most overrated player and pitcher

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

As long as we are airing subjects like this.

Player. OK, it's heresy, but MICKEY MANTLE. How does he, playing for some of the greatest teams ever most of his career and batting cleanup, only have FOUR seasons of 100 plus RBIs. That's the same as Minnie Minoso that renowned slugger and fewer than many names who will be a footnote in history. Mays played about the same number of years if you take away the ones he lost to the Army and he was way ahead of Mickey in HRs. Now granted he had fabulous post seasons, and I am certainly not suggesting he was not a great great player, but I am saying given his icon status he is OVERRATED. I would put him on my third team outfield maybe at best.

Pitcher. Nolan Ryan. I don't think I even need to make my case.

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Posted By: dennis

they pitched around mantle with men on base.NO TEAM let mantle beat them. don't lets stats sway you.mantle was one of the best players ever.he was a switch hitter, he was faster than mays,more powerful than mays,got on base more than mays,and was mays peer as a fielder. also mantles teams WON because of him. he led the league in runs scored all thru the 1950's and even tho his rbi's were not high,he was top 5 every year.it was a different era. any one who says mantle was over-rated just never saw him play. check out his appearences on the leader board. hall of fame moniter he is # 15 all time. http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mantlmi01.shtml

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Posted By: Rob

Wasn't this topic locked?

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Posted By: leon

This was locked but it wasn't fair to Peter. I just want to let it be known that off topic stuff shouldn't be as frequent as it's been lately. As for most overrated player I think it's any of the cry baby steroid injesting home run hitters of recent.....regards

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Im probably the last person you'd expect to defend a Yankees player but saying Mantle only drove in 100 runs 4 times means he was overrated is a ridiculous statement.The reason for that is simple,he drove in 92 runs or more 9 times in his career.Those 5 seasons he finished between 92-99 were all seasons with the 154 game schedule so right there he's losing 8 games as compared to todays players.Four of the seasons he walked over 100 times and the one season he didnt he only played 121 games and had 92 rbi's and 79 walks.Four of the seasons the Yankees ran away with the division so he wasnt in there all the time near th end of the year,the one year they didnt win by alot,he had 99 rbi's and 113 walks in 147 games

I wouldnt have him higher than 4th all-time outfield either.Thats because theres people named Ruth,Mays,Williams on my first teams and Bonds,Cobb,Musial on my 2nd and Aaron/Speaker/Dimaggio on my 3rd team.Its not because he wasnt a great player.

My most overrated player has to be Reggie Jackson who hit for a low average,struck out more times than anyone by a large margin when he retired,and he wasnt a good fielder.

Hes followed closely by Mark McGwire(steroid issues aside) who had more bad years than good years.High strikeouts,low average,average fielder until the end of his career when he was below average(he was a failed 3rdbaseman),he was slow before he had foot problems,then became the ultimate base clog.He had a high home run per at-bat ratio and that was his hall of fame ticket.I never understood how he could be a definite no question first time ballot hall of famer and Fred McGriff wont get enough support to make it.Theres a huge difference in a 1st time ballot HOFer and a guy who doesnt make it,but i dont see a difference between McGriff and McGwire that warrants that.McGwire was great for a spurt and all McGriff did was put up 15 straight seasons where he had 81 or more rbi's(8 100 rbi seasons) and his lowest total(81) came when he was with a very weak Devil Rays team

Most overrated pitcher is Koufax.Im not getting into why,ive discussed it way too many times and i wont anymore.Its no fun to get into the same discussion constantly when my views havent changed.Thats just my opinion

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Posted By: Anson

Which one of these doesn't belong:

Cal Ripken Jr.
Tony Gwynn
Mark McGwire


The Hall of Fame is supposed to be for the best of the best. I'm a little concerned at some of the players that have squeeked in there. Compared to other professional sports, baseball seems to be a bit more lenient. Think of all the players with so-so or even sad stats who made it in. I don't believe McGwire should go but, then again, I don't believe Tinker or Lloyd Waner should be in either.

