Using Trade At Card Shows

[Johnny630]

I’ve been to four major shows this year. I’m amazed at the amount of material card attendees bring to trade with dealers or other attendees. They’re carting in or carrying lock boxes suit, cases, pelican boxes ect. Has anyone else noticed this trend ?

[Exhibitman]

There's always been a steady stream of sellers and traders at shows; it's often the profit of the day. We've had nearly two years of collecting w/o shows, so I bet there's a lot of sell/trade boxes that are filled to the brim right now.

[hcv123]

Always looking to trade for or purchase new inventory. In fact some of the best shows I have had, I have bought more than I have sold!

[mrreality68]

I noticed those things but actually thought it was either dealers bring stock to their tables or people using them to bring carry there purchases home.
I have seen many collectors sit for hours at tables going card by card and walk out with piles.
Pretty interesting and sometimes the cards they find that they have been looking for years for and they are beyond excited.

[Johnny630]

It’s my belief that attendees are using trade in because they’re low on funds from the FOMO Late Feb-July Run. Or they way overpaid for their cards and want to trade around their losses.

[ClementeFanOh]

I've been to a couple live shows in the past 5 months. I take trade material
with me that is legitimate. If I ask about trades and the seller doesn't even
express curiosity ("what do you have"?), it's not likely I'll buy from him. I
went to a show in August and told a seller I had a graded Christy Mathewson
I'd be willing to trade. He told me "not many people know Christy Mathewson".
I looked at him like he had rocks in his head and walked away...

Finally, I don't propose trades because I lack money. I propose trades for
two reasons. First, I may like a card but it doesn't fit my specific wants, so I'll
propose a trade rather than a buy. Second, the seller's asking price may be so
far off that even negotiation won't make it right- so, I ask if he'll trade. Some
say yes, some say no

Trent King

[packs]

I've always brought cards with the intention of trying to make a trade but I haven't actually pulled off a trade at a show. It's too difficult to negotiate when you're not working with a collector.

[parkplace33]

I think most collectors bring cards to trade with other collectors. Dealers probably don't want to deal with the hassle of trading and would only buy outright for items they can sell.

[ClementeFanOh]

Packs- definitely agree it's tough to trade with someone who is merely a
dealer, not a collector; specifically, the dealers who have a limited
knowledge of the hobby itself. I've done it successfully at shows with good
folks, though.

Parkplace33- I think you're illustrating a point for me. Any dealer who thinks
it's a "hassle" to look at a handful of cards- at a card SHOW- is part of the
problem. Lots of savvy collectors know dealers expect to come out ahead in
trades to make it worthwhile and, like me, are willing to take the financial
loss to acquire a card they want more. So if, for example, I'm willing to
trade a $150 card that a dealer can sell, for his $120 card that I need, I'd
say it's not a hassle. It's away for both to win. Too many dealers close off
this possibility from the start at shows, despite being voluntarily present at a
venue where the behavior is historically normal and valid. Trent King

[jcmtiger]

Been going on since the 70’s.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Lots of savvy collectors know dealers expect to come out ahead in
trades to make it worthwhile and, like me, are willing to take the financial
loss to acquire a card they want more.

This couldn’t be further from the truth. While YOU may understand this, the majority does not.

[soxinseven]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

I noticed those things but actually thought it was either dealers bring stock to their tables or people using them to bring carry there purchases home.
I have seen many collectors sit for hours at tables going card by card and walk out with piles.
Pretty interesting and sometimes the cards they find that they have been looking for years for and they are beyond excited.

Most collectors are actually part time dealers now. It seems like every collector has a trade or sale pile and they aren't just going in a different direction. The cards were bought to hopefully turn a profit and acquire something else.

[Jason]

Trades are the way to go. Unfortunately for me they are few and far between. Had a nice one about 6 months ago.

[ClementeFanOh]

Notfast- what "this" are you referring to? That dealers expect to come out ahead in
trades, or that collectors are willing to take a "loss" in the trade to get what they want?
Both are in fact true- at least, in 40 years of collecting I've consistently observed it.
People (collectors and sellers) know what they have financially in their cards, which gives them room to make deals of all sorts- trade, sale, buy. If the "majority" doesn't
understand this simple concept, then the majority have their heads in a bucket. Trading
is a massively popular way to acquire cards, so those who don't accept it out of hand
are shorting themselves in the end. You can't make someone trade, but when someone
dismisses it from the start, they limit themselves. Trent King

[JeremyW]

Trades are the way to go. I even started a thread a while ago. Unfortunately, trading usually requires talking to people, which people don't like to do anymore.

