Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hard to figure the drop in light of the report on the quarter which looked pretty good in a lot of metrics. Thinly traded I guess anything can happen.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Peter, you should consider working on Wall Street with that precise call on the short. Down over $3 today. Any other winners you want to share with us?

taking no questions from analyst on a conference call is a bad signal.It is a dead give away sell....they despise it

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

taking no questions from analyst on a conference call is a bad signal.It is a dead give away sell....they despise it

Did they refuse to take questions? I thought there simply weren't any. I would be shocked if any public company refused to take questions.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Did they refuse to take questions? I thought there simply weren't any. I would be shocked if any public company refused to take questions.

refusing taking none in my world is viewed as the same thing. both negative to me

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

refusing taking none in my world is viewed as the same thing. both negative to me

I don't understand. If nobody asked any questions what are they supposed to do?

[perezfan]

I was not on the call, but would not be surprised if they refused to take questions. This would be right in line with the actions on their message board, in which any dissenting opinions are deleted and/or censored.

They are the Kings of the Coverup, and it will eventually catch up with them. Obviously it's taking much longer than many of us would like, but they will someday be recognized for what they are.

[CuriousGeorge]

The stock was $10 last December. Since then it has nearly tripled while the industry is in the midst of an FBI investigation and who knows what else? I know I wouldn’t want to own the stock at these prices but then again I was one of the schmucks who used to believe the number on the slab was relevant so what do I know?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I was not on the call, but would not be surprised if they refused to take questions. This would be right in line with the actions on their message board, in which any dissenting opinions are deleted and/or censored.

They are the Kings of the Coverup, and it will eventually catch up with them. Obviously it's taking much longer than many of us would like, but they will someday be recognized for what they are.

They took lots of questions last quarter. Now whether their answers were candid is another matter...

It's not a widely followed stock. It wouldn't surprise me if there were no questions. It would surprise me greatly if they refused to take any.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They took lots of questions last quarter. Now whether their answers were candid is another matter...

It's not a widely followed stock. It wouldn't surprise me if there were no questions. It would surprise me greatly if they refused to take any.

Stock down 11% today. Winter is Coming to Santa Ana, and big Joe better get a warm coat on.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

As I posted yesterday afternoon, they allowed for questions and nobody asked any questions (assuming they weren't blocking calls, or acting like there were no calls when in fact there were calls or something to that affect).

As I recall they did field some calls the previous quarter regarding the card doctoring problem and in my opinion gave very unsatisfactory answers. Perhaps those responses discouraged future questions from competent investors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

As I posted yesterday afternoon, they allowed for questions and nobody asked any questions (assuming they weren't blocking calls, or acting like there were no calls when in fact there were calls or something to that affect).

As I recall they did field some calls the previous quarter regarding the card doctoring problem and in my opinion gave very unsatisfactory answers. Perhaps those responses discouraged future questions from competent investors.

I've read countless analyst call transcripts. Probing follow up questions don't get asked very often.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Thank you for joining us today, and I look forward to speaking with you next quarter. Now I would like to open the call to any questions you may have.

Question-and-Answer Session

Operator

Joseph Orlando

We thank all of you for joining us today and look forward to speaking with you next quarter.

Operator

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference. You may now disconnect.

[MULLINS5]

My God the Namath uncovered on Blowout.

Someone has to go to jail over that one card alone.

$252,000.00 gain.

Heartbreaking. Criminal.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

My God the Namath uncovered on Blowout.

Someone has to go to jail over that one card alone.

$252,000.00 gain.

Heartbreaking. Criminal.

Eh most of this stuff is under $10,000.00 so why would anyone care according to some posters here.

and issues on 252k card gains...thats easy to resolve..im sure a check will be wrtten for that as its getting 'worked out' everyone is happy or getting paid back, or not enough time has expired (even though there is statute of limitations) so no big deal.. everyone will agree the card at issue was the one altered and PSA or Heritage will just hand over 252k

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=230

[Johnny630]

Isn’t it funny how in many cases it’s always certain submitters that are getting high grades...then these end up in big major auction houses with sales that we have no idea were real or not ?