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Posted By: jay behrens

No brainer in the pitching department, Koufax. As someone else mentioned, that debate has been reharshed enough, no need for anyone to some to his defense. Those of us that think is overrated have pretty much made up our minds, as have those that think he was the greatest pitcher since the curve ball was invented. This doesn't mean that he doesn't belong in the HOF. It jsut means that he is incredicly overrated.

Hitting, I too would go with Big Mac. Strictly a one trick pony and that one trick is well represented already in the HOF. And at least Killebrew was capable of a few other positions in his career before finally ending up at 1B. Besides, can you seriously consider someone for the HOF that spent a season struggling to stay above the Mendoza line?

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Overrated: Don Sutton, Phil Niekro, Bert Blyleven, Don Drysdale, Tony Oliva.

Underrated: Ron Guidry, Don Mattingly

If a "Hall of Above Average Players" was created, Koufax certainly wouldn't be included because he would be too good, but you could induct on first ballots all of the players I listed above.

But I think this was originally meant to be another Nolan Ryan bashing thread - Peter is getting ripped off!

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

I don't think we are saying inconsistent things about Mantle. In my original post I acknowledged he was a very great player. I just think that there is a disparity between his status as THE hobby icon (his cards sell for multiples of equivalent Mays cards for example, he is THE card to own in every set from 51-69, he has a mythical quality that greater players do not, and so forth ad nauseum) and his place in baseball history which is probably in the third or fourth team all time outfield. I would personally take Mays, Ruth, Cobb, Williams, Musial, DiMaggio, and Bonds ahead of him, and possibly Speaker and Jackson (Shoeless, that is) too. A great player can be overrated too. That was my only point. EDITED TO ADD You guys who think Koufax is overrated are in disagreement with no less an authority than Casey Stengel who called him the best pitcher he had ever seen.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I bet you Casey would have never said that about him in the 50s. That pretty much covers half of Koufax's career.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

How anyone can claim that Koufax is the "most overrated" pitcher is beyond me. His last four years of his career he averaged about 25 wins a season and an ERA well under 2. That, combined with 3 Cy Youngs (when only one was awarded for both leagues) and two back to back shutouts in the World Series (on two days rest) ends this discussion. Oh, and he also averaged about 300 innings per year during that period. Finally, in 57 World Series innings, he managed a 0.95 ERA. And let's not forget the 4 no hitters....

All the while he had major arm problems and pitched in tremendous pain. The only basis to claim he is overrated is that the great majority of his brilliant carerr was crammed into these four years. If the four years were just really good and not, perhaps, the greatest four years a modern era pitcher has ever had in a row, then I might tend to agree with the sentiment of the naysayers here. Talk to me about a guy like Don Sutton, a HOF player who pitched for 23 seasons, over 5000 innings, and had one 20 win season.
Finally, we can all agree that we're couch potatoes. However, when players from Koufax's era were asked who the most dominating pitcher that they had ever seen was, they unanimously say it was Sandy.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

There are many who think the HOF should be based a player's ability to maintain at least an above average performance for a really long time period.

To put this in "vintage card" perspective, compare prices on a Niekro rookie to that of a Koufax rookie - gives you a better idea of what "Fame" means.

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Posted By: Glenn

Jerry Koosman only had slightly more wins and K's than Sandy Koufax, but have you seen the prices on his rookie card?!

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Posted By: Anson

that's pretty hilarious.

Yeah, and what's up with the high prices for the Fritz Ackley and Ken McMullen rookies?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

And imagine how much Kooz's rookie card would be worth if he hadn't been paired with such an overrated pitcher....

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Posted By: jay behrens

Koufax wouldn't be considered such an overrated pitcher if he actualy had a winning record his first 7 years in the league. It always amazes me how Koufax fans just dismiss his first 6 years, which are mediocre, at best. No longevity and no consistancy other than he was consistanly bad for 6 years and dominating for another 6. Thus, why many think he is overrated.

there is no arguing that he was a dominant pitcher in his prime, but show me another that sucked so badly at teh begining of his career and is still regarded as a great pitcher. I looked at a bunch of lefty HOFers and none went more than 3 years before showing their greatness and lefties are notorious sor careers that start slow.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, I think you're not appreciating what Koufax went through with Walt Alston as his manager in the early years. Alston pitched him very inconsistently, pushing him in and out of the rotation for no good reason. This was a recipe for disaster for a pitcher like Koufax who was trying to get into some kind of consistent groove. This is not just my opinion; most baseball historians support this theory as the reason for Koufax's difficult start to his career. Once he began to pitch consistently, he took off.