[Johnny630]

Let me know when a major auction house takes trade....wonder if I could trade cards for my winnings.

[ClementeFanOh]

The topic was trading at shows...Trent King

[icurnmedic]

Concerning not having the $$, sometimes isn't that what the cards represents?

I like to trade occasionally.

If it is a big time acquisition that I really want , I am more than willing to "lose" some $$.

A 1952 Topps Mantle I traded for around 6 years back, I probably lost $2500 in trade at the time. Well worth it , sold 2 years later for $5k more than the "trade" and now ,of course, wish I had it back.

Trading is fun , but be realistic , sometimes you may lose for a card you really want, but in the end , do you really "lose"?

[midmo]

I've made plenty of trades at shows as a customer (and as an occasional dealer) over the years. I always try to bring a pack of stuff. Been doing it since the 80's, nothing new.

I've also made a few here on Net54. A memorable one is when I traded a 1954 Bowman set for a T206 red Cobb. It was a great deal that worked out for both of us.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Notfast- what "this" are you referring to? That dealers expect to come out ahead in
trades, or that collectors are willing to take a "loss" in the trade to get what they want?
Both are in fact true- at least, in 40 years of collecting I've consistently observed it.
People (collectors and sellers) know what they have financially in their cards, which gives them room to make deals of all sorts- trade, sale, buy. If the "majority" doesn't
understand this simple concept, then the majority have their heads in a bucket. Trading
is a massively popular way to acquire cards, so those who don't accept it out of hand
are shorting themselves in the end. You can't make someone trade, but when someone
dismisses it from the start, they limit themselves. Trent King

The majority of people do not expect the dealer to “win” the trade. That’s why trading is very hard.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by notfast

The majority of people do not expect the dealer to “win” the trade. That’s why trading is very hard.

If by win you mean double up. I used to do a lot of trading at shows on both sides of the table. My experience has been as values have gone it has become more difficult to trade. Many people aren't happy just getting the better end of the deal, they are trying to crush the other person.

[Foo3112]

I have been attending card shows actively since 2011 and nobody was carrying pelican type cases back then. Even when I attended the 2019 National, it wasn't enough as to where anyone really noticed. Fast forward to the 2021 National, it felt like everybody had a pelican case full of cards. I would attribute this to trade nights going on all over every night. Even at the small local show I attend, people are carrying them now. The game has changed.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Foo3112

I have been attending card shows actively since 2011 and nobody was carrying pelican type cases back then. Even when I attended the 2019 National, it wasn't enough as to where anyone really noticed. Fast forward to the 2021 National, it felt like everybody had a pelican case full of cards. I would attribute this to trade nights going on all over every night. Even at the small local show I attend, people are carrying them now. The game has changed.

Agree Foo that’s what I have been observing at shows of late as well.

[samosa4u]

You trade with a dealer, then you're gonna' lose badly, period!

[conor912]

It’s easier to throw around stupid prices when no money ever changes hands.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by notfast

The majority of people do not expect the dealer to “win” the trade. That’s why trading is very hard.

From my experience, the majority of dealers expect to win the trade. That's why trading can be hard, unless the collector is willing to accept that.

[Johnny630]

The dealer still has to sell the card he received back in trade that’s usually why they expect to win by 20-30% I get that especially if he is working with the customer excepting trade and cash on an item back in trade that is not as easy a sale as the card going to the customer in the deal.

Also a lot of times dealers don’t even want to entertain they deal when they find out what the attendees says he values his card at. If it’s out of this world price it’s not going to work, it’s just not why waste anyone’s time.

[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

I think most collectors bring cards to trade with other collectors. Dealers probably don't want to deal with the hassle of trading and would only buy outright for items they can sell.

Yes, and a lot of traders want to trade a bunch of unsellable cards for your quality items.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by CurtisFlood

Yes, and a lot of traders want to trade a bunch of unsellable cards for your quality items.