I wonder if these guys pay a certain price for a certain grade ?
Like x amount for 8 x amounts for 9’s x for 10’s wouldn’t shock me ....they’re already have invitational sit downs with graders how is that Kosher ?

[Republicaninmass]

I wonder how many people have added others to the ignore list since these cards were outed? The ignorance of some of these posts are criminal. Maybe I can sue for that?

[samosa4u]

Regarding the PSA 9 Joe Namath rookie, corndog wrote this:

Due to the blurring of the first image, I cannot confirm anything other than it being the same card as the PSA 9.

I can't see any alterations either. It's quite possible this card was just cracked out and resubmitted. Remember, big dealers tend to get higher grades compared to the average Joe.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Regarding the PSA 9 Joe Namath rookie, corndog wrote this:

Due to the blurring of the first image, I cannot confirm anything other than it being the same card as the PSA 9.

I can't see any alterations either. It's quite possible this card was just cracked out and resubmitted. Remember, big dealers tend to get higher grades compared to the average Joe.

That was a excellent last point. What did he pay for that high grade $3,000 $5,000 did he get the up charge call from Newport Beach ?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Regarding the PSA 9 Joe Namath rookie, corndog wrote this:

Due to the blurring of the first image, I cannot confirm anything other than it being the same card as the PSA 9.

I can't see any alterations either. It's quite possible this card was just cracked out and resubmitted. Remember, big dealers tend to get higher grades compared to the average Joe.

You can’t expect the Chaos of the board to be able read can you? It’s like when they see that wet spot on the floor of the supermarket and some woman on the ground nearby holding her head, their brains just shut off and all they can think of is dollar signs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

With a two grade bump and other circumstances, I would suspect some very subtle and sophisticated corner work was done, but obviously we don't have any proof of that so there's no basis to draw any supportable conclusions.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

With a two grade bump and other circumstances, I would suspect some very subtle and sophisticated corner work was done, but obviously we don't have any proof of that so there's no basis to draw any supportable conclusions.

What other circumstances? That it was regraded by PSA?

[Leon]

There are 1000s if not 10s of thousands of messed up (fraudulently altered) cards due to the scammers and the TPG's incompetency. That it was regraded is little solace.

Originally Posted by calvindog

What other circumstances? That it was regraded by PSA?

[Johnny630]

Looks like some sophisticated work was done on that bottom left corner to get it to lay down like that. Feel horrible for the original owner in the 7 holder....hope he doesn’t see this :-(

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

There are 1000s if not 10s of thousands of messed up (fraudulently altered) cards due to the scammers and the TPG's incompetency. That it was regraded is little solace.

Yes that was my point.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Looks like some sophisticated work was done on that bottom left corner to get it to lay down like that. Feel horrible for the original owner in the 7 holder....hope he doesn’t see this :-(

How do you feel for the guy who bought the 9 (assuming it was altered by the Skerbes in some way)?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How do you feel for the guy who bought the 9 (assuming it was altered by the Skerbes in some way)?

Like S too. However they know it’s in a PSA holder and it seems like that all that matters altered or not as long as it’s holder. I do not believe this Namath card has been altered.

Wish I could see a better scan of the Namath card on the left in the PSA 7 holder. Would like to see that bottom left corner better.

Idk

[Goudey77]

When I see all the talk about price increases and conspiracies of cards getting into higher grade holders. It reminds me of the simple fact that a grader from a TPG decided to make it so. These buyers are buying the grade. The TPG is the end game. Auction house just delivers.

It’s not even about the cards anymore. It’s the label and some cash $$$
Collectors have essentially made PSA the god of cards. Even if that happens to be a random guy or kid from So California.

[Bored5000]

That $252,000 price increase on the Namath card is just unreal. And people on here were actually skeptical if any card doctor would have had the balls to work on a $3,000 card?

