What baseball person do you like the least?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Lets see - Who can forget Cobb and his agression? t
There is the Ol' Perfesser who taught Yogi to talk the way he does. Connie Mack who cashed out some of the best teams ever. Comiskey who was so cheap that he created the Black Sox - which had no wrong doing associated with that name, initially, McGraw who let Hack Wilson be picked up on waivers, then traded Lefty O'Doul and Rogers Hornsby for noone apparent. Steinbrenner who an entire generation learned to not love. The 'roid boys who are taking the rap for boosting their performance chemically, and way more.

Who do you like least?

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Posted By: Joann

Bill Veeck, hands down. Eddie Gaedel and Disco Demo Night? Oh and those hideous uniforms. Pfffft. Worst example ever of someone not just letting the game be the game, and sell itself. He would hang a string of chile-shaped patio lights on the Mona Lisa thinking more people would look.

J

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Posted By: jay behrens

Don't forget Cap Anson and his racist ways that help to keep Blacks out of baseball for a very long time.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

If I were a huge Red Sox fan I'd probably dislike Harry Frazee the most.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Yes Jay,

Although a significant contributor to the techniques and strategies of the game, and quite an athlete, Anson is the baseball person who I like the least. And my Tobin Baby Anson, with him crying because he got hit with the ball, along with a J. Robinson, and a Branch Rickey (yet to be selected) aptly immediately preceeds my chronological assembly of previous Negro Leaguers who made it to the bigs (which of course include Banks, Aaron, Mays and others of similar and lesser stature).

Phew, I don't like what history he robbed us of. How non-financially richer each of us could be!

Sorry, for that outburst. Stifle yourself, Gil. Yes, Archie.

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Posted By: John S

I am no fan nor a collector of the Black Sox players. Blame whomever you want, they cheated (and I understand that some of the eight may been innocent and other guilty players behind the scenes were not punished) and their greed could have destroyed the game. It baffles me how their actions and the entire scenario have been romanticized. Many will argue that they were victims, but it was not like these guys were starving. Compare their salaries with the average American in 1919.

Maybe eighty years from now they will be writing books and Broadway musicals about the poor mistreated steroid abusers of the early 21st century.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

Not the Nantucket Nectar guys: Bonds, McGuire, Sosa for what they did to one of baseball's most important records. I also like least those national media guys who insist on defending these frauds. As Steve Somers of WFAN radio in New York says, "I mean, look already."

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Posted By: J Levine

Mr. Mint.

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

John- There were many players that cheated in the early 1900's. Many of the players and their cheating has been well documented, but not all were kicked out of baseball. This has been the case since the game began. There are far more players who have cheated that were not kicked out than have been kicked out. It was very common for players to take money or to throw a game back then. It was the World Series that had people up in arms. I would say that the Owners were more to blame than the players.

My least favorite player is Bonds. Honestly, it is his attitude and general dislike for the fans that burns me up. These guys today are making millions of dollars, and they act like they deserve more. IMO they deserve less!

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Posted By: E Stevens

I think he is flattered by being named a "baseball person".

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Posted By: John S

Dan,

As I stated in my original post many others were likely involved, not only with the 1919 Series fix but since the advent of the professional game. The owners definitely had the upper hand in the days of the reserve clause and these players were not making orders of magnitude more than the average worker (as they do today). However, they cheated out of greed, not necessity. The players that cheat today (steroids) are doing it for the same basic reason. More homeruns equals a bigger paycheck.

My problem is how these men (whether it is the Black Sox players or Tris Speaker or Cobb) are given Robinhood status. The Black Sox players cheated, they were caught, and punished. They do not deserve to be martyred or portrayed as victims of an oppressive system.

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Posted By: Turner Engle

Chase was know for his great glovework on the field, but also threw many games in his time for some easy cash. He also bet agianst his own team.

Once he was caught he was banned for life.