Exactly

[chriskim]

If I am not mistaken, I think one board member here trade out majority of his collection (probably plus cash) for a PSA2 Wagner when the card was still under quarter Mil$

[kmac32]

I have had cards I traded for cards I wanted at the National. I bring my duplicate cards and If I find something I really want or is on my want list, propose something like a 2 for 1 deal. I have fewer cards to carry around And I get a card I want. They win and I win.

[53toppscollector]

In my opinion, trades work best between two collectors, because collectors are going to be searching for particular things, and if you find someone who has what you want, and you have something they want, it is easier to just swap your products.

Dealers are looking to make profit, because it is how they make their living. Swapping their $300 card for someone else's $300 card, especially if we are talking vintage where the expected growth will be slow, doesn't really make sense for the dealer, unless he is trading a card that isn't very liquid and is more obscure and he'll have a tougher time selling.

I consistently look for cards that are undervalued or priced incorrectly, because if I can pick them up and then either trade them or sell them for a profit, I can use that profit to buy something I am looking to keep permanently in my collection. Cards are my hobby, not my job, but I have a finite card budget, so anything that helps me add money to my card budget is a win for me.

[Rich Klein]

Let's look at the NSCC.

I had a brief chat with one of my dealer friends at the recent NSCC who broke down for me his costs.

Booth
Hotel
Food
Renting Showcases
Travel
MISC

And he's not cheap but for him setting up at the NSCC was approximately 3K and frankly he's doing it at a reasonable cost.

If you are spending 3K for a week any trade better darned well be in your favor before you as a dealer does that trade

Now, if it's a small local show where the tables cost $40-50 then trading becomes financially easier for a vendor.

That's why you always must look at trading from the dealer financial viewpoint not just from what we as collectors wish to do

Rich

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Let's look at the NSCC.

I had a brief chat with one of my dealer friends at the recent NSCC who broke down for me his costs.

Booth
Hotel
Food
Renting Showcases
Travel
MISC

And he's not cheap but for him setting up at the NSCC was approximately 3K and frankly he's doing it at a reasonable cost.

If you are spending 3K for a week any trade better darned well be in your favor before you as a dealer does that trade

Now, if it's a small local show where the tables cost $40-50 then trading becomes financially easier for a vendor.

That's why you always must look at trading from the dealer financial viewpoint not just from what we as collectors wish to do

Rich

now im no tax expert...dammit Jim...I'm just a dentist! But...arent these expenses tax deductible?

[Rich Klein]

Even if they are, you just spent 3K and won't get that money back for 6-10 months. It's still an out of pocket expense. And that's what dealers think about.

Rich

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Even if they are, you just spent 3K and won't get that money back for 6-10 months. It's still an out of pocket expense. And that's what dealers think about.

Rich

Great point. Collectors who trade rarely think about the additional costs. And time spent.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Let me know when a major auction house takes trade....wonder if I could trade cards for my winnings.

PWCC accepts trades sometimes.

[Directly]

Question which one of these two cards graded a 3 would a dealer rather want in trade for resale?--A tough decision--

1) T205 Cobb

2) 1940 Playball Joe Jackson

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Directly

Question which one of these two cards graded a 3 would a dealer rather want in trade for resale?--A tough decision--

1) T205 Cobb

2) 1940 Playball Joe Jackson

cobb all day

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Directly

Question which one of these two cards graded a 3 would a dealer rather want in trade for resale?--A tough decision--

1) T205 Cobb

2) 1940 Playball Joe Jackson

Cobb +1

Cobb, Ruth, Mantle, Jackie, and Mays are the ones dealers want.

[egri]

Agree with Cobb.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Cobb +1

Cobb, Ruth, Mantle, Jackie, and Mays are the ones dealers want.

Dealers definitely want Joe Jackson too. The problem is the 40 PB is not a playing days card. What about 1914 or 1915 CJ Cobb or Jackson? That is a not an easy choice.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by rats60

Dealers definitely want Joe Jackson too. The problem is the 40 PB is not a playing days card. What about 1914 or 1915 CJ Cobb or Jackson? That is a not an easy choice.

Between the T205 Cobb and PB Jackson - Cobb all day, every day

1914 or 15 CJ - MUCH tougher choice, but I think I still lean toward Cobb.

