PWCC's 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum DiMaggio PSA 7

[Leon]

Every old timer I have spoken with agrees with you 100%. These great, great looking pre war cards just didn't exist before. If folks are collecting cards in super high condition then they should know there is a good chance the card they own has been cleaned or worse.... Here is a message I got a few days ago from someone that anyone who has been in the hobby 10+ yrs knows the name of...but he asked me to keep him anonymous so I am doing so..

Don't these buyers of high end cards realize that this 36 DiMaggio is just the very tip of the iceberg, that there are in fact thousands and thousands of altered cards that end up slabbed? Skilled paper restorers learned a long time ago that most of their work will go undetected by TPG's, and these submissions have been going on for many years. Old time collectors who were around in the 1960's and 70's all agree they rarely ever saw pristine vintage cards. Now, they are all over the hobby. They are the engine that drive the very profitable registry market, so it's conceivable the graders turn a blind eye to them. I wonder if this part of the hobby will ever be publicly exposed by say an FBI investigation?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would emphasize the word "created." In my opinion having collected as an adult since the early 90s, many of the very expensive high end cards out there, starting with the Wagner, have been worked on in some way prior to being submitted. I did not mean to imply that you personally, or EVERY high end collector is indifferent to that, but my interactions with many people convince me that many are in fact indifferent to it, or resigned, or in denial, or some combination of the above.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Leon

Every old timer I have spoken with agrees with you 100%. These great, great looking pre war cards just didn't exist before. If folks are collecting cards in super high condition then they should know there is a good chance the card they own has been cleaned or worse.... Here is a message I got a few days ago from someone that anyone who has been in the hobby 10+ yrs knows the name of...but he asked me to keep him anonymous so I am doing so..

Don't these buyers of high end cards realize that this 36 DiMaggio is just the very tip of the iceberg, that there are in fact thousands and thousands of altered cards that end up slabbed? Skilled paper restorers learned a long time ago that most of their work will go undetected by TPG's, and these submissions have been going on for many years. Old time collectors who were around in the 1960's and 70's all agree they rarely ever saw pristine vintage cards. Now, they are all over the hobby. They are the engine that drive the very profitable registry market, so it's conceivable the graders turn a blind eye to them. I wonder if this part of the hobby will ever be publicly exposed by say an FBI investigation?

I thought everyone knew that. When you buy an old cracker jack card with no staining etc and its in a PSA 7 holder, you assume something happened to it previously. Dont you? I prefer not to see that same card in a prior sale as a PSA 4 but the risk is there i would think

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I thought everyone knew that. When you buy an old cracker jack card with no staining etc and its in a PSA 7 holder, you assume something happened to it previously. Dont you? I prefer not to see that same card in a prior sale as a PSA 4 but the risk is there i would think

Jake, I doubt many buyers make that assumption. Do you think the person who bought the new and improved Nagurski assumed it had been worked on, for example? To be clear the last several posts have been about the high end, but it goes on at any level where there is money to be made.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by Leon

Every old timer I have spoken with agrees with you 100%. These great, great looking pre war cards just didn't exist before. If folks are collecting cards in super high condition then they should know there is a good chance the card they own has been cleaned or worse.... Here is a message I got a few days ago from someone that anyone who has been in the hobby 10+ yrs knows the name of...but he asked me to keep him anonymous so I am doing so..

Don't these buyers of high end cards realize that this 36 DiMaggio is just the very tip of the iceberg, that there are in fact thousands and thousands of altered cards that end up slabbed? Skilled paper restorers learned a long time ago that most of their work will go undetected by TPG's, and these submissions have been going on for many years. Old time collectors who were around in the 1960's and 70's all agree they rarely ever saw pristine vintage cards. Now, they are all over the hobby. They are the engine that drive the very profitable registry market, so it's conceivable the graders turn a blind eye to them. I wonder if this part of the hobby will ever be publicly exposed by say an FBI investigation?

Leon,

I think we both know this isn't completely true. There have been dozens of important finds of high-grade cards, both pre-war and post-war in the last 30 years. Some of them have been publicized on this very forum. I have personally seen a large quantity of these high-grade cards when they were first discovered--everything from T206s, Sport Kings and Diamond Stars taken from unopened packs to perfect condition 1933 Goudeys. And we all know of the 1914 and 1915 Cracker Jack factory sets that have been found and graded as well as large accumulations of candy/caramel cards such as those which constituted the "Black Swamp" find. There have also been many collections, like that of Lionel Carter or the discoveries of Alan Rosen, that have brought thousands more original, high-grade cards into the marketplace.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by MW1

Leon,

I think we both know this isn't completely true. There have been dozens of important finds of high-grade cards, both pre-war and post-war in the last 30 years. Some of them have been publicized on this very forum. I have personally seen a large quantity of these high-grade cards when they were first discovered--everything from T206s, Sport Kings and Diamond Stars taken from unopened packs to perfect condition 1933 Goudeys. And we all know of the 1914 and 1915 Cracker Jack factory sets that have been found and graded as well as large accumulations of candy/caramel cards such as those which constituted the "Black Swamp" find. There have also been many collections, like that of Lionel Carter or the discoveries of Alan Rosen, that have brought thousands more original, high-grade cards into the marketplace.

+1

Michael beat me to it....

[jfkheat]

Originally Posted by Leon

Every old timer I have spoken with agrees with you 100%. These great, great looking pre war cards just didn't exist before. If folks are collecting cards in super high condition then they should know there is a good chance the card they own has been cleaned or worse.... Here is a message I got a few days ago from someone that anyone who has been in the hobby 10+ yrs knows the name of...but he asked me to keep him anonymous so I am doing so..

Don't these buyers of high end cards realize that this 36 DiMaggio is just the very tip of the iceberg, that there are in fact thousands and thousands of altered cards that end up slabbed? Skilled paper restorers learned a long time ago that most of their work will go undetected by TPG's, and these submissions have been going on for many years. Old time collectors who were around in the 1960's and 70's all agree they rarely ever saw pristine vintage cards. Now, they are all over the hobby. They are the engine that drive the very profitable registry market, so it's conceivable the graders turn a blind eye to them. I wonder if this part of the hobby will ever be publicly exposed by say an FBI investigation?

I'm sure there were plenty of pristine cards found in the 60's and 70's but news of these didn't travel like it does now. We didn't have the internet to make sure news of these finds travels around the world within a day or so.
James