Question for Bob Lemke re: 1904 Fan Craze

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

For years I have wondered why FAN CRAZE would have distributed a board game with two decks of cards -- one for the American League and one for the National League -- but give out one set in 1904 and the other in 1906??

Now I have come across information that seems to PROVE that BOTH decks of cards were distributed in 1906:

William Sudhoff has an American League Fan Craze card that lists him as playing for WASHINGTON on the card. This can therefore NOT be a set from 1904... since he didn't start playing with Washington until 1906!!

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sudhowi01.shtml

Likewise, the SAME is true for the following players with "1904" American League Fan Craze cards that picture them on teams for which they DID NOT PLAY until 1905 or 1906:

Lave Cross: Card says "Washington" - started there in 1906!!

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/crossla01.shtml

Albert Jacobson: Card says "St. Louis" - started there in 1906!!

http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jacobbe01.shtml

Billy Owen, George Stone and Charley Hickman are ALSO the same thing!!

MR LEMKE: AM I MISSING SOMETHING ... OR IS THERE SOME REASON WHY THIS SET CONTINUES TO BE MIS-LISTED AS A 1904 SET???

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I am only asking Mr. Lemke since he publishes the "Collector's Bible"...

but anyone who knows the answer is certainly welcome to post it here as well.

Thanks

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

other than that they haven't got around to making the change. Fan Craze did issue a similar card game in 1904 that used generic drawings but still had the various "outcomes" for each card; in fact, one is listed on ebay right now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26362&item=5939340597&rd=1

Even recently, Mr. Lemke's catalogue pictured the wrong reverse for this set, which looks alot like the one in the ebay set and other iterations of the game that I have seen. I have never seen a fan craze card with a named player on front and the white with red letter reverse that is shown in the SCD catalogue as recently as 2002 (my only copy at work).

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Posted By: Julie

(I saw that 1904 set recently on ebay), but it doesn't explain why Mr. Lemke hasn't kept up with what everyone who collects Fan Craze has known for years.

You know, when Lemke called me "snide," it seems to have rubbed off. That WAS snide, wasn't it?

Anyway, Bob, get with the Fan Craze. The first post in this column says enough to convice you that the A.L. came out the same year as the N.L Now, if you could only learn that the A.L. cards are MUCH HARDER TO FIND, and thus more expensive, than the N.L. You have a common A.L. HOFer listing at $190 in near mint, and a common N.L. HOFer listing at--either 225 or 250. Don't. I. Wish!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Todd: Thanks!

Great find on the 1904 Fan Craze game on EBay!!

I guess Mr. Lemke originally saw that the game was first issued in 1904 ... but he never knew that the FIRST edition of the game had GENERIC player cards like the ones on EBay.

Clearly it wasn't until the 1906 Edition of the Fan Craze game that they came out with the American and National League PHOTOGRAPHIC cards for the game.

Hopefully this MISTAKE can be corrected in future editions of Mr. Lemke's book...

because the 1903 E107 set is FAR TOO IMPORTANT for people to believe that the Fan Craze came out right after it in 1904.

The 1903 E107 set is ALL THAT EXISTS between the 1895 Mayos and the 1906 Fan Crazes, so it deserves some "breathing room."

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Posted By: Julie

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I was only referring to "cards" that you could fit between the spokes of your bike tires.

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Posted By: Anonymous

also has them listed as 1904 (American League) and 1906 (National League), so this would need to be changed as well.

Does anyone know how these cards were issued? I mean, they were part of a game - was it like a board game where the red back set and the blue back set all came in one package as part of the game? If so, were there 2 different games, one more common than the others? Has a complete set, original game ever been offered by auction that would give more info on when they came out and how they were originally distributed?

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Posted By: Julie

"sets" who knows how the play "Fan Craze." It may be different with the 1904 generic ones, but they are really pretty boring to look at. And you'd think, if a GAME was intended, the two "sets" (AL and NL) would have been issued in the same PACKAGE, fergodsake!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I agree.

Just no way that the company produced ONLY an American League version of the game for TWO YEARS...

and then ONLY produced a National League version for the next two years.

Surely the whole darn thing came as one big set in 1906.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Maybe they sold the first set at "22 Ann Street"...

and then they later sold the second set at "126 Nassau Street."

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Posted By: Julie

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Posted By: David Smith

I might be mistaken but I thought someone on this board bought a complete, never used Fan Craze game on eBAY several months ago?? There were two cellophane wrapped packs (one never opened) with the game board, box and instructions.

They sent the cards off to be graded and about half (maybe more) came back as 10's.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

David: Maybe the ones you describe are the ones currently being sold in the Mastro auction?

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=42242


HEY ... give Mastro credit:

because THEY even mention in their description that the cards are more likely from 1906 than 1904!!

Mastro has the game board and the original box and STILL CANNOT tell when exactly the cards were produced... so I think it is pretty safe to assume that they are from 1906 and NOT 1904.

