New allegations on BO

[sportscardtheory]

Wouldn't anyone who has ever had a verified submission with either PSA, BGS, or who has ever consigned with PWCC, have a legal right to pursue damages for the unfair treatment they have received from these corporations pertaining to the market in which they are a part of? I mean, PSA and BGS are clearly giving these fraudsters a means to commit fraud while not giving the same lax grading privileges to every person who submits. Think of it this way, little ol' me submits cards straight from packs, gets a bunch of 8s and 9s, these scum are submitting ALTERED cards and getting 10s. Is that fair to me, in a legal sense, considering the TPG's mission statement?

And PWCC is buying their own consignees' cards through their OWN consignments, altering them and reselling them for themselves, which is akin to insider trading, being that they have the means to select which cards they want for themselves because they are in-hand, misrepresent the card in the listing, buy it cheaply themselves, alter, sell high. On one card alone Moser/PWCC banked $21,000+ after "purchasing" it from their consignee. Couldn't the original owner pursue that $21,000+ from PWCC and/or PSA? There is so much going on here, with paper/online trails, it's amazing that it lasted this long.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

I imagine Brent will blame it all on Moser, PSA and refer to his tenets as the authority to make it all seem ok, PSA will blame Brent and Moser for duping them and Moser will blame Brent, I suspect for conspiring with him to commit fraud. Ultimately that will be for the Feds and lawyers to sort out as to whom is responsible for what. The bottom line is assuming all of the research BO is doing is accurate, they are all guilty in part and will be held accountable whether it be financial or criminal. And until there’s a better system of somehow marking cards that get graded so any attempt at altering (or conserving as Brent would say) can be easily caught, this cycle will repeat itself again in the next few years. Just too much money at stake.

Here is my solution to this

Search warrants for one Slimy Business and all their dealings...find out whom the guys are resubmitted the doctored cards...who’s invoices are they using...

I said this months ago on board use the daube they use on PSA/DNA items it’s invisible, only psa can see, would insure once graded or not graded that’s it done ✅ if crack, doctor and resub it would instantly show what’s going on....idk maybe It’s a insane idea and would cut down on resubs and crack outs but it would stop this mess....or at least attempt to prevent it daube all items log grade and or non grade and done.

Sure people and PSA will hate this cause they won’t be able to crack out and gamble but it’s a solution.

[swarmee]

So the way to prevent future card alterations is to alter the card? Not buying it, plus PSA would have to share with BGS, SGC etc their technology because they have competitors. And there are 30 million cards in slabs that have not had this done.

[Johnny630]

It’s not altering a card.....it’s done on all psa/dna Signed items now...including vintage signed cards...
Only new items ... PSA can’t go back and change what happened in the past they can only find a solution to try and prevent

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Sure people and PSA will hate this cause they won’t be able to crack out and gamble but it’s a solution.

But why shouldn't people be allowed to crack out and resubmit for a chance at a higher grade? It's the altering between the crack out and resubmission that the problem, but not the folks that are just trying for a half grade bump and not altering the card any.

[Johnny630]

It’s a solution........good guys are collateral damage as always thank the crooks mentioned above who have been exposed

PSA has to do something .......

[CobbSpikedMe]

I hear ya. I just feel like PSA needs to get better at detecting alterations and labelling cards as such instead of stopping people from resubmitting cards.

[Johnny630]

Well I feel your pain too.....PSA isn’t gonna wanna do this they get tons of money on crack out and submit again......however....if they can’t trust their grader with catching doctored altered cards how in heck can their Brand And Opinion be substantiated......Something has to be done to catch altered cards what they’re doing now isn’t working ......to me .my idea would work
It’s accurate as hell

[sportscardtheory]

I would never let a company that allows altered cards to be given numerical grades mark my cards. No way.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

But why shouldn't people be allowed to crack out and resubmit for a chance at a higher grade? It's the altering between the crack out and resubmission that the problem, but not the folks that are just trying for a half grade bump and not altering the card any.