Turner

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Posted By: jay behrens

Please spare us the ramaticized love of the HR record. All records are meant to be broken. As was pointed out, cheated has occured since the day the game started. So what are we supposed to do, erase all the records? Sure, Ruth, Aaron, et al didn't have the benefit of steroids, but they also didn't have face pitchers on steroids either. Everyone acts like the steroids thing exists only for hitters, yet the mojority of players that have been caught are pitchers.

The game changes and records are get broken. Get over it.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Despite the fact that I think both of them are exceptional baseball players, Barry Bonds and Pete Rose certainly have personalities that make them exceptionally unlikable.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, your point is well taken, but notice how Bonds's name comes up here but not McGwire or Sosa. While these guys cheated just as much as Bonds, they weren't nearly as malignant. I think Bonds is especially nauseating because he cheats, was caught (via a landslide of direct and indirect evidence) and yet he still cries 'woe is me' and is nasty to the fans. At least McGwire slunk away (as did Sosa to a lesser extent).

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

I knew I'd fish you and your irrational defense of the steroid guys out. You ever hear of the old maxim that "two wrongs don't make a right"? And just who are the steroid pitchers these poor babies had to bat against? How about a few names? One name? By the way, let me suggest having someone help you with your spelling.

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Posted By: Mark Turner

********* BARRY BONDS *********

reason why...


1) Cheated to get most of his homeruns
2) blames the press about everything
3) thinks his sh%t don't stink
4) racist as they come, he was quoted saying he wants to break babe ruth's homerun # because he is white but does not care about hank aaron's # because he is black.
5) is not a team player

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Posted By: dennis

anson,his racism kept blacks out and landis for keeping the ball rolling on this issue. joann easy on ol' bill veeck remember this is a game and bill loved it. early baseball was full of showmen,with the likes of stengel,altrock,satchel paige and lots more....characters who had fun.

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Posted By: JimB

Not to defend the steroid-users, but Ruth and Aaron also faced a lot tired pitchers in the late innings that batters rarely face today.
JimB

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Posted By: steve f

The Ava Braun of Cincinatti, Margie Schott

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

Being 61, I can tell you that they went to the bullpen back in Hank's day. Fair point with the Babe, though. One thing to factor in is that today the umps don't call the high strike. As a Ted Williams fan, I wonder how Ted would have hit if he only had to cover the small strike zone (although Ted mused about how the splitter would be tough for him to cope with). By the way, Jim, I was checking out Matty's pitching stats this morning and was blown away.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Sorry to rain on your parade, but I'd rather talk about the person I like the most: Ernie Banks. I spent several hours with Mr. Cub at the PGA a few weeks ago in Chicago, and will tell you that God doesn't make them any finer. He's a Happy man who never complains, and is always happy to accomadate the fans. Too bad they can't clone Ernie, because we'd all be better off. Be well Brian

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Posted By: Jason

Pete Rose

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Posted By: David Vargha

Bud Selig

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Cat

Ozzie Guillen is such a j-ckass. He's an embarrassment to baseball.





________________

http://www.audiocomedy.net/soundboards/jacket.shtml

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Just think, without Ozzie we'd be starved for sound clips of some of the more colorful commentary ever provided by a MLB manager...

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Posted By: JimCrandell

John,

I agree with you:

Bonds, McGwire and Sosa are a good place to start for most hated for what they have done.

Jim

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Posted By: DJ

1) Barry Bonds for obvious reasons.
2) Mark McGwire for making me believe he was a hero.
3) Marge Schott was simply an awful human being.
4) Bud Selig is simply horrible for baseball.
5) Mr. Mint, sure let's throw him on here!
6) John Rocker is a punk.
7) Rafael Palmeiro is a liar in hiding.
8) Kevin Mitchell is a bad guy.
9) The Hall of Fame voters for not allowing Buck O'Neil entry.

Everyone in the turn of the century were racists and more probably gambled for or against their own teams as an easy way to make a couple bucks.

