19th century " Holy Grail "

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by Mozzie22

Does anyone have images of all the cards mentioned? I would love to see a scan of the Just So Cy Young card.

Here's Cy:

[bcbgcbrcb]

Here's the Four Base Hits King Kelly............

[benjulmag]

My opinion, P & S Creighton...for one main reason. That is the only card of his, period. And one of only two known photographic images of any kind. The other candidates are all incredible examples. And, as a practical matter, they are all impossible to obtain. But cards of Anson and Kelly (factoring other poses/issues) are easy to obtain. In regard to Spalding, there are a multitude of other cards that depict him in a team context. And in the solo context, though harder, there are at least two known cabinets/Cdv's.

[barrysloate]

Corey- over fifty posts and nobody thought of Creighton. Another worthy contender (and it's "grammar").

[oldjudge]

Corey--No doubt a great card but to be "The" 19th century card, the equivalent of the T206 Wagner. I would think the player should, at a minimum, be a HOFer. I don't believe that Creighton is. In fact, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't he only play at the highest level for a few years? Your Young, now that's a different story.

[barrysloate]

Jay- he died at 21, so he didn't play too long period. But he was a star at 17.

[oldjudge]

Exactly--so he is basically Charlie Ferguson from the Old Judge set (a great player who died in his prime).

[barrysloate]

Creighton has become a cult figure, as he was the game's first great star.

[19cbb]

Barry... I selected the P&S Creighton on post 24 ... after selecting the Anson in uniform give the criteria...

[oldjudge]

Barry--I bet 90+% of 19th century collectors can't even tell you what team he played for.

[benjulmag]

For my nickel, after the Creighton (and to second what Barry said, he is regarded as the game's first superstar) would be the 4BH Kelly. I have always regarded it as the most artistic 19th century card I have ever seen. In the photo shoot which generated the image used for card, multiple poses were shot. One of the other poses in fact exists in imperial cabinet form. At the time the card was produced, Kelly was at the absolute zenith of his career, which I think also is relevant. The Four Base Hits issue is highly regarded, and even a common is a highly coveted item. Being then part of an incredibly scare issue to me adds to the allure. Finally, the Kelly is the only known non-portrait card in the issue.

Much has been said after the N172 Anson in uniform. No doubt it is an incredible card. The thing though which detracts from it, in regard to Holy Grail status, is that it is not Anson's only card in the issue (the other pose being a relatively easy card to obtain). That distinguishes it in a crucial way from the T206 Wagner (as well as the other 19th candidates we have been discussing). Had there been other poses of Wagner in the T206 issue, it is unclear to me whether THE pose would be so desirable.

[19cbb]

From The Library of Congress

[murcerfan]

is that a homophone he's leaning against?

[barrysloate]

Hi Jimmy- sorry I missed that.

[chiprop]

I understand we are talking about "The Grail", but ... '52 Mantle has thousands of examples, and the t-206 Wagner has close to a hundred. Both common in their respective sets and in my opinion very over rated. I think the grail in pre war is the Baltimore Ruth or t210 Jax. In 19th century, 4bh Kelly is unreal and one of the top 5 cards in the hobbby hands down.

[GaryPassamonte]

The props in the FBH Kelly are different than in the cabinet of Kelly. Also, no Boston on the FBH Kelly's shirt. I know the BOSTON could have been added, but what about the props. Different shoots?

[oldjudge]

There is only one great 19th century set and that is the Old Judge set. Anson in Uniform is a true rarity, of possibly the greatest 19th century player, and the key card of the set, which is why it is my choice. Kelly 4BH is a great card, but it is from a set that cannot practically be collected. I would think that the K-Bat Ewing is a better choice than the Kelly, but still no where near the Anson in Uniform level. The K-Bat Ewing is a rare card of a better player than Kelly (I think Kelly is possibly the most over rated 19thy century player--but that is another story). BTW, these debates are always fun.

[chiprop]

I don't know too much about 19th century, but the 4bh is a very cool looking card.

[benjulmag]

My third choice after the Creighton and Kelly would be the Just So Young. Like Four Base Hits, Just Sos are incredibly rare; for a type collector getting a common is very difficult. What makes the Young so special is that it is the only 19th century card (excluding studio cabinets) of arguably the greatest pitcher of all time, and shows him young and trim near the outset of his career. Another ten years will pass before his next card.

I agree with Jay; this is a fun debate.

[ElCabron]

For me, it's the Creighton. Nothing else even comes close.

Without the "For me" qualifier, I think the answer has to be Anson in uniform followed by Just So Cy Young.

The T206 Wagner is clearly the "Holy Grail" of all baseball cards, even though it's far from that for me.

So I guess if you ask me what THE Holy Grail of 19th century cards is, I will say Anson in uniform. And if you ask me what MY Holy Grail of 19th century cards is, I will say the Creighton Peck & Snyder.