Andy, you can always ask a grader/TPG to reconsider their grade. Why do you need to crack and submit to do that?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Andy, you can always ask a grader/TPG to reconsider their grade. Why do you need to crack and submit to do that?

Much better success rate presumably.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Andy, you can always ask a grader/TPG to reconsider their grade. Why do you need to crack and submit to do that?

First, I have to admit, I've never submitted a card for grading so I don't know why someone would crack and resubmit but I thought that's what people do. I just didn't see why they shouldn't be allowed to do that any more.

[Johnny630]

Solution My Idea VS Spinning Wheels complaining and allowing to go on
I know it sucks but it’s the crooks mentioned above fault along with their ineptitude of not catching when grading cards....
if that could be fixed without this we wouldn’t even be having this talk ....they obviously can’t get it done over there

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

....they obviously can’t get it done over there

That I agree with for sure.

[Johnny630]

I want PSA to be a great company to be around to be viable and to be the best. I have a Lotta big cards in their holders. I do not believe they are in on this not one bit, they are just very inept at catching this right now when grading cards. I want them to get better and to succeed I believe a true solution is my solution that I mentioned above. I don’t want this to happen but I think right now it’s needed. They are trying their best and I do not believe they are part of the fraud that is going on....It’s not smart for their business I would never expect that from them. They have a Lotta good people over there and business along with their shareholders his first

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

They are disgusting and have nothing to do with baseball cards. They are purely political, and politics isn't allowed on this board. My two cents.

They aren't even political, they are the thoughts of a disturbed individual. I was hoping people would skip past it without acknowledging it, and a lot of people did for an hour or so. I also disagree with John that a post like that belongs in the Watercooler section. It has NO place on this forum. The Bruces wrote some really disgusting posts here, one of them even wishing to read my obituary, but I think this one is worse.

[perezfan]

Too bad he corrupted this good thread with that crap. A truly unnecessary distraction from an important topic. I wish Leon would clear every post in relation to this idiot, so as not to diminish the topic at hand.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

They aren't even political, they are the thoughts of a disturbed individual. I was hoping people would skip past it without acknowledging it, and a lot of people did for an hour or so. I also disagree with John that a post like that belongs in the Watercooler section. It has NO place on this forum. The Bruces wrote some really disgusting posts here, one of them even wishing to read my obituary, but I think this one is worse.

Agreed. I would punt the post, and the poster, no hesitation. Leon, I think you are overthinking it.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I want PSA to be a great company to be around to be viable and to be the best. I have a Lotta big cards in their holders. I do not believe they are in on this not one bit, they are just very inept at catching this right now when grading cards. I want them to get better and to succeed I believe a true solution is my solution that I mentioned above. I don’t want this to happen but I think right now it’s needed. They are trying their best and I do not believe they are part of the fraud that is going on....It’s not smart for their business I would never expect that from them. They have a Lotta good people over there and business along with their shareholders his first

Pretty typical response from someone deeply invested in the "Emperors New Clothes" (courtesy of PSA).

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Too bad he corrupted this good thread with that crap. A truly unnecessary distraction from an important topic. I wish Leon would clear every post in relation to this idiot, so as not to diminish the topic at hand.

Agree delete

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

I would never let a company that allows altered cards to be given numerical grades mark my cards. No way.

Amen!

[70ToppsFanatic]

At this point I think the best thing all of us "small" stakeholders could do is to directly and individually reach out to the reputable big hobby stakeholders and request that they release a statement and initiate actions, either separately or collaboratively, to restore some confidence to the hobby. Such a statement would most impactful if it said something to the effect that:

-They are taking these allegations seriously and are actively looking into them

-If there are findings that any of the allegations are indeed true they are committed to taking actions in an effort to prevent further occurrences of such instances from being possible

-If they have not already done so, they will begin efforts in earnest to solicit cooperation from the proper legal authorities in hopes of getting their assistance to investigate any of these allegations that, if true, would be violations of federal, state of local fraud statutes or any other laws

-They will do their best to provide timely and regular updates to the hobby stakeholders through future public statements to keep everyone aware of the findings, developments and progress being made

Think of the positive impact that such a collaborative and cooperative joint statement and effort by the major TPGs, big auction houses, etc. would have right now in stabilizing things and coordinating the currently scattered and largely "unofficial" efforts to actually deal with these issues that are clearly very troubling and concerning to the stakeholders in the hobby.