Ty Cobb would be fine with all these medicines they got today. He didn't hate a group or a person, he basically hated everyone. He was an equal opportunity hatist. Sure he hated some races more than others, but he was the original little ball of hate.

Spare us Jay, we went through the whole nonsensical steroid rant already with your beliefs in a 300+ thread, which you were most certainly a minority to.

#61 is a magical number and if you subtract the cheaters, the late Maris still owns the record. Records are meant to be broken without chemicals. I feel for Hank Aaron, skinny little slugger.

DJ

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Not to defend the steroid-users, but Ruth and Aaron also faced a lot tired pitchers in the late innings that batters rarely face today.
-
Being 61, I can tell you that they went to the bullpen back in Hank's day.

=

John K: being 61 myself, I betcha a quick review of the stats would indicate that pitchers labored a lot longer in a typical 50s game than they do now.

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Posted By: Cat

If you look at the collective ERAs of the non-closer relievers, they have an ERA of 4.92. They may not be tired but they aren't any good either.



________________

http://www.audiocomedy.net/soundboards/jacket.shtml

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Posted By: Ray Anderson

1. George Steinbrenner - living proof why we NEED to have a salary cap in the MLB
2. Pete Rose - I used to marvel (and still do) at his numbers. By FAR one of the top five greatest hitters of all time. I used to be one of those preachers of "He should be in the Hall!" until I saw him on Jay Leno one night and realized he's a complete ass. Now, while I still think he should be in the Hall, I don't let that be known too often.
3. Bud Selig - crooked like a politician and turns a deaf ear to fans

The list could go on, but for now, those are my top three...

edited to add:

DJ - your quotes listed below are my thoughts exactly

"Everyone in the turn of the century were racists and more probably gambled for or against their own teams as an easy way to make a couple bucks.

Ty Cobb would be fine with all these medicines they got today. He didn't hate a group or a person, he basically hated everyone. He was an equal opportunity hatist. Sure he hated some races more than others, but he was the original little ball of hate."

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

And while Im out on a limb anyway, let me take an unpopular stance which I believe.

Kalafarski
(Login whycough) The Juice Guys September 9 2006, 5:24 PM

Not the Nantucket Nectar guys: Bonds, McGuire, Sosa for what they did to one of baseball's most important records.


John, et. al. I do not believe for an instant that the juice has as significant an impact on player performance as what we have seen. I believe that following the strike baseball needed to get their ratings up, and they did. Then they hid their travesty behind this trumped up scandal. Think. Don't yell at me, think.

Baseball did it, across the board. Everyones totals were up. The ball or something else (including the players) were juiced. But it was not primarilly the players.

OK now yell at me.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

Good point on the complete game being more abundant in Hank's day: all but extinct now. Many more teams now, plus the lower mound after 1968 stacks the deck in favor of the hitter.

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Posted By: DJ

I will be honest with you guys, growing up in the seventies, I lived and loved baseball. Today I watch it but it doesn't mean to me what it once did. What they play today isn't the baseball I remember.

Remember when baseball players led the league with 30 home runs? I remember when George Scott led the league in I think 1977. Some scrub for the Brewers named Bill Hall has that and is he even in the top twenty for home runs?

Random Comparison.

1974 NL:
Mike Schmidt-PHI 36
Johnny Bench-CIN 33
Jimmmy Wynn-LAD 32
Tony Perez-CIN 28
Cesar Cedeno-HOU 26

2006 NL: (up to date)
Ryan Howard-PHI 56
Albert Pujols-STL 44
Alfonso Soriano-WAS 44
Adam Dunn-CIN 40
Carlos Beltran-NYM 39
Lance Berkman-HOU 37
Carlos Delgado-NYM 37
Carlos Lee-MIL 36* combines
Andruw Jones-ATL 32
Aramis Ramirez-CHI 32
Jason Bay-PIT 31
Bill Hall-MIL 30
Adam LaRoche-ATL 29
Ken Griffey Jr-CIN 26
Matt Holiday-COL 26
Chase Utley-PHI 26

with 30+ games to go.