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Posted By: Julie

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

I have a Fan Craze NL set along with the box it came in -- my set although pretty much untouched isn't as nice as the AL one in the current MastroNet auction (at least if you go by PSA grades, I haven't actually seen the MastroNet cards in person). My understanding (based on the box I have) is that the sets came separately so it is not necessarily the case that they were issued the same year. That said, it is also (based on what Hal pointed out above) inconceivable that the AL set came out in 1904. Also, as someone who collects these cards pretty actively I can't say for certain if either set is harder to come by.

In an early issue of the VBC publication there was an interesting piece (I believeit was in the letters section) about the likley year of issue of the Fan Carze sets. At one point I tried figure out the likely year of issue based on the player's teams and I believe my incomplete results were rather confusing.... At some point I hope to complete this little project and I'll be sure to share these results in some fashion.

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Posted By: Julie

from looking at it, that you could play a game with BOTH sets together?) I realize that the A.L. and N.L. were apparently sold separately, but--once you had one, was there anything you could do with them besides collect them?

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

I'm not precisely sure how but the box also included a wooden baseball diamond wth peg holes. The reason people presumed the set was from 1904 is that 1904 is the copywrite date on the box (I will post a scan of the box etc. when I get a chance and figure out how).

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Posted By: David Smith

The one I am talking about was discovered in an old store in Kansas that had been closed for years. The set was sold this past summer on eBAY for $7,000.

I was wishing then that I had the money to buy it and now I am Really wishing I had had the money to buy it. Oh well. Like I said before, I think someone on this board bought the set and it looks like they are going to make a big profit which they will probably turn around and buy cards for their collection.

That's good. I would rather see the profit go into cards instead of a boob job for their wife, girlfriend, etc or a set of shiny rims for their car....

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Posted By: Julie

it's NOTHING! Just a lot of boring generic drawings. Hope no0body was fooled into thinking it had photos or any kind of pictures of real players.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Brian:

You are correct in that this information was first uncovered in a VCBC issue from 1996...

so it has been known for EIGHT YEARS...

and we still don't have it listed accurately in the hobby's FOREMOST collecting guide?



The TRADEMARK date of 1904 on the BOX does NOT mean that the American League cards were produced in 1904...

unless someone at the company KNEW TWO YEARS AHEAD OF TIME where every player was going to be traded and playing two years later!

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Is it Bob Lemke's responsibility to correct every mistake made by our predecessors via his own research? Regarding set dates, there are numerous sets with apparently erroneous dating attributation in the Sports Collectors Bible. Many of these have been corrected, while others are carried over without checking.

Emphasis on the dating of sets is a relatively recent phenomonon. Perhaps brought on by a diminishment in the prior focus on the inclusion of all cards in the sets.

I do not expect that the dating of the issuance of all sets will be firm for some time yet.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

No, Gilbert, of course it isn't Mr. Lemke's responsibility...

but I know for a fact that he WANTS his guide to be ACCURATE...

and that he DOES update "dates" for sets in every new edition.

EXAMPLES:

There is NO LONGER a set in the "Big Book" known as the 1915 M101-5 Sporting News set. It has now been CHANGED to reflect a printing date of 1916.

There is NO LONGER a set in the "Big Book" known as the 1908 E102 "Set of 25." It has now been CHANGED to reflect a 1909-10 printing date.



Hey, these things are IMPORTANT to us "rookie card" collectors!!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Everyone will be pleased to know that Mr. Lemke was polite enough to personally respond to my e-mail...

and he says that this correction WILL be noted in future editions!!

GOOD-BYE "1904" American League Fan Craze cards...

HELLO "1906" Fan Craze Cards from BOTH leagues!!



Thanks, Mr. Lemke!

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

It is more than rookie card collectors who find the dating of sets important to their collections, Hal. There are a few sets I am wrestling with right now, and I have done this sort of wrestling for quite a while.

Gilbert

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Posted By: Gary B.

"Everyone will be pleased to know that Mr. Lemke was polite enough to personally respond to my e-mail... and he says that this correction WILL be noted in future editions!!"

Good work, Hal! Now, maybe we can get it fixed on the Old Cardboard site as well?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I e-mailed Brett about making the change on his website.

They do a great job of informing vintage collectors ...

so I have no doubt that Brett will have this corrected on Old Cardboard in no time.

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Posted By: Gary B.

That Old Cardboard site has truly been a godsend for me - an incredibly concise and easy to use way to access information quickly.

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Posted By: Brett Domue

All,

Just an FYI, I did just receive Hal's email, but will not be able to update my checklists for at least another two weeks, until I return to the US. At that time, I actually have a full week off work between Christmas and New Years, and will try to catch up on quite a few changes that are needed on the site.

Thanks to all of you for your continued updates and kind words...I just wish I had more time to contribute.

Regards,

Brett

Brett Domue
okeedokee@pipeline.com
http://members.aol.com/METSBWD/wantlist.htm