Also, it's not like Koufax's arguably slow start was such an aberration: Bob Gibson took many starts and innings pitched before he had a good season too. Maybe not as many as Sandy, but certainly within that range. And consider the fact that Koufax pitched a bit more than half the innings that Gibson did yet had 3 seasons with an ERA under 2 compared to 1 season for Gibson.

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Posted By: Julie

WANNA FIGHT?

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Posted By: Glenn

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/alltimeoverrated.html

Phil Rizzutto and Nolan Ryan according to "The List". Pretty good choices if you ask me.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

And don't forget Koufax was only 30 when he retired. If he hadn't had such severe injuries, can you even imagine?

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

but I really don't believe that many people consider Ryan "the greatest (hurler) in baseball history." That's an absurd statement.

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Posted By: Anson

Randy Johnson sucked pretty bad for his first 4 or 5 years.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

In my opinion, big time hitters who were bad fielders are often overrated. Many Hall of Fame voters beleive that a player's friendliness to the press is a more important quality than fielding talent when determing who is a Hall of Famer.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Koufax has Alston to thank for pushing him into the majors because without those first 5 years where he wasnt ready he wouldnt have enough seasons to even qualify for hall of fame induction.

Jeff, we've(you and I personally) discussed this before in this forum about Koufax,nothing has changed on my part,nothing will,ive known about Sandy Koufax since before i went to the hall of fame when i was 6.My opinion on him was formed due to research over a long time and has been completed for years.You want to know anything from me go to the search function in the forum because this discussion has happened too many times to rehash it again

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Posted By: Glenn

Scott,

Perhaps you're surrounding yourself with too educated a crowd. Ask a random sample of ESPN viewers or co-workers (which I've done) or in-laws (which I've also done) who was the greatest pitcher ever, and I'd bet you dollars to donuts the most common response you get is Nolan Ryan. Half of them don't even recognize the name Walter Johnson.

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

I have to go with Nolan Ryan -- yes he belongs in the HOF ... but he really isn't one of the greatest Pitchers ever or even of my lifetime... If you had to pick one player to pitch one game for you to win from all of the starting Pitchers of the past 30 years Ryan doesn't even enter into the conversation for me.. Let's see we've got Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Jim Palmer, Roger Clemens, Gre Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson (once he got his game together)...

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

I think they get "favorite" confused with "greatest". Out of all the sporting event moments I have looked forward to, going behind home plate to watch a Nolan Ryan fastball come straight at me was easily the best - what a rush. And there was always the possibility of seeing a no-hitter. It was pure excitement to see the guy pitch.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I'd agree with Scott on that. If I was told that I could only see one more game in person and had 2 games to choose from, one featuring Ryan and one feturing Clemens, I'm going to the Ryan game. Clemens is easily the greatest pitcher of our era, but for pure excitment, you can't touch Ryan.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

John, I don't think Koufax would thank Alston for "pushing him into the majors." More likely, he'd curse him for not letting him pitch consistently when it was clear he had major league stuff.

I've never heard any major leaguer, manager or player claim that Nolan Ryan was the greatest pitcher they had ever seen -- yet I've heard a bunch say that about Koufax. And the word "overrated" never comes out of their mouths when discussing Koufax. Are you suggesting that you're in a better position to know greatness than they are?

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Posted By: john/z28jd

The only thing im suggesting Jeff is you dont ask me to explain it again for the 50th time.Use the search function and argue with the results all you want,me from the past wont care.