Ask yourselves the following question: How many home runs would Babe Ruth hit today?

He:
1) never had the medicine to repair himself.
2) never had the opportunity to bulk up illegally with pills.
3) never had the opportunity to know ahead of time what the pitcher's
tendancies were with computers and scouts.
4) never faced this many teams, shallow below average pitchers.
5) never faced eighteen year old that weren't ready.
6) never played in Coors field or met the right porch in Fenway.
7) never faced Jose Lima.
8) never traveled in comfort.
9) never met these new tight baseballs. A friend of mine who plays in the
Big leagues, not a star, says there is a huge difference from several
years ago.

I could go on...but Fresno State is coming on shortly.

DJ

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Bonds was hated long before the steroids so now its just an extra excuse,he would be on this list anyway even if the whole scandal never came up.Its ridiculous to single him out or anyone out for it tho because so many people did it.If you think theyre the biggest or only users then you have your head buried in the sand.Steroids and pills were a league wide problem and probably are still used on a lower level so its stupid when people pin it on one person.Bonds,McGwire etc didnt invent them,werent the first to take them and they werent against the rules. Sorry it bothers people because of the HR record being so sacred but if they broke the sac fly record on it no one would give a crap.

If you want to blame Bonds breaking the HR record on anyone,why not blame the umpires who gave him a strike zone so small he always got a good pitch to hit when he swung,coupled with the fact he crowded the plate with a huge arm gaurd and never got thrown at,and he also had the best eye in baseball ever rarely swinging out of the strike zone,add in the watered down pitching and the harder bats and tighter wound baseballs and you have your extra power. If he had a regular strike zone like everyone else and pitchers threw inside to him without that ridiculous arm brace then he wouldve had zero chance of reaching even 60 homers or putting up the crazy numbers he put up over that stretch.

I wasnt the only one who followed the home run chase that year for Bonds but somehow im the only one that can look past the hatred that blinds common sense and can see all the factors that help him.

Why not put Roger Maris in the most hated for living off one fluke season during an expansion season and ruining Ruth's rightful place in history? That makes about as much sense as putting all the steroid blame on Bonds

Also someone asked for a pitchers name,how about Ryan Franklin,theres one for you,want more? Do you hear anything about Franklin and steroids? nope,does he have to answer questions all the time,have accusations thrown at him wherever he goes? nope.....why not? Why should Ryan Franklin get off easy,is he above everyone else now that he got caught and served his little suspension? Where is the hate for him,he mightve cost another pitcher a major league career who never got a chance,mightve cost some player a record he will never have a chance to match all because of an assumed result of the effects of steroids.

All the Bonds whining about steroids is garbage when people are just using that as a better reason to hate him.I dont hate or blame anyone for using steroids because i dont know every person who did it and i certainly(as well as everyone else here) dont know how it affected them.All the supposed help steroids give can hurt people elsewhere which is just as important to a team,make guys slower and worse fielders because of the extra bulk,wouldnt that take away the supposed help they got with home run stats? Afterall its a team game,not a HR contest,people need to stop glorifying one of the least important stats,runs,rbi's, on base %,ERA,WHIP are all more important.

Finally,I know you can ask Carlos Baerga and Ruben Sierra if they thought steroids were a good idea because both of them bulked up about 20 lbs of muscle one offseason and couldnt swing the bat right for awhile but i dont feel sorry for them because it didnt help them!

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Barry Bonds...an egotistic cheating racist.

And as to the "facing pitchers on steroids" crap,....if half the pitchers he faced were on steroids, that still leave 50% of his at bats facing non-enhanced guys. A big edge.