It would also be very helpful if a set of flip-numbers and flip-number ranges of items that MIGHT be affected by these allegations could be assembled and kept up-to-date and made available in a public place so that the vast majority of authenticated collectibles, which are not involved in these allegations, could continue to be bought, sold and otherwise exchanged with confidence by hobby stakeholders who are not involved.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I also disagree with John that a post like that belongs in the Watercooler section. It has NO place on this forum.

I believe I said "if it can stay, it should be in a difference place." I am not a fan of the inflammatory remarks, but since I don't play in the Off topic section, I don't know all the rules/modes there.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I believe I said "if it can stay, it should be in a difference place." I am not a fan of the inflammatory remarks, but since I don't play in the Off topic section, I don't know all the rules/modes there.

There are no politics or religion allowed in the off topic section, and even though I don't consider the comments to be political, a comment like that would definitely lead there.

[oldjudge]

Many good Americans died to defend this idiot’s right to speak freely. As repugnant as I find his post I would not take it down. Just let it be a reminder that there are people like this out there.

[pokerplyr80]

This revelation certainly explains the conservation vs alteration post. Assuming pwcc did buy cards that were sent to Moser, cleaned up, submitted to PSA, then resold on their site is that a crime? This would be also assuming that the cards were not trimmed, recolored, corners rebuilt, t206s rebacked, etc. That the only improvements were removing things from the cards that weren't originally there like stains, scrapbook residue, dirt, or creases and wrinkles.

I don't know the answer, and I do know what many on this board and in our hobby think of this practice. But is cleaning a card and selling without disclosing the improvement a crime?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Many good Americans died to defend this idiot’s right to speak freely. As repugnant as I find his post I would not take it down. Just let it be a reminder that there are people like this out there.

There are reminders all over the internet, a lot of people come here to escape that idiocy.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

There are reminders all over the internet, a lot of people come here to escape that idiocy.

LOL I'm not so sure how well that's been working lately.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Many good Americans died to defend this idiot’s right to speak freely. As repugnant as I find his post I would not take it down. Just let it be a reminder that there are people like this out there.

Last time I checked the Bill of Rights did not apply to a message board.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

This revelation certainly explains the conservation vs alteration post. Assuming pwcc did buy cards that were sent to Moser, cleaned up, submitted to PSA, then resold on their site is that a crime? This would be also assuming that the cards were not trimmed, recolored, corners rebuilt, t206s rebacked, etc. That the only improvements were removing things from the cards that weren't originally there like stains, scrapbook residue, dirt, or creases and wrinkles.

I don't know the answer, and I do know what many on this board and in our hobby think of this practice. But is cleaning a card and selling without disclosing the improvement a crime?

Quoted for the future.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There is certainly a spectrum of alterations, but I think there is still a clear hobby consensus that taking out creases and using chemicals to clean -- without disclosing -- are not acceptable.
Anyhow it's moot here there is massive evidence many cards were trimmed and recolored.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Much better success rate presumably.

I guess you are right. Like Andy, I am not a submitter, and the few times I asked for a bump (with decent success), I submitted in the flip. I would be too nervous to crack.