-Ryan

[Leon]

Originally Posted by NoizeBringer

For me, it's the Creighton. Nothing else even comes close.

Without the "For me" qualifier, I think the answer has to be Anson in uniform followed by Just So Cy Young.

The T206 Wagner is clearly the "Holy Grail" of all baseball cards, even though it's far from that for me.

So I guess if you ask me what THE Holy Grail of 19th century cards is, I will say Anson in uniform. And if you ask me what MY Holy Grail of 19th century cards is, I will say the Creighton Peck & Snyder.

-Ryan

Most folks in this thread are missing the boat by giving the right answer to the wrong question.....Above Gary stated one of the criteria...

"It would have to be a special player from a classic set that is available enough to be collectible."

I would challenge anyone to show me how that question is answered with most of these answers. Are these mentioned cards available enough to be collectible? Nice debate and certainly what this board is best at.....(imo)

[rman444]

Leon - Bingo! See my entries about 50 posts above.

[Wesley]

Everyone is trying to name the rarest or earliest or most valuable card. That's fine, but not responsive to the original question.

[alanu]

The fact there isn't already a Holy Grail of 19th Century Cards, probably means there never will be one card.

IMHO, part of the the problem is that there are so many sets, not just individual cards that are in short supply, no one card will ever stand out.

[Bicem]

In that case I really can't think of a 19th century card as overrated as the Wagner or Mantle so I stumped.

[rman444]

Maybe a better thread would be "Who actually wants one of the Holy Grails?"

I have never owned a T206 Wagner or 1952 Topps Mantle, nor do I think that I ever will really want to given how much they sell for.

[Leon]

Rman and Wes.......Exactly.....we are seeing it the same way. IF we leave out the part about enough copies to be collectible then certainly Anson in Uniform, Just So Young, P and S Creighton and FBH Kelly would be at the top of many, if not most lists..However, with the Anson in Uniform being a total of 4 copies known, and the other 3 far less, these are not the correct answers.

Several board members, of course including myself, own an 1869 Peck and Snyder team card...AND they are available enough to own one if you want to (and have the money). Now, to get technical I don't think Gary mentioned it could be a team card, so if it can't then I am not sure what one I would pick. I kind of like the N172 Ewing and mascot.....it's a great card but I doubt there will be a good, overwhelming consensus on what the 19th Century holy grail is...best regards

[barrysloate]

There is no consensus, and there are too many rare 19th century cards. Every Kalamazoo Bats New York Giant or New York Met has 1-3 known, but none of them would qualify. There are probably at least half a dozen cards worthy of the title, and the best you could do in determining a winner is to have a poll.

[uffda51]

Along the lines of Leon's post (Hi, Leon), what if we limited our choices to something approaching the availability of the Wagner - say at least 50-100 examples or more. If we rule out team cards and the ultra rare cards of great players, where does that leave us? The 1952 Topps Mantle and the T206 Wagner are clearly the Grail cards of their eras even though the Mantle is not rare and not a rookie, and there are far tougher Wagners than the T206. I don't think there is a true Grail card for the 19th century, although there are certainly some great cards and some tough cards out there, as well as personal favorites. The N162 Anson comes close, though, IMHO.

[ElCabron]

I think most of us answered the original question. I didn't even see the modifications mentioned later. In fact, the stipulations added seem very contradictory to the original question, in my opinion.

In the original post we are asked if there are simply too many "extreme rarities" for any one card to stand alone. Then later we are told it would have to be a "special player from a classic set that is available enough to be collectible."

If a card is "available enough to be collectible" it is automatically NOT a Holy Grail card in my opinion. That's one reason the Mantle and Wagner are both NOT Holy Grail cards. Might be collectible and desirable, but a true Holy Grail card should be nearly impossible. Not impossible. But NEARLY impossible.

Maybe I have a different understanding of the term "Holy Grail" than most. I am unfamiliar with the legend that tells of King Arthur and the knights of the Round Table and their quest to find one of 80 or so examples of the Holy Grail.