Frank

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Posted By: jay behrens

John, you obviously haven't read too much about the steroid scandal if you don't know that most of the postive tests are from pitchers. It's been noted in numerous articles. To paraphrase, If you don't believe me, you can look it up.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: joe

I never liked Tom Monahan(sp) when he owned the Detroit Tigers, especially when he flew in on his helicopter for the games. He would land on a helo pad right next to Hoot Robinson's bar on Trumbull Ave. Way to much flare for me.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: steve yawitz

I've always hated Pete Rose.

http://imageevent.com/yawie99

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Posted By: Joe_G.

1) Barry Bonds
2) Cap Anson

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Posted By: DJ

Jay, I would like to see your complete list and numbers, because I think I still have hitters ahead of pitchers. Especially in the Major leagues, not counting minor leagues (even though looking over the list, I see more hitters than pitchers) and sans those minor leaguers that were released.

I can name off a few pitchers, but players like Juan Rincon, Christian Parker and Rafael Betancourt aren't exactly names you care about. You care about Rafael Palmeiro, Jason Giambi, Sammy Sosa (why is he hiding?), Gary Sheffield, Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Matt Lawton, Jose Canseco, Alex Sanchez, Ken Caminiti, David Segui and possibly Juan Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez, Bret Boone, Miguel Tejada and Dave Martinez, the last four listed in Canseco's book. Where are the pitchers in this All-Star lineup? I know Jay, you have your own beliefs which you feel strong about certain players that only you believe to be on the juice. If I see those names anywhere listed outside of your avitar and this Forum, I'll take your thoughts more seriously.

I remember reading somewhere that one of those minor leaguers busted said he used it to patch up a shoulder tear coming off the DL and noticed that his fastball increased from 84 miles per hour to 88 miles per hour. The benefits for hitters to use it FAR out weigh the pitchers and for older players, it's a desparate way to hang on. For new players, it's basically a good idea to get bank.

One of my best friends spent around a dozen years years as a head trainer. I know some things that I can't reveal. But he told me that one player had hit some six home runs and was about to be released. He took to the needle and hit twice that and got a nice increase at the end of the year. If he didn't take the needle, he would be struggling somewhere in the minors or become an unwanted commodity. That player is no longer in baseball, but it bought him a couple more years.

DJ

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Posted By: jay behrens

It was a year or so ago when Jason Starks or someone else on ESPN.com had a breakdown of pitchers and hitters that TESTED POSITIVE. I'm sure it's changed some since then, but even if it's a 50-50 split, that still means higher percentage of pitchers than hitters are doing it since most rosters have a 14:10 ratio.

You have an impressive list of hitters, but Palmerio and Lawton are the ONLY ONES that tested positive. I believe that Roger Clemens has been regular user, but I don't consider him as part of the group of players that have tested positive. Bonds, Mac, Sosa and others you've listed have NOT TESTED POSITIVE. So please, don't confuse players you believe have used but HAVE NOT tested positive with those that HAVE tested postive.

As for who I believe is or isn't juicing, I think they all are and I don't really care one way or the other if they are. What annoys me is people who look at the situation with blinders on and choose to believe only what they want to believe and act as if no one ever cheated before to gain an advantage over other players.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Warhoundr69

I was a Beer Vender at Veterans Stadium back in 1979. Pete Rose was the nastiest ball player I ever met. I started as a vender in 1968 at Connie Mack Stadium. In all my experience with ML ballplayers that passed through Philly from 1968 through 1982 I never met a more self centered arrogant POS than Pete Rose. He doesn't deserve to be in the HOF.
I collect vintage Non - Sports Cards.I enjoy lurking here & learning about old cards.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The baseball players who juice know it's cheating and know it's wrong. That's why users deny taking it, even back when it wasn't against the rules and when given immunity from presecution by Congress.

As my mom would say to me when I was a kid, "If you didn't think it was wrong, then why'd you deny doing it?"

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Posted By: Cobby33

And I suppose we've seen Bonds take steroids...While it was banned?
I think not.

