First time I’ve been ripped off

[jonvancouver]

Hey guys,
Just thought I’d share an experience with you as this seller continues to sell on the BST here (for now).
I bought a Piper Bat from Kevin (khkco4bls) and the deal for one bat ballooned into 15 bats. Kevin sent me a lot of pictures of his collection and I said that one day I would like to purchase my first vintage baseball.
He proceeded to offer me a Goldsmith baseball that has the word ATLANTIC across the front. The price was 600 dollars, and that was only because I was already purchasing 15 bats. The Atlantic League was 1896 to 1900 and I told him that I would be so happy to add a ball from that era.

Long story short, I asked Brandon Grunbaum to confirm the age of the ball and he tells me that it’s ball from 1926-1932 and it’s worth 50 to 75 bucks. Not 600. Not rare and certainly not of the era I was told.

I write Kevin and simply tell him that the ball isn’t what he said it was and that I’d like a refund. His first response is that he has another one and when it goes to auction in October, he would refund me the difference.

I responded to that saying that waiting until October is too long and that I never would have bought the ball if he told me what it actually was, regardless if he actually knew or not.

He then responds to me “No. You made the deals we all win and lose sometimes you're going to have to wait”

I’ve had countless deals on the forum and every one has been smooth. I’ve never deceived anybody and nor will I ever. I’m thoroughly disappointed that I won’t be refunded but I think it’s fair that everyone knows that when dealing with Kevin, you will not be refunded if unhappy. Heck, he won’t refund me after selling a ball that he completely misrepresented.

I hope that he reconsiders and refunds me my money, but there has been a lot of back and forth and essentially he’s telling me that he knows I’ve been taken but that’s just part of the hobby.
Well it’s certainly not the hobby I want to contribute to.

Rant over.

Jonathan Schwartz

[111gecko]

I guess the immediate question is: you spent $600 on a ball that you did no research on until after you paid for it?
Am I reading this incorrectly?

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by 111gecko

I guess the immediate question is: you spent $600 on a ball that you did no research on until after you paid for it?
Am I reading this incorrectly?

I thinks there's bigger issues than your " immediate question".

[pokerplyr80]

It looks like the seller you've accused has many items listed for sale on this site. If this is all true it doesn't say much for his honestly or credibility. Hopefully he will respond and present his side of this story. Returning the item for a refund if it was misrepresented seems like a logical resolution.

[rholmes]

Originally Posted by 111gecko

I guess the immediate question is: you spent $600 on a ball that you did no research on until after you paid for it?
Am I reading this incorrectly?

Remind me to never buy anything from you.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 111gecko

I guess the immediate question is: you spent $600 on a ball that you did no research on until after you paid for it?
Am I reading this incorrectly?

If I sold you something as authentic and it wasn't would that be your fault?

[jonvancouver]

Originally Posted by 111gecko

I guess the immediate question is: you spent $600 on a ball that you did no research on until after you paid for it?
Am I reading this incorrectly?

After speaking to Kevin over the phone many times, and having many many texts back and forth, there would be no reason to believe he was misrepresenting anything. The prices of the 15 bats were extremely spot on and he came off as trustworthy. In the future, would I buy something like this again without doing research? no way.
In my heart, I believe Kevin was ripped off when he bought the ball originally. And maybe he has too much pride to admit that.

[111gecko]

Saw a few responses and read the original post again.
My bad, I just got hooked on phonics....should have spent more time on it before responding.

[Jeffrompa]

The sellers response is like well we all get ripped off so I'll rip off you too . Totally inappropriate and BS .

[Jason]

Im not sure what your payment method was but that might give you a few different options with regards to the refund.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by 111gecko

I guess the immediate question is: you spent $600 on a ball that you did no research on until after you paid for it?
Am I reading this incorrectly?

If it was being advertised as something it wasn't you shouldn't have to do the research.

At least not off of this site. This is the one site that I feel as though I can trust everyone.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Did Kevin tell you the ball was that old, or did you assume the ball was that old? That part of your story isn't quite clear.

If he told you that, yes you deserve a refund because it was misrepresented. If you assumed that, then you should have done more research.

