2016 Hall of Fame Ballot, Who would you vote for?

[cardsfan73]

Let's pretend we all have a 2016 BBWAA Hall Of Fame Ballot.. You can pick up to 10 ELIGIBLE players. Below is a link to this years ballot. Who are you voting for?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2016.shtml

Be interested to see everyone's picks!

Scott

[bn2cardz]

A list of who I would vote for, not who I think will make it in.

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Ken Griffey
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Larry Walker
Mike Mussina
Sammy Sosa
Mark McGwire

A good tracker as public votes come in:

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?...C7uZHAmcVGWgwE

[Jim65]

Griffey Jr and Piazza.

[packs]

Ken Griffey Jr.
Mike Mussina
Tim Raines
Larry Walker
Fred McGriff

[KCRfan1]

In no particular order:

McGwire
Griffey
Clemons
Bonds
Piazza
Bagwell
Walker
McGriff
Kent
Raines

Interesting that none of us have selected a reliever yet.

[JCC]

Piazza
Bagwell
Schilling
Clemens
Bonds
Smith
McGwire
Sosa
Griffey
Hoffman

[jason.1969]

Griffey, Jr.
Raines

[glynparson]

Barry Bonds
Ken Griffey Jr
Roger Clemens
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines
Allan Trammell
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Sammy Sosa

Do not cae if they juiced and I honestly believe Bagwell juiced go to the video for before and after shots.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

Based off public opinion. Run a Google search.

I did run a google search. I am not up-to-date on all the PED suspensions so I had to run one before commenting. That is when I realized there was no reason to suspect him other than...

Originally Posted by packs

It may be circumstantial and guilt by association...

Who are we to use assumptions to judge people? I am just not ok to accuse someone when no investigation, testing, or even name leaks have pointed to someone. Just because someone got larger in their 20s?

[packs]

There are countless stories about Bagwell addressing PED suspicions. I'm not sure what it was you searched to come up with nothing. Also voters are the ones to make assumptions about players, because voting someone into the HOF is an opinion. So in the court of public opinion, assumptions and speculation come into play when rendering an opinion. You're not making a legal argument to get into the HOF, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

There are countless stories about Bagwell addressing PED suspicions. I'm not sure what it was you searched to come up with nothing.

Google search: PED Bagwell

Do I need more key words to find the "evidence"? Just because people speculate and asked him still is nothing. I don't find any more evidence than if I type in "PED Griffey". I didn't say there wasn't speculation, but I said there was no evidence and has never been named (outside of speculation/assumptions).

Originally Posted by packs

Also voters are the ones to make assumptions about players, because voting someone into the HOF is an opinion. So in the court of public opinion, assumptions and speculation come into play when rendering an opinion.

I know the voters make assumptions, but it doesn't make it right.

Originally Posted by packs

You're not making a legal argument to get into the HOF, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Why does it have to be a legal argument to know that it is morally and ethically wrong to judge someone based off assumptions? Legal standards were suppose to be based off what should be common decency. I don't have to be in a court room to be decent towards a fellow human being.

All this said I am not declaring that Bagwell was clean, but who are we to say he wasn't just because someone else made the assumption and it is the popular belief even without a shred of evidence?

He did use muscle builders, but none of them were banned at the time of use. That is what we KNOW and if someone wants to use that against him, than fine at least they are using facts.

[Beatles Guy]

Bagwell was also top 10 in MVP voting six times while winning it once. I think was impresses me most are two things I didn't remember; he stole over 200 bases in his career (including over 30 per season twice) and averaged 114 runs scored for his career.

To me, he was the Frank Thomas of the NL with better speed. Thomas hung around a little too long and padded his numbers, Bagwell hung it up a 37 with something still in the tank.

[KCRfan1]

If Ortiz gets in the Hall, that may open the flood gates for other PED users to get into the Hall. Ortiz fails a test, and comments " I don't know what happened "? Yeah, bewildering isn't it. It's an unsolved mystery. Bagwell has been convicted in the court of public opinion due to the era he played, with nothing to back up PED usage, other than some people " thinking ".