Koufax also pitched 12 seasons starting at 19,if he waited till 22 or 23 when he was major league caliber to make his debut then he wouldnt be a hall of famer because you need 10 years playing time.Thats all i meant by that.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I get it -- so if he had only pitched nine years and not the ten required to be HOF eligibile --thereby removing his first, few average years from his record -- that would make him less of a great pitcher? That makes sense. According to that logic, had that been the case, Koufax's worth as a pitcher would be about equal to Fred McGriff's as a hitter.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

You dont get it,if he pitched 9 years he isnt eligible for the hall of fame and then he doesnt get in SO hes lucky he pitched before hes ready otherwise he wouldnt be a hall of famer.Not too many guys pitch in the majors before theyre 22.Do you understand that? Is that too complicated? Dont read into everything so much

I havent discussed why i think hes overrated except to say you and I have discussed this before on this board and nothings changed on my part.Why have the same discussion if theres nothing new to add when we have a perfectly good search function? I just used it,i found our conversation,we laughed,we cried,we had a good time....lets not ruin that

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

John, you keep saying you don't want to discuss this issue further and yet you simply cannot keep your fingers off the keyboard. I'm guessing you have some other impulse issues when it comes to your hands, so I suppose we can all be comforted with the fact that your hands are on the keyboard and not someplace else.

As for what you don't seem to get, the issue is which pitcher is the "most overrated." That Koufax is or is not a Hall of Famer is not the only thing that matters here. Had he pitched only 9 years, and not made the HOF, that would not diminish his greatness.

Again, when you're not insulting me, perhaps you can answer the one question that you have conveniently ignored: if the great majority of the players and managers, coaches, etc. of Koufax's era believe that he was the greatest pitcher of his time, why do you feel that you are better situated to disagree? Are you actually a former player or just a bigmouth behind a computer? Now, I know you don't want to discuss this again, so I'm sure your response will only be added to this thread in about...ten seconds.

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Posted By: jay behrens

No one is arguing that at his peak, Koufax wasn't dominant. But in order to be a truly great player, you need to be great for the vast majority of career, not half of it.

Was he rushed to the majors? Most likely. Was he misused by Alston. Maybe. If he doesn't get rushed to the majors, he probably has a great 8 year career and not make the HOF. Not making the HOF pretty much puts an end to and discussion about greatness. We would just be wondering how great he could have been if he had stayed healthy. We still do that with him, but we will never know.

Part of greatness is longevity. That is why when you look at the short list of truly great players they all have pretty much one thing in common, a career that lasted 20 or more years in which they were great for the vast majority of the time.

Would we hold Cobb, Wagner, Johnson, et al in the same regard if their careers were only 12 years long instead of 20 plus?

The big thing is that Koufax has going for him is that people are still alive to remember him pitching. greatness tends to fade when there is no one around that actually remembers the person playing and all there is left is the record book. We have testimonials galore to the greatness of various 19c and Deadball players that are not in the HOF, yet they get no respect outside of SABR and die hard fans. We won't be alive to see if this will happen to Koufax.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, it really depends on what you consider 'greatness' to be. I'm in the camp that holds that a lot of 'good' seasons strung together does not necessarily equate to greatness, i.e., Don Sutton. He was a really good pitcher but hardly 'great' at almost any given point in his career. Compare to Koufax who as brilliant as any pitcher has ever been for a four year period. Absolutely brilliant, courageous, and accomplished. No doubt that other pitchers that were almost as good as him over a four or five year period might have had better careers due to more years pitched; however, that does not take away from Koufax's singular greatness over not one season, not two, but really over like 5 years. He also won the Triple Crown of pitching. So, while you can criticize him for not putting up the numbers that some others have done, you cannot criticize his singular greatness over this period which is trumpeted by his peers. When people are asked "who is the greatest pitcher of all time?" -- and they mention Koufax -- they're not giving that answer based on all-time career stats on a piece of paper. They're saying Koufax because he was the greatest pitcher they ever saw in their lifetimes.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Show me where I've dismissed what Koufax did during his 5 years of greatness? I even admitted to it my last post. You obviously didn't read my post. Go back and reread it. And Forrest wonders why I repeat myself so much.