[jonvancouver]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Did Kevin tell you the ball was that old, or did you assume the ball was that old? That part of your story isn't quite clear.

If he told you that, yes you deserve a refund because it was misrepresented. If you assumed that, then you should have done more research.

Hey David,
He told me that. And then when I told him that Brandon said it wasn't from when he said it was, he said that Brandon doesn't know what he is talking about, I to quote his response "Whoever told you that was worth $75 he's totally wrong the ball is not from the 19 thirties there is a later model of the same type with different type faces that is not as early as that one"
To which Brandon replied to me "Comical, "there's a later model that looks the same"...The stuff these guys come up with. Tell him you talked to me, and show him this image. This is not opinion, this is research and fact."

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jonvancouver

Hey David,
He told me that. And then when I told him that Brandon said it wasn't from when he said it was, he said that Brandon doesn't know what he is talking about, I to quote his response "Whoever told you that was worth $75 he's totally wrong the ball is not from the 19 thirties there is a later model of the same type with different type faces that is not as early as that one"
To which Brandon replied to me "Comical, "there's a later model that looks the same"...The stuff these guys come up with. Tell him you talked to me, and show him this image. This is not opinion, this is research and fact."

Thanks for the reply. Good luck with your refund. Hopefully he'll see the post and make things right.

[glchen]

I hope you get your money back. I do think you have more protection with American Express although I'm not sure how paying via Paypal F/F will affect it. Here's a link: Link

[jonvancouver]

Originally Posted by glchen

I hope you get your money back. I do think you have more protection with American Express although I'm not sure how paying via Paypal F/F will affect it. Here's a link: Link

Thank you for the link.
I will speak to AMEX and see what they can do.

Best,
Jonathan

[shammus]

Originally Posted by jonvancouver

Hey David,
He told me that. And then when I told him that Brandon said it wasn't from when he said it was, he said that Brandon doesn't know what he is talking about, I to quote his response "Whoever told you that was worth $75 he's totally wrong the ball is not from the 19 thirties there is a later model of the same type with different type faces that is not as early as that one"
To which Brandon replied to me "Comical, "there's a later model that looks the same"...The stuff these guys come up with. Tell him you talked to me, and show him this image. This is not opinion, this is research and fact."

Just a thought, maybe you could post a couple clear scans of the ball and then let a few of the other memorabilia experts on the forum weigh in on this one? Then it wouldn't be a case of simply Kevin's word vs. Brandon's. You'd have a much stronger case here if other's could weigh on whether the ball came from the 1896-1900 era vs. the 20s or 30s.

And yes, if he misrepresented the ball to you, that's a clear case of needing to give you a full refund. He needs to make that right.

[7nohitter]

The fact that this ball was being purchased in ADDITION to a large number of bats, and I'm assuming that was no small purchase, and the seller is yanking your chain like this? Unethical and in very poor form.

Over the years I've been on 54, I've seen instances where one's reputation can be eternally tarnished, deservedly so, because of a very poor choice. I truly hope the seller makes this right.

[slidekellyslide]

I second Brian, I would like to see photos of this ball.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

What a douche of a seller. Yeah, Brandon doesn't know what he's talking about, ok. Has a book on the history of the baseball for no reason I guess lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jason.1969]

If the OP is telling the whole story, I'm appalled that no refund has been made. This seems like outright theft.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

The silence (from the seller) is deafening.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

The silence (from the seller) is deafening.

Normally, I would agree, but it is the 4th of July weekend. The guy has been on here forever, let's give him a chance to respond.

[Fred]

Is the second ball being taken to the National the same vintage as the one you purchased? If so, and the seller is now aware of the vintage, why would he try to sell it as an older ball at the National?

[deeg23]

That's pretty shady! I actually PM'd the seller a few days ago about one of his BST listings, but haven't heard anything back. Thanks for posting this and making us all aware. You def deserve a refund!!!!

[jonvancouver]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Normally, I would agree, but it is the 4th of July weekend. The guy has been on here forever, let's give him a chance to respond.

