t205 debate: when were they actually printed?

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Posted By: runscott

..an interesting comment on t205's from Brooks:

"The t205's are listed as being printed in 1911. I think they were printed in multi-years like the t206's ebecause the cards with the N.Y. American players say "Yankees" on the front. They did not change their name from the "Highlanders" to the "Yankees" until 1913."

I had also noticed that the back of my t205 Matty refers to the "Yankees".

Thoughts?

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Posted By: harry

The Highlanders nickname came, in part, from where they palyed their games: Hilltop Park. It was not uncommon for teams of the era to be known by several nicknames and this is the case with the Highlanders. They were referred to as the Yankees as early as 1904. It is said that the Yankees nickname was favored by the papers which did not like having to fit in the lengthy word, Highlanders, into their headlines every day. If this is true then it probably makes sense as to why the name Yankees was used on T205 cards.

With the lack of team variations, I find it hard to believe that the set was issued over a number of years and most definitely not from 1911 through 1913.

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Posted By: scott

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Posted By: BROOKS NEWELL

HELLO HARRY I AGREE WITH YOU ON SOME OF YOUR FACTS BUT NOT ON YOUR DATES.ACTUALLY THE NEW YORK AMERICANS ORIGINALLY WERE THE BALTIMORE ORIOLES AND THROUGH A LOT OF POLITICAL FINAGALLING FROM 1901 TO 1903 THEY RELOCATED TO HILLTOP PARK IN UPPER MANHATTAN AND THIER ACTUAL NAME WAS THE HILLTOPPERS BUT EVERY ONE CALLED THEM THE HIGHLANDERS. THE TEAM WAS PURCHASED BY A BOSTON TEXTILE OWNER AND PLAYED ITS LAST GAME AT HILLTOP PARK ON OCTOBER 5,1912. IT WAS ALSO IN 1912 THAT THE TERM YANKEES WERE UNOFFICALLY COINED BY NEW YORK PRESS SPORTS EDITOR JIM PRICE,AS YOU SAID FOR SIMPLICITY IN WRITING AND SPACE CONCERNS, AND IN 1913 IT WAS OFFICALLY ADOPTED.HENCE MY ORIGINAL QUESTION IF THEY WERE NOT PRINTED IN MULTI-YEARS HOW DID THE NAME YANKEES APPEAR IN 1911 AS THIER OFFICAL NAME WAS NOT ADOPTED UNTIL 1913 OR EVEN BANTERED ABOUT UNTIL 1912 ACCORDING TO MY REFERENCE MATERIAL........ANYONE ELSE HAVE AN INSIGHT ON THIS POSER?

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Posted By: Brian Hodes

Back in this period teams still did not entirely control what they were called so it certainly posible that the team now known as the Yankees had more than one "name." In fact, as two learned posters above point out the sportswriters to a large extent namedthe teams.
To some extent this lack of formal naming (and all of the legal and marketing stuff that accompanied it) accounts for many of the amusing names of the late 19th and early 20th century. Some of these names even live on today (e.g. the Pittsbugh Pirates).
Among my favorites:
The Cleveland Naps (Indians) -- presumably because they had the great Lajoie one of the American leagues first marquee players.
The Chicago Orphans (Cubs) -- Circa 1897 (I think) because after 20+ years they lost their "Pop" Cap
Anson.
Other names that I don't know/recall the origins of are equally curious:
The Brooklyn Bridegrooms;
The Brooklyn Superbas (whatever that means); and
The Boston Beaneaters (supply your own punchline).

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Posted By: petecld

Are we assuming the T205 set was issued in 1911 simply because the cards with stats "ends" with 1910 so we assume they came out the next year? This is what Topps did so is this a case of placing modern approach on a vintage set. Is there paper work telling us T205s came out in 1911?

Since T206s were still issued in 1911 isn't it a possibility that T205s came out starting in 1912? If the 1912 date is possible that would also expalin the use of the term "Yankees" in the copy wouldn't it?

Dare I say it - could the "books" be wrong?

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Posted By: runscott

The t205 Matty has 1910 as the last year of stats and the following on the back: "...and mowing down the Yankees in 1910...".

would be really weird if the cards were produced after 1912, but 1911 stats weren't added yet references to the NEW YORK AL team were changed to "YANKEES" as described above. (but stranger things have happened)

Perhaps we've just discovered that the "Yankees" name was standard earlier than previously thought.

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Posted By: petecld

It could also be possible that even though the name Yankees wasn't "standard", it was used by the press and the person who wrote the copy for the T205 cards could have been a sports writer for a newspaper and thus was familiar with new team nickname and used it.