I would always rather have an absolute rarity than a grade rarity, so I can't fathom at all why a two grade difference means a quarter of a million dollars.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How do you feel for the guy who bought the 9 (assuming it was altered by the Skerbes in some way)?

I guess it would depend what the card would now sell for. If sells for more and theres new buyers thinking its a legit 9 after all of this then its a non-issue.

The fact that threre is already a difference of opinion on whether the card was altered or not and this card involves 200k etc would seem to prove there will be a difference of opinion on other cards and we are not talking about cards that are worth 50 bucks.

However everyone seems to be happy so far and apparently even a 200k card issue can be resolved with everyone happy. One side says its altered and one side says it was, (both can hire experts on their position) its about 200k but its getting 'worked out'

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Looks like some sophisticated work was done on that bottom left corner to get it to lay down like that. Feel horrible for the original owner in the 7 holder....hope he doesn’t see this :-(

People disagree with that on this one whether this card was altered or not.

However, nobody really cares because after all who is going to sue when cards at issue are 10k or less like board members have said.

Its never going to involve 200k matters for example as there apparently was never trimming job on that only on cards 10k or less. , who the heck would sue over a 200k issue anyway..not worth their time or when it can get worked out is always a better alternative to a lawsuit so im sure PSA or AH would fork over 200k even if they dispute whether a card is altered, even a letter may due to trick to get them to pay

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

When I see all the talk about price increases and conspiracies of cards getting into higher grade holders. It reminds me of the simple fact that a grader from a TPG decided to make it so. These buyers are buying the grade. The TPG is the end game. Auction house just delivers.

It’s not even about the cards anymore. It’s the label and some cash $$$
Collectors have essentially made PSA the god of cards. Even if that happens to be a random guy or kid from So California.

It is indeed a strange form of alchemy -- take the same card, change what the flip says, and magically create 200K of value. David Hall certainly tapped into something didn't he?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It is indeed a strange form of alchemy -- take the same card, change what the flip says, and magically create 200K of value. David Hall certainly tapped into something didn't he?

May need to check out those Topps 1980 Ricky Henderson Rookies....what the difference is price between a PSA 8, PSA 9 and PSA 10?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

My God the Namath uncovered on Blowout.

Someone has to go to jail over that one card alone.

$252,000.00 gain.

Heartbreaking. Criminal.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=214

It's only a quarter of a mil, what's the big deal? Joe Willie rip off.

And you think my 1 billion $$$$ fraud estimate is off? I don't think so turd brains

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

When I see all the talk about price increases and conspiracies of cards getting into higher grade holders. It reminds me of the simple fact that a grader from a TPG decided to make it so. These buyers are buying the grade. The TPG is the end game. Auction house just delivers.

It’s not even about the cards anymore. It’s the label and some cash $$$
Collectors have essentially made PSA the god of cards. Even if that happens to be a random guy or kid from So California.

are you finally seeing the light My favorite Martin Is the PWCC PSA love fest over for you? it's much much deeper, Isn't it?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=214

It's only a quarter of a mil, what's the big deal? Joe Willie rip off.

And you think my 1 billion $$$$ fraud estimate is off? I don't think so turd brains

That $252K gain is a mind boggling windfall.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It is indeed a strange form of alchemy -- take the same card, change what the flip says, and magically create 200K of value. David Hall certainly tapped into something didn't he?

And $5,000 in grading fees for PSA. Everybody wins.

[perezfan]

Except for the minimum wage PSA grader. He got his $10 per hour, while his 2-grade bump made his company and the consignor wealthy. Gotta believe some of these hourly wage workers can’t resist a little payoff now and then.

The combination of TPGs and human greed have created a monster (as evidenced by the rather common Namath card).

[buymycards]

It would be interesting to see the income tax returns for the card doctors. Did the person who made a $200k profit on one card pay Federal and State income taxes? I doubt it.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by buymycards

It would be interesting to see the income tax returns for the card doctors. Did the person who made a $200k profit on one card pay Federal and State income taxes? I doubt it.