[Snowman]

I think part of the disconnect is that the leverage dealers have over buyers in today's market is quite a bit different than it was back in the 80s, 90s, and even the 2000s. Back then, if you wanted to sell your cards, you either had to find a friend to sell it to or take it to your local card shop/show and take whatever you could get for it. They had a lot of leverage over you. They knew they could resell it for X, so they gave you some significantly lower percentage of its value in order to turn a profit. It's a business after all. But in today's market, collectors no longer need dealers or card shops to buy their cards. The only thing a dealer offers them today by buying their card is the convenience of not having to deal with eBay or a consignment company. We don't "need" a dealer to buy our cards nowadays, so that leverage is lost. But most of the dealers I've encountered don't acknowledge this. It's like they still think they have power over the market/buyers because they've somehow "earned" it with their decades of experience. I find most (not all) card shop owners that I've encountered to be extremely arrogant.

The only leverage they have now, in the case of a trade, comes from them having a particular card that you want, not from them being in the position of being a dealer. Sure, some people are desperate enough to acquire a particular card that they're willing to take a loss on their trade in value to get it, but it's not because the person on the other end of the transaction is a dealer, but rather because they have what the other person wants. I think most trades at shows nowadays probably occurs between collectors away from the tables. Trade night is a big deal at the larger shows.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Snowman

PWCC accepts trades sometimes.

But the cards seem to lose weight once in their possession. Trades are always easier with collectors.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Directly

Question which one of these two cards graded a 3 would a dealer rather want in trade for resale?--A tough decision--

1) T205 Cobb

2) 1940 Playball Joe Jackson

To most of us it is not a tough question at all.

Dealers wants what is easier to turn and more in demand.

T205 Cobb great looking card and playing day card and is easier to turn.

The 1940 Playball Joe jackson is 20 years after after he played and more common then the T205 (especially if you consider the various backs)

I am a Joe Jackson Addict but for me T205 Cobb all day based on this question.

If it was the T205 Cobb vs the 1916 Joe Jackson alot tougher question

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think part of the disconnect is that the leverage dealers have over buyers in today's market is quite a bit different than it was back in the 80s, 90s, and even the 2000s. Back then, if you wanted to sell your cards, you either had to find a friend to sell it to or take it to your local card shop/show and take whatever you could get for it. They had a lot of leverage over you. They knew they could resell it for X, so they gave you some significantly lower percentage of its value in order to turn a profit. It's a business after all. But in today's market, collectors no longer need dealers or card shops to buy their cards. The only thing a dealer offers them today by buying their card is the convenience of not having to deal with eBay or a consignment company. We don't "need" a dealer to buy our cards nowadays, so that leverage is lost. But most of the dealers I've encountered don't acknowledge this. It's like they still think they have power over the market/buyers because they've somehow "earned" it with their decades of experience. I find most (not all) card shop owners that I've encountered to be extremely arrogant.

The only leverage they have now, in the case of a trade, comes from them having a particular card that you want, not from them being in the position of being a dealer. Sure, some people are desperate enough to acquire a particular card that they're willing to take a loss on their trade in value to get it, but it's not because the person on the other end of the transaction is a dealer, but rather because they have what the other person wants. I think most trades at shows nowadays probably occurs between collectors away from the tables. Trade night is a big deal at the larger shows.

This reminds me of my last couple Nationals. I was buying a card from a dealer and asked if he was interested in taking partial trade. He just said flat out no. When I got home I listed the card on BST and it sold within a few hours for more than what I would have taken from him since he was a dealer.

In another case I had a card that a dealer wanted and he had something I was interested in, but he decided to low ball me on my card so I just walked away and sold it on eBay for a fair price.

I set up at shows for 30 years. I don't understand the attitudes of many dealers as pointed out above. I would never turn down a trade before seeing what the collector had. Doing trade or cash trade deals offers the dealer an opportunity for more profit. You make a profit off the card you are trading away and then you make a profit off the new card you receive.

In the Cobb vs Jackson trade, both are easily sellable cards. The Cobb is more desirable, but no dealer should turn down the Jackson at the appropriate price. As a dealer are you in business to make money or are you just a collector disguised as a dealer looking to have the best display?

