[fkw]

Funny, you beat me by a minute in a post on these rare cards.

The Tiger cards are really part of the same set. there is cropping differences in the Type 4 (R314C) and Type 5 (R314D) Tiger cards.

Example (R314C on left, R314D on right)

[buckyball1]

F--thanks for the Type 4/5 Detroit pics; i would never have noticed this crop difference w/o someone bringing it to my attention

jim

[jeffmohler]

I collect them. I have about 7 or 8 in all. As far as the Detroit players, I have Rogell (Good) and Gehringer (SGC 80). I had some snipes set and came in second on a few, but I have spent a little too much recently and couldn't go as strong as I wanted to.

Interesting note: When I sent Gehringer in to be graded, I had to send Tim Newcomb's Old Cardboard article to prove to SGC that the Detroit players were included in this rare set.

[timn1]

Hi guys,
Can you post a link to one of the auctions? I didn't see these, but I'd like to see what was involved.

Tim

[timn1]

Jeff is right. I think my article correctly characterizes the "Canadian" set (Type 5)-- the 8 Detroit players are part of it, along with 39 Montreal and Toronto guys. It's difficult to tell the difference from scans alone, but the matte paper stock on the Canadian Tigers is very different from the "Creamy" set, which is quite glossy. And as Jeff points out, there are cropping differences--

The Detroit players in the Canadian set are a good bit easier to find than the Montreal and Toronto players, in my experience.

I'll check in again after I've seen the auctions-

Tim

[buckyball1]

Tim--here's one--as Frank said, there close to 50 of these

http://cgi.ebay.com/1936-GOUDEY-R314...item5191c6637c


jim

[timn1]

Well, isn't that a kick in the pants? I thought I was complete on this very tough set, but this group gives us three new additions to the checklist of R314-5, all Detroit players: Fox, Walker, and Hayworth. I have seen a lot of the Detroit players overall, but never these three.

The Canadian players were all on the existing lists, so now we're at 50: 39 Montreal and Toronto photos, 11 Tigers. That makes more sense than 47 for a total number of the set. I just wish I had known about them when I wrote the articles.

BTW, the only Canadian players missing from the group today were Chagnon and Shaughnessy.

Those prices were pretty impressive, I thought. About $2600 for 50 cards. Impressive Canadian collection too. It's weird, I just started checking ebay again after a long hiatus-- can't understand how I missed these.

Tim

[fkw]

I just went back and looked.

There were *47 (*edited) different today

10 were Tigers (no Gehringer), *37 were Toronto/Montreal (no Shaugnessy, *Chagon)



I count 11 different Tigers. (10 in todays auctions + Gehringer)

1. Cochrane
2. Fox
3. Gehringer
4. Goslin
5. Greenberg
6. Hayworth
7. Rogell
8. Rowe
9. Simmons
10. Walker
11. White

That would be an even 50 in the set. (39+11) Maybe the SCD can update this 2011

*******Edited to say I was obviously slow with my research ******

[timn1]

I do have duplicates of Shaughnessy and Gehringer, heh heh. Let me know if you're interested

Tim

[ethicsprof]

Tim,

your article continues to be most helpful.
it still stays next to my Lipset and is a keeper!!
best,
Barry

[cdn_collector]

On a side note, does anyone have, or can anyone direct me to a player/team checklist for the 39 Montreal/Toronto players? At some point I may expand my "pre-1920" collection to include some of the 30's b/w issues...

I don't have my OC back issues anymore and can't recall if there was such a checklist in Tim's article.

Regards,

Richard.

[Section103]

Man, someone broke my heart yesterday afternoon.

[timn1]

I can send you the 39 "Canadian" names later tonight, but if you can't wait until then, you can also get them from looking at yesterday's auctions, plus Shaughnessy and Chagnon.

[timn1]

I decided to take the next bus to school , so here's the checklist. The teams are based on my examination of Int'l League rosters for the relevant years, but I think they are pretty solid. O'Brien appears to be a trainer and Moreau some sort of club official or broadcaster-- can't assign them to teams.

How could anyone get rid of their old Old Cardboards?

Bates Buddy MON
Bissonette Del MON
Chagnon Leon MON
Dugas Gus MON
Granger George MON
Heath Thomas MON
Hensick Phil MON
Johnson Henry MON
King Hal MON
Lucas Charles T. MON
Myatt Glenn MON
Myllykangas Lauri MON
Polli Crip MON
Rhiel Billy MON
Sankey Ben MON
Seeds Bob MON
Shaughnessy Frank MON
Smythe Harry MON
Tate Ben MON
Thompson Fresco MON
Wilson Charlie MON
Blakely Link TOR
Boone Isaac TOR
Burnett John TOR
Erickson Henry TOR
Funk Art TOR
Hermann LeRoy TOR
Miller Edward TOR
Mooty Jake TOR
Murray George TOR
Nicolas Francis TOR
Oliver Thomas TOR
Pattison James TOR
Pool Harlin TOR
Purcey Walter TOR
Scarsella Leslie TOR
Wistert Francis TOR
Moreau Guy NONE
O'Brien Bill NONE

[cdn_collector]

Tim that's awesome. Thanks so much!

Regards,

Richard.