Zero chance they paid taxes owed. And I wonder if this is where this case ends up, in tax court.

I also wonder what IRS’s stance would be on the Vault, which is clearly an instrument to avoid state sales tax.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Like S too. However they know it’s in a PSA holder and it seems like that all that matters altered or not as long as it’s holder. I do not believe this Namath card has been altered.

Wish I could see a better scan of the Namath card on the left in the PSA 7 holder. Would like to see that bottom left corner better.

Idk

This follow-up post on the '65 Namath PSA "7 to 9" is very persuasive that a touched corner was "fixed" thus making the card appear to be mint.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=227

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

This follow-up post on the '65 Namath PSA "7 to 9" is very persuasive that a touched corner was "fixed" thus making the card appear to be mint.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=227

well im sure we will be told 'its being worked out' and what do we know because we are idiots and are not first hand involved in the matter...and our opinions mean nothing......

nobody sues for 250k and there will never be an argument of whether a card is altered or not...PSA will just pay out 200k because of a letter... , nothing to see here.....its only about 10k or less cards, nobody will have damages for more than 10k....

good point on tax argument by previous poster

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by buymycards

It would be interesting to see the income tax returns for the card doctors. Did the person who made a $200k profit on one card pay Federal and State income taxes? I doubt it.

I can't say positively. But you bring up an interesting point. If one of these card doctors tried filing a lawsuit against someone who called them out as a card doctor and the alleged card doctor claimed damages such as defamation, business disparagement, etc., their business records will be fair game in a court of law if they claim the negative postings damaged their business reputation.

[Johnny630]

I sit back and reflect, what will the long term outcome of all this be?

The way I look at it to many people with lots of money and influence own HIGH Dollar Cards in holders, Registry Sets/Whether Altered or Not many Collectors do as well. Many have livelihoods or Multi Million Dollar Companies/Business that are dependent on this current card market staying strong or at least holding. None of the mentioned wants their cards to drastically drop in vale. They want the narrative to be, The Hobby Has Never Been Stronger It Keeps Growing and Going Up Ect.
This is why I believe it's All BEING ADDRESSED OR TAKEN CARE OF in the most Non Detrimental Way that has the LEAST DETRIMENTAL EFFECT ON PRICE/VALUE. Sure some will face consequences or changes of leadership, a few firings changes in policy ect. Is this good or bad who knows I can't predict.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I sit back and reflect, what will the long term outcome of all this be?

The way I look at it to many people with lots of money and influence own HIGH Dollar Cards in holders, Registry Sets/Whether Altered or Not many Collectors do as well. Many have livelihoods or Multi Million Dollar Companies/Business that are dependent on this current card market staying strong or at least holding. None of the mentioned wants their cards to drastically drop in vale. They want the narrative to be, The Hobby Has Never Been Stronger It Keeps Growing and Going Up Ect.
This is why I believe it's All BEING ADDRESSED OR TAKEN CARE OF in the most Non Detrimental Way that has the LEAST DETRIMENTAL EFFECT ON PRICE/VALUE. Sure some will face consequences or changes of leadership, a few firings changes in policy ect. Is this good or bad who knows I can't predict.

Any precipitous drop in the market for slabbed cards will be caused by new buyers who have not bought into the fantasy that (in the case of high grade vintage cards) the slab bears any correlation to the true condition of the card. These prospective buyers, who have no stake whether slabbed cards hold their value, will demand to see provenance and/or other corroboration (e.g., a re grade from a company/technique using better methods to weed out alterations) that what they are buying is truly what it is represented to be. And, as has been discussed, even the provenance aspect could be susceptible to manipulation.