For you, greatness seems to include 7 years of being a .500 pitcher (he was one game over .500 after 7 years). You can have it. To me, and many others, you can't be great if you can't win half your games for a 6 year stretch. It took Johnson 4 years before he broke .500. At least with him you know he pitched for crappy teams. Meanwhile, he won the triple crown 3 times and won the MVP award twice. What's Koufax's excuse? The Dodgers were pretty good from 1955-60. I seem to remember a few WS appearances and a title in there. Using your criteria for greatness can we include Ken Williams and Benny Kauff as some of the greatest hitters ever? I know I wouldn't and love both of those players.

There is a huge difference between between peak value greatness and career greatness. Johnson, Matty, Alexander, Grove, etc have both. Koufax has one. Thus, he doesn't belong in a discussion of the truly greats.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Can't remember who pointed this out first. MAy have been Forrest, but take a look at Gooden's career. You essentially have Koufax in reverse. Are you going to tell me Gooden is one of the all-time greatest pitcher too?

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: dennis

for those first few years gooden was greatone of the best ever,94mph fast ball,big leg buckling curve,but arm trouble and maybe too much too soon...what could of been? and a great nickname too!

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Posted By: Julie

Someone said, in considering whether a player should be in the HOF, you should ask the question "Was he the greatest in the game AT ANY TIME during his career?" (I assume he didn't mean for one game.)

I keep thinking I'm perfectly happy saying he belongs in the Hall, but isn't one of the greatest...but then I'm not
The years during which he was great, he was SO great. Bob has no interest in the Dodgers, and he's even sorta anti-Semetic (having been married to me since '66), but he goes NUTS trying to describe how great Koufax was...
"Upon Never Having Seen Koufax Pitch" R.B. Kitaj, 1967

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Posted By: Bob

"a look at Gooden's career. You essentially have Koufax in reverse"

I took a look at Gooden vs. Koufax at www.baseball-reference.com. This site allows you to look a appearences by a player in leader boards amoung their contemporaries. I'm not seeing that Gooden's beginning career say from 84-88 is anywhere near as dominant as Koufax's end, say from from 61-66.

Gooden led the league in wins, and era once, K's twice. Won 1 NL Cy Young award.

Koufax led the league in era 5 times, wins 3 times, K's 4 times. 3 ML Cy Young awards. 1 MVP.

I understand Koufax did not have the career numbers of a Johnson and perhaps he is a little over rated by people who assume that without injury he would of continued at his 61-66 pace forever. However his greatness over a six year period has been approached by very few.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Sorry Jeff i was at work.Your response is very immature and doesnt help your side of the story,but i will answer the one part.

When i said he wouldnt have made the hall of fame if he played 9 years thats all i meant by that.I didnt mean if he didnt make the hall of fame he wouldnt have been a great pitcher.I didnt say he wasnt a great pitcher.I only,solely,singularly,meant if he only pitched 9 years he wouldnt have made the hall of fame because theres a minimum requirement. Lets review:
9 years or less-not eligible for hall of fame
10 or more-eligible

Thats all i meant by that,it had nothing to do with any stats he put up,nothing to do with any records he held,it had nothing to do with anything except explaining the fact if he played 9 years or less he wouldnt have made the hall of fame.If you cant understand that now then i cant help you.

I did also give my side of why i think hes overrated.Its in the search feature,enter Koufax,enter my vintage handle(z28jd) enter overrated,enter whatever you want that you think will bring up an old discussion about this.Heres another point,if you ask me questions,ill answer the post.It doesnt mean anything other than the fact i check this site often.If you want to continue an immature conversation go right ahead.If you want my answers to your repeated questions despite me constantly emphasizing im not going to type it again use the search function,if you want to ignore this post then good for you,i dont care.

For some reason you like having deja vu all over again with me.We've had the Koufax discussion twice before on this board do we really need a third,its obvious if you dont remember the first 2 im just wasting my time telling you especially if my initial post said (paraphrasing)dont ask about it.