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Posted By: Joann

I agree Jay - I have thought that about Clemens for awhile now. He at least physically looks like a typical user - could be Giambi's twin sometimes I think. But for some reason ... not a whisper of an accusation or anything. I've thought that has to be intentional on someone's part - baseball, media, someone. Bonds has been hounded for two or three years running, but the golden boy is strangely ignored.

I'm not saying Clemens is or isn't. Sadly, that is almost irrelevant anymore. I'm just saying that for some reason, his name is never mentioned in even rampant speculation.

As to Bonds? Maybe so and maybe not. I really couldn't care less. For some reason the steriod issue just doesn't light any fires for me - it lands more in the area of idle wondering, if even that.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

J

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Posted By: DJ

Jay, it's not about blinders but it's about what one and only one person believes to be the truth. When I was in second grade, a guy named Jay (I kid you not, do you have a brother named Homer?) once argued with me that because you don't see it, it often happens. His example being that is is feasible that there is a person that often travels to the surface of the sun. That there are people that can make one giant leap to the moon.

I honestly believe a lot of people are cheating (if not all, I agree) as well today and I don't care either. It's so easy to cheat the system and it always has been and unless someone admits it, you will never know the truth.

As far as the list above goes, people have been talking about these individuals, including Canseco who has been right on so far. Is Bonds going to come out and admit that he's a fraud, a liar, a cheat despite binders full of proof that rival those binders that guy had to prove his T206 Wagner was actually legit?

C'mon though, don't be naive to think that because they weren't caught, means they didn't cheat with guys like Bonds and even say Bret Boone. I mean Boone admitted to Canseco that he did it. He had those amazing numbers for two years and when testing came into play, his numbers dropped and he's out of baseball. Same as Sosa. A boy has a paint can in his hand, paint on his hands and there is fresh artwork on the wall. Are you supposed to say that he didn't do it, despite all the proof in front of him and witnesses that say he did it?

As far as Clemens goes, I find it doubtful knowing what I know (from trainers) that a pitcher would find benefits in using.His name hasn't been echoed oustide of here and I'm again, doubtful.

DJ

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Posted By: runscott

Laziness is a huge turn-off for me, so a few of these guys are probably nice people, but I've seen them loaf so often that I grew to dislike them. Out of the modern players my most disliked are Albert Bell (jerk), Pete Rose (jerk,liar), Barry Bonds (too many faults to list), George Foster (lazy), Fred McGriff (biggest loafer on the planet).

Vintage - you have to guess here since all you have is 2nd-hand news to go by, but: Kennesaw Mountain Landis (unfair to a point of ruining lives), Johnny Evers (sour), Cap Anson (racist). I would have to look them up, but ALL of the players who were blatantly racist toward Jackie Robinson and other blacks when they first came up.


It's really a LOT easier to list players you like!

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

On Mar 1, '99, Anabolic Steroids without a script were banned by the Federal Gov't. On Jun 7 '91, MLB issued an edict (Fay Vincent) forbidding their use under strict penalty (to include being banned from MLB). The fact that the union would not agree to testing does not mean that users after this time were not in violation of the rules of MLB. Bonds WAS using while they were banned.

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Posted By: Cobby33

John: I don't disgaree that there's a good possibility that Bonds was using. However, the "proof" that he was is terribly weak. All there exists, is illegally-obtained Grand Jury testimony when Bonds suggested he used two substances which apparently contain some form of steroid. That's it. And, using this in a light most favorable to him, he didn't "know" they contained these substances. (At this point, there's no evidence to prove otherwise). Other than this, there is nothing beyond pure conjecture, to link him to use. I wonder why guys like Canseco and others who have played with Bonds (i.e. Kent) haven;t blown the whistle on him? If it was that obvious, don't you think there would be more, competent, evidence?

So- with regard to Bonds- weigh the evidence. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but must we make statements assuming it's unequivocally true?