I wholeheartedly agree. It is my belief that he was completely taken when the ball was sold to him, and now he is too proud to admit it. If that isn't the case, then he is a complete scam-artist. He put the ball in an era, and it ends up not being from that era so those are really the only two explanations as to how that could happen.
Look, at the end of the day it isn't 5K or 10K, so I can at least be thankful for that. That being said, I wanted to get as much info on the ball as possible because I was proud to have something like that in my collection. When I sit in my baseball room with my 5 year old son, we talk about the history of the game, and we handle the items because that's how we enjoy it. It's not enjoyable to show him the ball that I got ripped off on.

I gave him a chance to take that out. When I originally emailed him I said that the ball isn't what WE thought. That gives him the out to say "crap, well I must have been lied to when I bought it so return it for a refund and I'm sorry" or some iteration about that.
Instead he said that Brandon doesn't know what he's talking about.
Then I emailed him the PDF reference to show the different Goldsmith logos and their years of usage.
Then he responds that he can refund me the difference after his other ball sells in October.
Then I tell him that it's a little much for me to have to wait until October for a refund.
His response was “No. You made the deals we all win and lose sometimes you're going to have to wait”

THAT is where he crossed the line with me.

It's 100% unacceptable.

[slidekellyslide]

Is the cover of that ball canvas? It knid of appears so which would make it a more a kids playground or carnival type ball. Either way the logo proves it to be much later than what it was sold to you as and you deserve a full refund on it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by jonvancouver

I wholeheartedly agree. It is my belief that he was completely taken when the ball was sold to him, and now he is too proud to admit it. If that isn't the case, then he is a complete scam-artist. He put the ball in an era, and it ends up not being from that era so those are really the only two explanations as to how that could happen.
Look, at the end of the day it isn't 5K or 10K, so I can at least be thankful for that. That being said, I wanted to get as much info on the ball as possible because I was proud to have something like that in my collection. When I sit in my baseball room with my 5 year old son, we talk about the history of the game, and we handle the items because that's how we enjoy it. It's not enjoyable to show him the ball that I got ripped off on.

I gave him a chance to take that out. When I originally emailed him I said that the ball isn't what WE thought. That gives him the out to say "crap, well I must have been lied to when I bought it so return it for a refund and I'm sorry" or some iteration about that.
Instead he said that Brandon doesn't know what he's talking about.
Then I emailed him the PDF reference to show the different Goldsmith logos and their years of usage.
Then he responds that he can refund me the difference after his other ball sells in October.
Then I tell him that it's a little much for me to have to wait until October for a refund.
His response was “No. You made the deals we all win and lose sometimes you're going to have to wait”

THAT is where he crossed the line with me.

It's 100% unacceptable.

I got to an age when people say they will 'pay AFTER this or that' (in this case after he sells a ball in October) i just dont ever accept anymore....we probably here the old 'waiting on my tax refund' excuse..

if you took your money he should have the money RIGHT now to pay back...why does he make you have to be unconfortable waiting for your money when he easily can be the unconfortable one refunding you now...then he can waiting till October to resolve his money issue.......you have bills to pay now...... slow pay with conditions is the same is no pay to me ..

i may get in back and forth on some on some posts..but you will see its never about an actual sale of a card and a dissatisfied buyer...i not sure how you dont refund the money on that issue immediately i know i woudl

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Normally, I would agree, but it is the 4th of July weekend. The guy has been on here forever, let's give him a chance to respond.

Well, he was on the board as of 9 PM CDT tonight, he may not have seen this post, but he was here.

[jason.1969]

The plot thickens...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[jason.1969]

A little off topic but the bats on eBay look pretty nice for their age and for the prices paid.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[jonvancouver]

If I had a little more experience (and probably less respect for my elders as I'm only 33 years old) I would have returned the entire group of bats. But Kevin, I didn't want to 'bug' you and instead chalked it up to my inexperience. The problem is that you've been doing this for a long time. You said that on the phone too. When you told me that you were going to put them all in a single bat bag and ship them to Washington State (I actually live on Bowen Island in British Columbia and my post box in Washington State is about a 60 minute drive for me) I decided to call Greg and see if he wouldn't mind meeting you to pick them up because I was nervous about them rattling around together in a bag with no protection. When I get a bat from Greg it comes in a tube, bubble wrapped, with peanuts on either end, with bubble wrap around the tube and shipped in a big box.Unfortunately he couldn't meet you on the day you were driving to play golf with friends. We took about a week to see if I could make that meeting happen.