I hope i explained this well enough and you can move on about it because no one wants to read the same thing over and over again

Just to add a note in case you want to continue this for some reason,I wont be home from 11am-10pm(estimated) on July 4th,i work till 8 then im going to go see fireworks afterwards so dont expect any answers from me between those hours.

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Posted By: calvindog

John, I'm sorry you think that my post was "immature." My advice in the future so that you won't be offended again: don't insult me first unless you don't mind getting your ass kicked out here again.

As for deja vu, I'll try again to ask a question that you still haven't answered: take a step away from your job on July 4th weekend and tell me how is that the great majority of Koufax's peers claim that he was the best pitcher they ever saw yet you think he's overrated. Do you think that you're better situated to discern greatness than they are? Why is it that your cold dissection of a player's stats counts more than professionals' opinions? Can you at least admit that in any discussion of greatness a player's peers should have some say?

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Sandy Koufax is the greatest pitcher ever.If there was one game only in baseball history left and i was the manager for that game and i could pick any pitcher it would be Sandy Koufax. If i was a girl and i could pick anyone to father my kids it would be Sandy Koufax so i could name him Sandy Koufax Jr and people would come up to him and say your father was the greatest pitcher ever,heres $5 and he would be the happiest kid ever!

If i was ever a comedian id start everyone one of my jokes with the following line "So this moron tells me Sandy Koufax is overrated...."

See this whole time i thought we were talking about Randy Slovacs(I have bad hearing) who was on my t-ball team.His father was the coach and he got picked for the all-star team eventho i was much better and ive been harboring a deep resentment towards him since i was 6.

7th game of the world series,no doubt in my mind,in anyones mind,i would have Sandy Koufax out there,even today at his advanced age,because hes the greatest and you and I Jeff, can watch from the stands,and ill buy you a beer because i feel bad about this whole thing.What do you like on your hot dog? oh no, put that wallet away, its on me silly! I dont want you to miss one pitch of the game.

If anyone questions Sandy Koufax again youve got Jeff and I to mess with! Question Randy Slovacs all you want tho.You out there Randy,bring it on!

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Posted By: Charlie

Who's Sandy Koufax?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

John, I knew you'd see it my way eventually. I think you're just working too hard on a holiday weekend. Glad you got some rest to clear your mind.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Oh thats it Charlie,we are about to trade punches like baseball cards!

God Bless Sandy Koufax
Man that i love
Stand beside him
and admire him
"threw" the night
he was sent from above
from the NL,to the Yankees
to the Giants,white with rage!!!
god bless Sandy Koufax,
he wont allow home runs

Sorry about my voice cracking near the end,but i get emotional everytime i put Sandy Koufax's name into God Bless America

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Posted By: calvindog

And John, just think how much brain power you're saving not having to answer the question I kept asking!

Now isn't it time to get back to work?

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I told you why hes the best ever.Do you know of any player who had their name put into the words of one of our countries most sacred songs? no! I dont think i need to put any stats down for you to realize that Jeff,the historical significance alone of the song should be proof enough.Now ill have no more of you saying hes overrated Jeff.Hes not,theres no way he could be and its just silly flimflarm

Im going to work now but if i come home and youre still a doubting Thomas about Sandy Koufax well ill just sit here and type till im blue in the face just so you realize how great of a pitcher he was!

Happy July 4th!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

John, you're logic really is brilliant. I'm surprised such brilliance hasn't allowed you to find a job that allows you to take the day off on July 4!

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Posted By: tbob

Tony Oliva the most overrated player?????
That's just nuts. If he had played anywhere else but Minnesota he'd be in the Hall. Even with all the injuries he was better than Kirby Puckett, who's in.
Scott you need to listen to Jim Palmer, Whitey Ford, and the other great pitchers of the era who almost to a man said that Tony O. was the best hitter in baseball in the 60's. Oliva was fast, had a rifle arm and was to the American League what Clemente was to the National League. Put him on the Yankees and he would have been an easy HOF pick, even with the crippling injuries which shortened his career. I saw you also had Blyleven listed as overrated. I guess you forgot about Carew and Killebrew or you could have dissed the whole Twins team of the 60's.