Sir Lancelot: OMG! You'll never believe what I picked up in the last SCP Auction!
King Arthur: Wow! Sounds exciting. What it is? A one-of-a-kind item?
Sir Lancelot: Even better! It's a Holy Grail! I was the underbidder on the last 4 that came up for auction, but now I finally have a Holy Grail of my own!
King Arthur: Congrats, buddy! Yeah, I'm looking to upgrade my Holy Grail and there's a nice PSA 4 in the next online auction to close. Like you and I, the auction that's selling it is LEGENDARY!
Sir Lancelot: ROFLMAO!!!
Guinevere: I'd do just about ANYTHING to, I mean "for" anyone brave enough to find the only example of the only card of baseball's first superstar.
Sir Lancelot: Hey, um, I gotta split, Arthur. I'm pretty sure the Holy Grail I just bought was touched up and the images in the auction catalog were doctored since I bought it from SCP. I need to replace it. I think I'll head to the east coast to track down a lead on a Jim Creighton card I heard about. I know, it's no Holy Grail, but still pretty damn cool and far more important than most collectors realize. I might be interested in one of your Holy Grail dupes if I can't get the Creighton. Take good care of that wife of yours, friend, while you still can.
King Arthur: Take good care of my wife? While I still can? WTF???
Sir Lancelot: Um, what I mean is, uh, you never know what can happen in this crazy world. Look at it this way, if anything ever happened to you...or, worst-case, if anything happened to your wife, not like dying or anything, but if she wasn't around any more for whatever reason, at least you'd still have that Holy Grail of yours to keep you company. So you've got that going for you. Which is nice.
King Arthur: Okay, well, see ya, Lancey (said with Bush-like giggle). By the way, what the hell is "baseball" and where is this "east coast" you speak of?
Sir Lancelot (galloping off, voice fading): So long, sucker!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaannddddd.....scene.

Anyway, I hope this little mini-play gets my point across: It might make you feel like a king to own what most consider a Holy Grail, but you're one of many, and the guy with the real Holy Grail is probably sleeping with your wife.

Shame on you, Corey!!!

-Ryan

[barrysloate]

He's sleeping with my wife?

[felada]

the problem is that the mantle and wagner transcend the hobby. even non-collectors are aware of them and their value. there are really no 19th century cards that fit that criteria. I would offer up the Duke Delahanty as a possibility to the original post though. Great image, rare but not impossible to acquire, and an iconic player with very few issued cards.

[E93]

I think when you move to 19th century Holy Grail cards, extreme rarity to a much greater degree than the Wagner or Mantle goes without saying. If the Holy Grail must have 50-75 known copies like the Wagner, then you immediately eliminate 99% of the cards that probably first come to mind for the vast majority of 19th century collectors.

I would still go with the Anson, primarily due to being in the most popular and widely collected set and being arguably the top 19th century player. But I probably would not eliminate the Just So Cy Young just because only one is known. That would be a sort of definition of Holy Grail in some respects. And Cy Young is somebody who is widely known outside the hobby, due the award named after him. Most avid baseball fans today probably could not name two 19th century hall of famers for what that is worth.

My rank would be:
1. N172 Anson in uniform
2. Just So Cy Young
3. 4BH Kelly

Honorable mention: N167 Ewing

[E93]

I think requiring some minimum quantity of know examples or collectibility for "Holy Grail" status is counterintuitive to the title.
JimB

[Leon]

Upon further reflection I have to agree that the qualifier of the Holy Grail having a sufficient quantity to be collectible is a bit ironic, at least. So if we are saying "What is your Holy Grail of 19th Century cards, regardless of rarity", which is probably the better way of saying it, then mine becomes the Just So Cy Young. That is the card I would take over any other one, not only from the 19th Century, but any baseball card; period. regards

[Wesley]

If we are not responding to the question, then my pick is the 1914 Baltimore News Babe Ruth card.

[chiprop]

There you go, Wes! Baltimore Ruth or t210 Jax is the holy grail for me. Stand up against the '52 Mantle. It's not even his rookie card, and there may be 2,000 examples.

[Baseball Rarities]

If we are throwing out the original rules, then one more vote for the 1914 Baltimore News of Ruth.

[whycough]

I would like to mention the 187 N-172 Hoss Radbourn portrait. 19th century is not my bag, but I'd love one.

[Epps]

I vote T210 Jackson

[E93]

I don't think we need to throw out all the rules. Confining it to 19th century would still be nice.
JimB

[barrysloate]

I was thinking the same thing Jim. This thread was about 19th century cards.

[aaroncc]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

There is no consensus, and there are too many rare 19th century cards. Every Kalamazoo Bats New York Giant or New York Met has 1-3 known, but none of them would qualify. There are probably at least half a dozen cards worthy of the title, and the best you could do in determining a winner is to have a poll.

Not sure about the specifics. But I think a poll is a good idea.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by aaroncc

Not sure about the specifics. But I think a poll is a good idea.

If there is a poll the way the question is phrased will be very important. Picking a top 5? cards won't be too difficult but there could be a little bit of jockeying in positions. Certainly many of those already mentioned would make the list. You are welcome to start one Aaron, or anyone else.

[barrysloate]

I think the N172 Anson in Uniform would win in a poll.

[tedzan]

One of my favorite 19th Century "cards"......how many of these color-tinted Harper's prints of the Harry Wright "Big Bat" in excellent condition
are out there ?
I acquired this one several years ago and have been searching for another one....but, it aint out there.




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SERIOUSLY....this N162 Album is the winner in my book....as the most desirable 19th Century sports collectible.






Lithography at it's best......2 of 12 pages








T-Rex TED