IMO the great majority of sophisticated experienced collectors/dealers know that high grade slabbed vintage cards are for the most part not what they are purported to be. And, given this reality, I believe that eventually the truth will come out and be reflected in the market value of such cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Any precipitous drop in the market for slabbed cards will be caused by new buyers who have not bought into the fantasy that (in the case of high grade vintage cards) the slab bears any correlation to the true condition of the card. These prospective buyers, who have no stake whether slabbed cards hold their value, will demand to see provenance and/or other corroboration (e.g., a re grade from a company/technique using better methods to weed out alterations) that what they are buying is truly what it is represented to be. And, as has been discussed, even the provenance aspect could be susceptible to manipulation.

IMO the great majority of sophisticated experienced collectors/dealers know that high grade slabbed vintage cards are for the most part not what they are purported to be. And, given this reality, I believe that eventually the truth will come out and be reflected in the market value of such cards.

I don't follow Corey. If the great majority of sophisticated buyers and sellers already know the truth, then by definition the truth is already out and should already be reflected in the market value. No?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Any precipitous drop in the market for slabbed cards will be caused by new buyers who have not bought into the fantasy that (in the case of high grade vintage cards) the slab bears any correlation to the true condition of the card. These prospective buyers, who have no stake whether slabbed cards hold their value, will demand to see provenance and/or other corroboration (e.g., a re grade from a company/technique using better methods to weed out alterations) that what they are buying is truly what it is represented to be. And, as has been discussed, even the provenance aspect could be susceptible to manipulation.

IMO the great majority of sophisticated experienced collectors/dealers know that high grade slabbed vintage cards are for the most part not what they are purported to be. And, given this reality, I believe that eventually the truth will come out and be reflected in the market value of such cards.

Corey I believe the cat has long been out of the bag. ALL the BIG PLAYERS KNOW/SOPHISTICATED COLLECTORS/DEALERS/AUCTION HOUSES ECT.
It's all about DAMAGE CONTROL/LIMIT LOSS AND MARKET SHARE DEFLECTIONS,REASSURANCE OF CHANGE, WE WILL GET BETTER THIS WONT HAPPEN AGAIN WE HAVE MADE UPGRADES AND IMPROVEMENTS TO OUR PROCESS.....ect. ALL YADAYDA YADAYA

Back door behind the scenes keep quite this will pass these guys need US MORE THEN WE NEED THEM, Auction houses, full time dealers/full time sellers. MANY OF THE COLLECTORS ARE STUPID/(NOT TALKING ABOUT MEMBERS ON THIS BOARD I KNOW BETTER), they are addicted to this they need us they wont bite the hand that feeds, we have the Best Marketing in the Industry it is proven people believe our slabbed cards will always bring them the most money... they love the gamble they love the crack out ect. Just stay hush and push the narrative the collecting and TPGing has never been stronger we are blowing out numbers ect........

TO ME You Can't put the toothpaste back in the tube once it's out it's out. All of this has to be priced in when buying.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't follow Corey. If the great majority of sophisticated buyers and sellers already know the truth, then by definition the truth is already out and should already be reflected in the market value. No?

Fair. I should be clearer. To me, the set registry people who buy the slab and are in it for the ego are not what I would characterize as sophisticated collectors. People I regard as sophisticated collectors wouldn't touch a lot of this stuff.

Second, the new buyers I refer to are collectors who have not yet entered the market. Call it the next generation. They would be entering the market at a different point than when current collectors did. Their perspective about what they are buying and the associated risks might be a lot different.

[1952boyntoncollector]

According to corndog. PWCC is currently selling a re-colored card 1975 Hank Aaron that was prior purchased by Moser etc.. Current bidding is over a $1900+ profit. Im sure its all getting worked out.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...9#post15212859

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

According to corndog. PWCC is currently selling a re-colored card 1975 Hank Aaron that was prior purchased by Moser etc.. Current bidding is over a $1900+ profit. Im sure its all getting worked out.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...9#post15212859

It's all Priced In Rest Easy

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

It's all Priced In Rest Easy

Looks like listing was removed an hour ago. I guess thats the only card in the auction with issues if thats the only card that was removed so we are in luck