[Tony Gordon]

I am one of those National dealers that says "no" as soon as you ask me for a trade. With booth fee, employees, hotel, food, and gas, I'm deep in the hole long before the show even starts. I don't need cards to sell on eBay or shows down the line, I have a huge inventory. If it is a post-war card, I always have five to 10 of these cards anyone offers to trade. I need cash to cover my expenses. I need cash at the end of the show to determine whether it was a successful show and whether it was worth my time. I also need cash for all the deals I have lined up after the show.

In addition, in my 40 years of setting up at shows I can only recall maybe two occasions where the trade was worth my while. Usually someone will offer me four or five 1963 or 1964 Topps baseball league leaders cards in exchange for my 1963 Mantle. I mean, nine times out of 10, it is just a horrible offer.

I just don't bother any more, especially at the National, where I will probably lose a paying customer while wasting my time with someone offering a trade. You've got just a short time to catch the attention of the paying customer who will move on to the next table if you're too busy or seemingly ignoring them.

On the rare occasions I do engage in a trade, I have to consider the amount of money I have into the card and how much money I foresee earning on the eventual sale of the new card I obtain in the trade. It just rarely, if ever, works out in my favor.

Here is my advice for someone who believes they are offering something really good for trade: don't ask the dealer if he trades. The word "trade" is a red flag for dealers. Instead, show the dealer the card before saying anything and ask him if he is interested. If you have something good, not league leader cards, then the dealer will work something out with you.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Tony Gordon

I am one of those National dealers that says "no" as soon as you ask me for a trade. With booth fee, employees, hotel, food, and gas, I'm deep in the hole long before the show even starts. I don't need cards to sell on eBay or shows down the line, I have a huge inventory. If it is a post-war card, I always have five to 10 of these cards anyone offers to trade. I need cash to cover my expenses. I need cash at the end of the show to determine whether it was a successful show and whether it was worth my time. I also need cash for all the deals I have lined up after the show.

In addition, in my 40 years of setting up at shows I can only recall maybe two occasions where the trade was worth my while. Usually someone will offer me four or five 1963 or 1964 Topps baseball league leaders cards in exchange for my 1963 Mantle. I mean, nine times out of 10, it is just a horrible offer.

I just don't bother any more, especially at the National, where I will probably lose a paying customer while wasting my time with someone offering a trade. You've got just a short time to catch the attention of the paying customer who will move on to the next table if you're too busy or seemingly ignoring them.

On the rare occasions I do engage in a trade, I have to consider the amount of money I have into the card and how much money I foresee earning on the eventual sale of the new card I obtain in the trade. It just rarely, if ever, works out in my favor.

Here is my advice for someone who believes they are offering something really good for trade: don't ask the dealer if he trades. The word "trade" is a red flag for dealers. Instead, show the dealer the card before saying anything and ask him if he is interested. If you have something good, not league leader cards, then the dealer will work something out with you.

Nice to hear information on this subject from a National dealer.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Tony Gordon

I am one of those National dealers that says "no" as soon as you ask me for a trade. With booth fee, employees, hotel, food, and gas, I'm deep in the hole long before the show even starts. I don't need cards to sell on eBay or shows down the line, I have a huge inventory. If it is a post-war card, I always have five to 10 of these cards anyone offers to trade. I need cash to cover my expenses. I need cash at the end of the show to determine whether it was a successful show and whether it was worth my time. I also need cash for all the deals I have lined up after the show.

In addition, in my 40 years of setting up at shows I can only recall maybe two occasions where the trade was worth my while. Usually someone will offer me four or five 1963 or 1964 Topps baseball league leaders cards in exchange for my 1963 Mantle. I mean, nine times out of 10, it is just a horrible offer.

I just don't bother any more, especially at the National, where I will probably lose a paying customer while wasting my time with someone offering a trade. You've got just a short time to catch the attention of the paying customer who will move on to the next table if you're too busy or seemingly ignoring them.

On the rare occasions I do engage in a trade, I have to consider the amount of money I have into the card and how much money I foresee earning on the eventual sale of the new card I obtain in the trade. It just rarely, if ever, works out in my favor.

Here is my advice for someone who believes they are offering something really good for trade: don't ask the dealer if he trades. The word "trade" is a red flag for dealers. Instead, show the dealer the card before saying anything and ask him if he is interested. If you have something good, not league leader cards, then the dealer will work something out with you.

Very Good Advise and makes sense with all the upfront costs with the event and the need to focus on paying customers that the person wanting the trade may not realize