[paul]

Are these two the rare Type 5s? I can't find them in the checklists for the more common creamy set (the set with DiMaggio).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWNX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWNX:IT

If they are Type 5s, they went for a lot less than the previous batch.

[paul]

I just looked back at the earlier auctions and see that only a few of the cards of common players went for a lot of money. And the earlier Simmons and Cochrane both went cheap. Are these all really the rare type 5s?

[egbeachley]

[QUOTE=fkw;801598]

The Tiger cards are really part of the same set. there is cropping differences in the Type 4 (R314C) and Type 5 (R314D) Tiger cards.

QUOTE]

Are you sure the difference is in cropping? The one on the right looks like a photograph while the one on the left looks like a drawing or is airbrushed or whatever they called it back then.

[fkw]

Yes they are the very tough type 5's. All the auctions with "GOODEY" in title were duplicates sold by the same Canadian seller that had the near set a couple weeks back. I finally got a couple too.

In last month weve seen about 60-65 of these Rare cards on eBay, but usually its more like 5-10 examples a year on eBay, at most.


I believe this is the correct info below... (guides need to change their checklists)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
type5 has 12 different Detroit Tigers* known (maybe 13, Owen?)

Cochrane, Goslin, Hayworth, Rogell, Simmons, Walker, White are only found in type5 (photo is same as type1 but no "Litho in USA" line)

At least 2 of the Detroit players are found in type4 & type5 with similar poses but have very slight contrast/cropping differences
Gehringer, Greenberg, (Owen?)

3 of the Detroit players found in both type4 & type5 sets have completely different poses, so are obviously easy to spot.
type4 ... Bridges (throwing), Fox (batting), Rowe (throwing)
type5 ... Bridges (portrait), Fox (portrait), Rowe (portrait)

[fkw]

I posted the comparison pictures of the type4 and type5 Gehringer earlier in this post.

Here is the Greenberg, its much easier to see the differences, mainly in contrast ......notice top of his right ear (left side ear), and also the crease on uniform on left side of picture. The overall color/contrast is much darker on the type4.


type4, type5

[fkw]

Anyone have the R314-4 "creamy" Owen card??? Id like to see scans of any you may have. Im trying to see if there are 2 versions of this Owen portrait card like the Gehringer and Greenberg.

There was no Owen in the 2 groups of type5's on eBay, so Im not sure if it is part of the type4 or type5 set, or maybe both.

[paul]

Thanks for the info. I'm glad to have these rare cards even if they ain't worth so much.

[buckyball1]

wow, now i am really sad--when the first large batch i started the thread about appeared awhile back, i couldn't "afford" to win any---now having my searches set for 1936 Goudey or R314, i never even saw these (and i could have won some)....so i still have no Type 5s---bummed

jim

[timn1]

Hi Frank,
I don't think Owen is part of the Type 5 set -- I was assuming we were now complete at 50 (11 Tigers)-- do you have reason to think Owen is also in it?

Tim

[fkw]

Hi Tim,
As you might know the type4 and type5 Tigers were combined in the checklist
Owens is listed in the 2009 SCD type 4 checklist with an asterik (*) and says pose is "Portrait".
I just noticed its not a part of your checklist (Old Cardboard issue #7) for the type4.

someone must have reported it to Lemke at some time.

Sounds like it would be a type5.

PS.
I have 12 Tigers listed now (and the Owens would be 13).

Tim, the Greenberg is the card that you dont have on your list I believe, not including the Owens which I have never seen but is listed in the SCD as part of either type4 or type5.

1.Bridges
2.Cochrane
3.Fox
4.Gehringer
5.Greenberg
6.Goslin
7.Hayworth
8.Owens*
9.Rogell
10.Rowe
11.Simmons
12.Walker
13.White

[timn1]

Hi Frank,

Greenberg should have been on that list in the Old Cardboard issue. He is pretty common in Type 5. We have now verified Hayworth, Walker, and Fox thanks to the recent ebay auctions. I still don't have any hard evidence of an Owen, however. Can you supply that?

Tim

[fkw]

Hi again Tim, I know Im not the best at explaining things...

This is what I have so far...

In the 2009 SCD Standard Catalog (page 164), the "1937 Goudey Premiums type 4" checklist has a total of 36 cards listed.

25 are the fairly common type4 "creamy" wide pens (DiMaggio, Feller, Hubbell, Doerr, etc.), but they also include a Cronin in checklist for some reason (I think this is an error listing). So 26 total.

The remaining 10 cards in this checklist are all the Tigers type5 cards, and includes an Owen (portrait) in checklist.

The only cards that are not listed in this 2009 SCD combined checklist is the Walker (type5), and the 2nd versions (type5) of Greenberg and Gehringer (they only listed 1 card ea. in checklist).

Owen is not a part of the 25 card type4 set checklisted in the #7 issue of Old Cardboard Magazine, so If it does exist it would be a type5 IMO.


If this SCD combined checklist is accurate (besides the Cronin error), and adding the newly seen Walker and the 2nd Greenberg and Gehringer...
type4 has 25 cards
type5 has 13 Tigers cards (including Owen, which someone at Krause had added to this goofy checklist some time before 2009).

So The type5 set should NOW be complete at 52 cards (39 minors, 13 Tigers)

***Unless the Owen listing in the 2009 SCD is also an error like the Cronin