Also, PEOPLE, just stop responding to that idiot’s D-Bag post. You are giving it legs it doesn’t deserve. “And that about all I have to say about that” Forrest Gump

How about a card - I think this is misgraded; there is no way this is altered. SGC blew it! the tape holding the card together was most definitely put on in the Croft’s factory, in 1909 and sold like this.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

At this point I think the best thing all of us "small" stakeholders could do is to directly and individually reach out to the reputable big hobby stakeholders and request that they release a statement and initiate actions, either separately or collaboratively, to restore some confidence to the hobby. Such a statement would most impactful if it said something to the effect that:

-They are taking these allegations seriously and are actively looking into them

-If there are findings that any of the allegations are indeed true they are committed to taking actions in an effort to prevent further occurrences of such instances from being possible

-If they have not already done so, they will begin efforts in earnest to solicit cooperation from the proper legal authorities in hopes of getting their assistance to investigate any of these allegations that, if true, would be violations of federal, state of local fraud statutes or any other laws

-They will do their best to provide timely and regular updates to the hobby stakeholders through future public statements to keep everyone aware of the findings, developments and progress being made

Think of the positive impact that such a collaborative and cooperative joint statement and effort by the major TPGs, big auction houses, etc. would have right now in stabilizing things and coordinating the currently scattered and largely "unofficial" efforts to actually deal with these issues that are clearly very troubling and concerning to the stakeholders in the hobby.

It would also be very helpful if a set of flip-numbers and flip-number ranges of items that MIGHT be affected by these allegations could be assembled and kept up-to-date and made available in a public place so that the vast majority of authenticated collectibles, which are not involved in these allegations, could continue to be bought, sold and otherwise exchanged with confidence by hobby stakeholders who are not involved.

Not as big as this issue but did anyone ever hear PSA, JSA or SGC indicate what actions they were taken to the fake signed cards? They just waited everyone out. Maybe SGC dumping autographs was their response.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by orly57

Maybe you can keep your opinions on these issues to your wack-job, conspiracy theory forums, and leave only baseball card opinions on net54.

Guys, don't feed the troll.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Many good Americans died to defend this idiot’s right to speak freely. As repugnant as I find his post I would not take it down. Just let it be a reminder that there are people like this out there.

It was tangentially related to cards. Don’t muzzle him, just ignore or explain why you disagree and move on.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Bram99

You can also narrow it down to sports and non-sports trading cards.

Coins are probably ok too as they are tougher to trim...

[chalupacollects]

[QUOTE=bobbyw8469;1883650]I'm totally sickened by all this. In my opinion, there is a big difference between removing wax stains with pantyhose and trimming cards and adding color. Disgusting.[/QUOTE]

If one chooses to remove wax or add color wearing panty hose that's their right!

As long as they do it in their own home I guess....

Sorry, couldn't resist!

[111gecko]

Rarely post but have done business with many of you. After years of being a fraud examiner; I know a couple things to be true: If there is something nefarious going on 1) someone who feels they didn’t get a big enough cut or 2) has a big mouth with too much to drink will always talk. It only takes 1 to unravel it all....I would surmise that day is coming.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

Coins are probably ok too as they are tougher to trim...

Trim yes, alter.... nope, plenty of altered coins out there. And some of the same arguments apply, like what level of cleaning is ok and what isn't.

[jad22]

Wouldn't it be easier to figure out all this junk out if Ebay just put the bidder id back without scrambling/masking it?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by jad22

Wouldn't it be easier to figure out all this junk out if Ebay just put the bidder id back without scrambling/masking it?

Yep, and every auction house and consignor listed the owner of cards in their auctions.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Yep, and every auction house and consignor listed the owner of cards in their auctions.

Other than famous collections, I can't recall seeing the consignor listed for any auction, in any field.

[t206madman]

Originally Posted by griffon512

"Sandy Hoax." 26 people died in that elementary school shooting, including 20 kids between 6-7 years old. If you are going to write disgusting conspiracy theory BS find another site for it. That's probably the worst thing I've ever seen written on this board.

The elementary school was closed in 2008 due to asbestos and mold. The public records all prove that. The school purchased the 26 trees for each of the deceased before the event happened, there are photos of the trees before the day is supposedly happened. Numerous crisis actors were caught laughing and messing up their lines on the day of the event. There was a sign at the school that said "everyone must check in" and they were handing out water bottles to all the actors that were just walking in circles.

There were no dead victims, it was all fake. I'm 100% positive it was fake, and so are millions of other people. Alex Jones's company is owned by CNN you morons. If you think it's disgusting trying to help people out and tell them the truth, then shame on you.

On 9/11, three buildings collapsed at the speed of gravity due to 2 plane crashes. WTC 7 never got hit by a plane and yet somehow CNN and BBC announced it collapsed before it even did. If you all think this is disgusting and want to further censorship and the demise of America, then fine, take part.

Please take my name off my profile posts, I have no idea why Leon would do that to spite me. Hell just remove my account and ban me, ya'll are too stupid for me.

[Exhibitman]

[Leon]

There is a rule at the top of every page that says if you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be by your post (or attainable from it). With respect to that you are more than welcome to share your views. But you have to be accountable for what you say on this forum, just like everyone else, and that is why your name is there. You won't be banned unless you do something of a bannable nature. If you want to be banned, you can just leave, no one will follow you.
Only having crazy and or distorted views of reality, in and of itself, won't get you banned here. With a little over 10,000 members we have to have a few crazy ones.

This all said you are welcome to start a thread in the watercooler section to discuss it more or you can just leave. Whatever floats your boat, but this thread should be to discuss the original topic.

Originally Posted by t206madman

The elementary school was closed in 2008 due to asbestos and mold. The public records all prove that. The school purchased the 26 trees for each of the deceased before the event happened, there are photos of the trees before the day is supposedly happened. Numerous crisis actors were caught laughing and messing up their lines on the day of the event. There was a sign at the school that said "everyone must check in" and they were handing out water bottles to all the actors that were just walking in circles.

There were no dead victims, it was all fake. I'm 100% positive it was fake, and so are millions of other people. Alex Jones's company is owned by CNN you morons. If you think it's disgusting trying to help people out and tell them the truth, then shame on you.

On 9/11, three buildings collapsed at the speed of gravity due to 2 plane crashes. WTC 7 never got hit by a plane and yet somehow CNN and BBC announced it collapsed before it even did. If you all think this is disgusting and want to further censorship and the demise of America, then fine, take part.

Please take my name off my profile posts, I have no idea why Leon would do that to spite me. Hell just remove my account and ban me, ya'll are too stupid for me.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by t206madman

The elementary school was closed in 2008 due to asbestos and mold. The public records all prove that. The school purchased the 26 trees for each of the deceased before the event happened, there are photos of the trees before the day is supposedly happened. Numerous crisis actors were caught laughing and messing up their lines on the day of the event. There was a sign at the school that said "everyone must check in" and they were handing out water bottles to all the actors that were just walking in circles.

There were no dead victims, it was all fake. I'm 100% positive it was fake, and so are millions of other people. Alex Jones's company is owned by CNN you morons. If you think it's disgusting trying to help people out and tell them the truth, then shame on you.

On 9/11, three buildings collapsed at the speed of gravity due to 2 plane crashes. WTC 7 never got hit by a plane and yet somehow CNN and BBC announced it collapsed before it even did. If you all think this is disgusting and want to further censorship and the demise of America, then fine, take part.

Please take my name off my profile posts, I have no idea why Leon would do that to spite me. Hell just remove my account and ban me, ya'll are too stupid for me.

You seriously think no news outlet or the kids from that town or parents would have spoken out about the "Fake" event? You're nuts dude. And laughable. I'm glad I'm too stupid for you. Bye bye loony tunes.

Andy Huntoon

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by steve B

Other than famous collections, I can't recall seeing the consignor listed for any auction, in any field.

Did any other field have the level of pervasive fraud just uncovered in a month by volunteers? The obscured consignees is ONE OF THE MAJOR REASONS we're in this situation.

[Misunderestimated]

I was sort of thinking about the Salvador Mundi "Da Vinci" too.
There is a recent Podcast by Michael Lewis that dealt with this and seems apposite.... It talks about the incentives for corrupt authentication in what may have been the ultimate collectible of the past several years.
https://atrpodcast.com/episodes/the-...nardo-s1!7616f

Some other stray thoughts.