[jason.1969]

Another way to view Bagwell is to say his sick numbers really weren't that notable during the era in which he played. Granted most of those inflated numbers of the era were from juicers, but nonetheless...

[jason.1969]

Even as a math nerd, I'm not sold on defensive metrics. For modern players, I'd rather look at Gold Glove voting.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

Even as a math nerd, I'm not sold on defensive metrics. For modern players, I'd rather look at Gold Glove voting.

People want to act like first base is so easy to play. Granted, it's not as demanding catcher or short, but there's still a lot of responsibilities.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

Even as a math nerd, I'm not sold on defensive metrics. For modern players, I'd rather look at Gold Glove voting.

Well, that's fallible, too. Derek Jeter won a Gold Glove in 2005 with a -1.9 dWAR. His defense, over the course of the season, essentially lost two games for the Yankees.

Here's the problem I have with trying to gauge defensive performance. Unlike offense, where you can just look in the box score from 1927, and see what Babe Ruth our Lou Gehrig might have done at the plate, there's no way to accurately gauge how well they did in the field. Modern defensive metrics toss out terms like ultimate zone rating, range factor, range factor per 9 innings, total zone fielding runs, total zone fielding runs above average, etc. A lot of these are incorporated into each other, and unless you have a PhD in Sabermetrics, it's something you just look at, and move on. I'd like to delve more deeply into how these numbers are arrived at, but now's not the time.

How can you accurately gauge what Lou Gehrig's range factor was 88 years ago unless you have a DeLorean, and can go back in time to watch him play all of his games? While the formulas might be sound, the data that is going into the calculations has to be, at best, highly suspect. Using the Keith Hernandez example again, I don't get how his glove essentially won a half game over the course of his career, when he's widely considered the preeminent defensive first baseman of the modern era. Again, I watched him play, though admittedly, the majority of my exposure to his play was during his time with the Mets, as I was too young when he was in St. Louis. He still won five Gold Gloves in New York, so he was doing something right. But unless I'm completely stupid, and reading the information incorrectly, I see that in 1987 and 1988, seasons in which Hernandez won his final two Gold Gloves, he was worth a combined -0.8 dWAR. His best season ever, if going strictly by dWAR, was 1983, when he had a 0.8 dWAR. He won a Gold Glove in 1978 with a -0.6 dWAR, and most of his totals in subsequent Gold Glove winning seasons were something like 0.1, or 0.2 dWAR.

What?

Ozzie Smith had some dWAR seasons with figures in the +3 and +4 range. I know shortstop is a more difficult position to play, but Hernandez played the position in ways that were never done before. You can't tell me that Keith, who would charge home plate when he thought a bunt was on, didn't save a lot of runs by essentially taking that play out of the opposing manager's book. The guy is famous for diving all over the field, making spectacular catches. And the sum of all his defensive plays, during which he won 11 Gold Gloves, is about a half win for his teams.

Look at Roberto Clemente, arguably the greatest defensive right fielder in the history of the game. Are we really believe that in 1966, his dWAR was 1.3, in 1967 it was a -0.1, and in 1968, it was a 2.5?

Clemente's defense was worth 12 wins over 18 seasons? The guy won 12 Gold Gloves, tied with Willie Mays for the most ever by an outfielder, and he was worth only 12 wins defensively in nearly two decades.

I'm baffled. Kirby Pucket has a 3.3 dWAR his rookie year, and doesn't win a Gold Glove. Two years later, he has a -0.6 dWAR, and wins his first of 6 Gold Gloves.

Something is terribly wrong with this metric.

[djrhanover]

Piazza & Griffey. That's it.

[Topps206]

I'm looking forward to Monday's announcement in hopes that Dahlen cracks the 75%.

[packs]

I have my fingers crossed for Stovey.