Probstein123 Still amazed he is in business

[ngrow9]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

The only reason you can even complain about this is because of the semi-transparent bidding system that ebay employs.

With AHs you can't see anything ... you think this would be more or less attractive to shills?

I realize this is probably a fruitless response, but one of the greatest downside risks of shilling in any auction system is that you outbid the field and get stuck with your own item. Should that happen on eBay, the actual out of pocket loss is rather minimal, basically just the listing fees (if any) and portion of the final price kept by eBay (around 9%). However, the odds of winning your own lot on eBay are quite low, because you can always retract a bid. So despite any transparency, there is little risk to shilling on eBay.

Conversely, should you outbid the field in an AH auction, your out-of-pocket loss will be much more significant, as you will owe both the hefty consignment fee as well as the bidder's premium. You could easily end up losing 1/3rd of the value of the item in the end. Moreover, it is much harder (if not impossible) to retract a bid.

Ergo, even though eBay may be a little more transparent, overall I believe the risk of shilling is greater on eBay than at an AH for the simple reasons that the risk of winning your own lot is much lower due to retraction, and the cost of winning your own lot is much lower than at an AH.

[ullmandds]

I used to buy from him somewhat regularly...but will definitely think twice about doing so these days.

[CardTarget]

The guy takes GREAT pictures in every one of his auctions. Front pics, back pics, high quality.

It's not his job to police his auctions to make sure that the consigners cousin isn't bidding. That's unrealistic.

He's doing a good job and earning his commission - unless there is evidence that he's directly involved leave the guy alone.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by ngrow9

I realize this is probably a fruitless response, but one of the greatest downside risks of shilling in any auction system is that you outbid the field and get stuck with your own item. Should that happen on eBay, the actual out of pocket loss is rather minimal, basically just the listing fees (if any) and portion of the final price kept by eBay (around 9%). However, the odds of winning your own lot on eBay are quite low, because you can always retract a bid. So despite any transparency, there is little risk to shilling on eBay.

Conversely, should you outbid the field in an AH auction, your out-of-pocket loss will be much more significant, as you will owe both the hefty consignment fee as well as the bidder's premium. You could easily end up losing 1/3rd of the value of the item in the end. Moreover, it is much harder (if not impossible) to retract a bid.

Ergo, even though eBay may be a little more transparent, overall you are much more likely to be subjected to shilling on eBay than at an AH for the simple reasons that the risk of winning your own lot is much lower due to retraction, and the cost of winning your own lot is much lower than at an AH.

"I realize this is probably a fruitless response" - It is. Providing valid reasons pro AH and anti-ebay are never considered. Higher prices realized through auctions than on ebay are obvious proof of shill bidding (sarcasm). There can be no other explanation (even though many have been offered).

And again you hit on the obvious question/concern that Paul never has addressed. There is little to no downside to shilling on ebay. If you get caught, you get "banned" until you create a new account or get someone else to do your bidding (pun intended). Beyond the token banning by ebay, has anyone ever been prosecuted for any of these nefarious activities? If so, great, and I stand corrected. But if not, then STFU about ebay's "transparency". It is a law with no teeth. Much like "keep right except to pass".

And regarding ebay's so-called transparency,
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...l-bidding.html - Often what appears to be shill bidding isn't a violation. If there is evidence of shill bidding, we will take action, which may include listing cancellation or referral to law enforcement. However, our privacy policy prevents us from disclosing the details of our investigation to other members, including the person who reported the issue.

So if someone is banned or an auction is taken down, how does anyone actually know it was because of shill bidding? Or how does anyone know shill bidding is even happening? Ebay basically implies in the first statement that y'all are just stupid buyers and couldn't recognize a shill bidder, or shill bidding isn't going on, which makes transparency a moot point then anyway, right?

[tcdyess]

Ok, now I'm thoroughly confused. I am following an auction from him on a card that I want, but now have no clue whether or not I should bid.... meh.....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/360586885146...84.m1423.l2649

[smtjoy]

Originally Posted by tcdyess

Ok, now I'm thoroughly confused. I am following an auction from him on a card that I want, but now have no clue whether or not I should bid.... meh.....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/360586885146...84.m1423.l2649

Humm yea I would not be worried bidding on this card..........

Top bidder-
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 136
Items bid on: 92
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 94%

Underbidder-
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 43
Items bid on: 7
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 62%

[chaddurbin]

imo t206 and cj commons usually were consigned by collectors and bidded by other pre-war collectors. most of the shill biddings would occur with modern stuff or low pop graded where there are more speculators and investors, would be more advantageous there where you can create a market for a card or simply get a buzz or hype it up.

[obcmac]

I am 100% convinced that shilling goes on in Rick's auction. I don't have any evidence whether it's Rick or not. At the same time, I will continue to bid on his cards that interest me. I bid at a level that I'm happy winning the card. I have yet to find a seller that makes me pay more than I am willing to pay. I hope he gets more CJ's.

Mac Wubben

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by obcmac

I am 100% convinced that shilling goes on in Rick's auction. I don't have any evidence whether it's Rick or not. At the same time, I will continue to bid on his cards that interest me. I bid at a level that I'm happy winning the card. I have yet to find a seller that makes me pay more than I am willing to pay. I hope he gets more CJ's.

Mac Wubben

I've never paid more than I was willing to either... actually I'm not really sure how doing that would be possible, without a gun pointed to my head.

It's fine paying a maximum amount that's comfortable, but isn't it nice to get a good deal once in a while?

Let's say a card routinely sells for 1000$. One pops up on eBay and a shill bid takes it from 600$ to $900... you win it for 905.... you should have won it for 605... are you comfortable with that?

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

Humm yea I would not be worried bidding on this card..........

Top bidder-
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 136
Items bid on: 92
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 94%

Underbidder-
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 43
Items bid on: 7
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 62%

Kirk to Enterprise .....yellow alert !!