--Authentication (and grading) is market driven like everything else and PSA occupies a strong position in the market ... (Good for them but maybe too good for them?)... As I think it was Kenny Cole who wisely noted several posts above, collectors would be mad if they took longer and charged more .... On the other hand the pricing structure is supposed to mean that we can expect more scrutiny when the stakes are higher (based on the value of the submission although this is a bit murky sometimes).

Maybe when the stakes really are high we should recognize that PSA/SGC/BGS are worth what they can do for the price charged -- Maybe consumers should demand and be willing to pay more then. (They are still bound by their guarantees)
Maybe if the card is really important we should demand a "higher authority" i.e. a more expensive one or more than one.
==
The Graders
I've never been that adept at predicting grades -- others have a much better eye. Still, I have no idea how anyone could ever detect that wax was removed or some other things that are part of this debate ... From the grader's perspective how can they be at fault ? They are innocent dupes unless they take into consideration who the submitter is ... Of course if you are intent on deceiving the graders that's really easy to get around.
Submitters, Deceptive Sellers
Its another thing to knowingly submit it under false pretenses and then to sell it once the submitter gets it past the grading authority (knowing that the grading company was "deceived") -- the same holds true of accepting the consignment knowing the grading company was deceived.That furthers the deception.
==

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by t206madman

The elementary school was closed in 2008 due to asbestos and mold. The public records all prove that. The school purchased the 26 trees for each of the deceased before the event happened, there are photos of the trees before the day is supposedly happened. Numerous crisis actors were caught laughing and messing up their lines on the day of the event. There was a sign at the school that said "everyone must check in" and they were handing out water bottles to all the actors that were just walking in circles.

There were no dead victims, it was all fake. I'm 100% positive it was fake, and so are millions of other people. Alex Jones's company is owned by CNN you morons. If you think it's disgusting trying to help people out and tell them the truth, then shame on you.

On 9/11, three buildings collapsed at the speed of gravity due to 2 plane crashes. WTC 7 never got hit by a plane and yet somehow CNN and BBC announced it collapsed before it even did. If you all think this is disgusting and want to further censorship and the demise of America, then fine, take part.

Please take my name off my profile posts, I have no idea why Leon would do that to spite me. Hell just remove my account and ban me, ya'll are too stupid for me.

Listen dumbass, my brother was killed in an accident when he was fourteen. If you told my father he was making it up he would have have knocked your hillbilly teeth right down your throat. Please leave this board.

[t206madman]

I never gave my opinion of any company or person baseball related. I simply asked if I should suspect trimming. I'm going to check into the legality of you displaying my name without my permission. I probably agreed to something allowing this, but it is against my wished and will seek legal advice on the matter. As for sandy hoax, it was fake, and anyone with there head still in there ass this long is beyond repair. If you think I'm crazy Leon, please check out Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth. Maybe you can withness 4000 other crazy engineers who don't think two planes can collapse three buildings at the speed of gravity. You all are the laughable ones, just eating up and believe what the fakes news tells you, steering you sheep into the direction they want you to go.

Again, I never consented to my full name being displayed publicly, and you did that because I mentioned sandy hoax. If you want to play a part in censorship, that's on your conscience. If you want to grow a pair and do some research, I suggest starting with wtc 7 and making your way on up. You all have been deceived greatly, and the PSA scandal is small potatoes compared to what's really going on.

Originally Posted by Leon

There is a rule at the top of every page that says if you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be by your post (or attainable from it). With respect to that you are more than welcome to share your views. But you have to be accountable for what you say on this forum, just like everyone else, and that is why your name is there. You won't be banned unless you do something of a bannable nature. If you want to be banned, you can just leave, no one will follow you.
Only having crazy and or distorted views of reality, in and of itself, won't get you banned here. With a little over 10,000 members we have to have a few crazy ones.

This all said you are welcome to start a thread in the watercooler section to discuss it more or you can just leave. Whatever floats your boat, but this thread should be to discuss the original topic.