When Greg got the bats in hand he called me and said that they were no good. And Greg is the ONLY person I trust when talking about this stuff. He has been around a long time and has never once steered me wrong.
He didn't say they were no good but 'man oh man you are going to make a killing selling these things". As a matter of fact, it would have been easier for him to just reship them to me and hype them up so that I wouldn't have had a bad experience buying from you. He wasted his time unloading them to at least recoup me some of the money.

One of the most discouraging things about you is that after speaking to Brandon, coupled with you having experience in this hobby, you could have sold me even a decent ball that was a pro model for the 600 dollars. You showed me pictures of balls in your collection that I know now to be pro baseballs. To me, it's clear that you flat out ripped me off. The ONE ball you choose to offer me ends up being a dud? What are the odds of that happening? With all those balls you showed me, and their boxes in cubes, you choose to sell me the one ball that ends up being a dud? Come on, I might only be 33 but I have common sense.

I told you on the phone when we spoke the I've been doing this for around 18 months, and that I'm practically brand new in the equipment side of the hobby. I told you that I do this to be able to sit with my 5 year old son and talk about the game. Anyone on this board who has taken a second to have a chat with me would know exactly the kind of person I am, and you took advantage of that person.

At the end of the day, I struggled even posting the original message, because on some baseline, being associated with negativity isn't something I like to be a part of. When I spoke to Leon I told him that I needed some time to think about whether or not to even do it. I know how these things can go. The people that don't know me can certainly come to their own conclusions. However, I gave you a chance to refund the money. I was nice about it. I told you that even though the condition of the bats wouldn't fit in my collection I was ok with it. I wrote that in an email to you. I never ONE TIME emailed you or called asking to return the bats. I had already chalked that up to a loss. The GREAT deal you gave me resulted in a $600 ball worth $50 bucks, and a loss of around $800 on bats that were not properly described.

Let's take it a step further. One of the bats was a Winchester. It was completely cracked. The crack was hidden under grip tape. You never said, one of the bats I'm selling you is completely cracked but the crack is hidden under grip tape so you'd never really know unless you take the tape off..."
You kept that information to yourself. I have no clue how you wouldn't have known that it was cracked, but maybe you didn't know for the same reason you say you didn't know about the baseball. The whole thing stinks.

You know what you did, and now you can undo it. For someone to be in the hobby a long time and take advantage of a new collector is sad. It's something that every other person on this board has NOT done to me.

600 dollars it's peanuts. This whole deal started with a cheap Piper Bat. It developed into a phone conversation where you heard firsthand about my inexperience. Then you sunk your teeth in.

Finally, I fully expect that some members will think I've done something wrong, and that's ok. All I can do is lay out the facts and try to explain my point of view. We are talking about a 600 dollar baseball, sold from an experienced collector to an admitted novice. Those are the facts.

6:37 AM and the kids are up. I check the thread all the time and will answer any other questions that are asked of me.

Jonathan

[jason.1969]

However it all plays out, I think it took real balls to post this.

http://<a href="http://s1249.photobu...[/IMG]</a>

[KingFisk]

Our long national nightmare is over.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[GeorgeBailey2]

Originally Posted by KingFisk

Our long national nightmare is over.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Not bad. Not bad. I do like the empty tub of popcorn better. If only Scarlett's "Popcorn girl" gif had been posted.

[batsballsbases]

Bailey which Bailey? This is Mr. George Bailey. Love the movie. Sorry couldnt resist! This is about all the thread warrants.......

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by GeorgeBailey2

Not bad. Not bad. I do like the empty tub of popcorn better. If only Scarlett's "Popcorn girl" gif had been posted.

Sorry, I started off with Jon Stewart's popcorn gif, needed closure.

[mattjc1983]

Although I'm glad that the buyer ultimately got his refund, is anyone else kind of disappointed this thread is over...it's like, what do I do with this extra hour I just found?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk