O/T Life or Death, One Game, My Starting 9

[Mark70Z]

2B - Pete Rose
1B - Lou Gehrig
RF - Roberto Clemente
DH - George Herman Ruth
SS - Cal Ripken Jr.
3B - B. Robby
LF - Ted Williams
CF - Willie Mays
C - Johnny Bench

SB - Gibson

[Runscott]

I changed my mind. All of these guys were flawless in the playoffs:

of - Clyde Milan
of - Harry Heilman
2b - Nap Lajoie
1b - George Sisler
of - Frank Thomas
dh - Don Mattingly
ss - Ernie Banks
3b - Ron Santo
c - Joe Torre
p - Felix Hernandez

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

One great postseason makes a player elite and worth starting over all of the all time greats? Laughable. Bumgarner is a really good pitcher, but let's not get carried away.

Um, one postseason? Madison Bumgarner has 3 rings. That's as many as Koufax. That's as many as Bob Gibson and Walter Johnson combined. Oh, and he's 25 years old. What's laughable is the willful ignorance displayed by so many that automatically think older is better. The theoretical question posed here was about who would be best in one game, LIFE OR DEATH, meaning the highest possible pressure situation. The closest comparison as far as baseball stats would be when the pressure is highest, namely, the postseason. More specifically, the World Series.

So, tell me this, without cheating and looking below, which postseason stats are better:

A) 4-0, 0.25 ERA, 0.528 WHIP, 31 K, 36 IP, 1 shutout.
B) 7-3, 2.14 ERA, 0.883 WHIP, 77 K, 88.1 IP, 2 shutouts.
C) 3-3, 2.52 ERA, 1.420 WHIP, 35 K, 50 IP, 1 shutout.
D) 4-3, 0.95 ERA, 0.825 WHIP, 61 K, 57 IP, 2 shutouts.
E) 7-2, 1.89 ERA, 0.889 WHIP, 92 K, 81 IP, 2 shutouts.
F) 3-0, 0.87 ERA, 0.935 WHIP, 8 K, 31 IP, 1 shutout.

Perhaps that will help give you some objectivity. There are still other factors that should be considered, such as the 60s being an incredibly pitcher-friendly era, and the modern game's dearth of complete games, and therefore shutouts.

So would you like to know who is who? Here ya go:

A) Madison Bumgarner - career World Series
B) Madison Bumgarner - career postseason total
C) Walter Johnson - career postseason (all World Series)
D) Sandy Koufax - career postseason (all World Series)
E) Bob Gibson - career postseason (all World Series)
F) Babe Ruth - career postseason (all World Series)

And for the record, I chose 5 pitchers and said I'd be fine with any of them. Bumgarner was one, and still is. And like I said before, I HATE HIM! I also chose Mathewson, but it's very difficult to compare pitching stats from the deadball era.

-Ryan

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I am of the opinion that one could take 9 of the best players today and you would win more than you would lose against any other team put together.

Molina
Cabrera
Cano
Tulo
Beltre
Stanton
Trout
McCutchen
Kershaw

It's possible due to training that they would, but if we are somehow assuming a player like Wagner could be in the same game as Mike Schmidt, then what are the condition the games are being played under? There isn't a major leaguer playing right now that could survive a week if they were thrust into a 19th century game facing Old Hoss Radbourn from 50 feet away and they're not wearing a batting helmet. A week in 19th century conditions and they would quit. I'm sure a 19th century player would have to adjust too, but he's adjusting the opposite way. He could get lazy with all the amenities.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Um, one postseason? Madison Bumgarner has 3 rings. That's as many as Koufax. That's as many as Bob Gibson and Walter Johnson combined. Oh, and he's 25 years old. What's laughable is the willful ignorance displayed by so many that automatically think older is better. The theoretical question posed here was about who would be best in one game, LIFE OR DEATH, meaning the highest possible pressure situation. The closest comparison as far as baseball stats would be when the pressure is highest, namely, the postseason. More specifically, the World Series.



So, tell me this, without cheating and looking below, which postseason stats are better:



A) 4-0, 0.25 ERA, 0.528 WHIP, 31 K, 36 IP, 1 shutout.

B) 7-3, 2.14 ERA, 0.883 WHIP, 77 K, 88.1 IP, 2 shutouts.

C) 3-3, 2.52 ERA, 1.420 WHIP, 35 K, 50 IP, 1 shutout.

D) 4-3, 0.95 ERA, 0.825 WHIP, 61 K, 57 IP, 2 shutouts.

E) 7-2, 1.89 ERA, 0.889 WHIP, 92 K, 81 IP, 2 shutouts.

F) 3-0, 0.87 ERA, 0.935 WHIP, 8 K, 31 IP, 1 shutout.



Perhaps that will help give you some objectivity. There are still other factors that should be considered, such as the 60s being an incredibly pitcher-friendly era, and the modern game's dearth of complete games, and therefore shutouts.



So would you like to know who is who? Here ya go:



A) Madison Bumgarner - career World Series

B) Madison Bumgarner - career postseason total

C) Walter Johnson - career postseason (all World Series)

D) Sandy Koufax - career postseason (all World Series)

E) Bob Gibson - career postseason (all World Series)

F) Babe Ruth - career postseason (all World Series)



And for the record, I chose 5 pitchers and said I'd be fine with any of them. Bumgarner was one, and still is. And like I said before, I HATE HIM! I also chose Mathewson, but it's very difficult to compare pitching stats from the deadball era.



-Ryan

Easy bub...you act like it matters. I know the World Series is the biggest stage, but there are usually five or so pitchers better than bumgarner every year....but this coming year he may be top three. I get he just had an amazing playoff run this past year, but it was in fact, this year's run that put him on your list. So those scoring at home, it's....

Ryan 1
Mike 1




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[ElCabron]

Did you just really call me Bub? Anyway, I wouldn't put Bumgarner in the top 5 last year or this year. He's a good pitcher, but not close to Kershaw. And there are several others that are also currently better than him. But he becomes someone else when it matters the most, and that's what we're talking about.

-Ryan

[Runscott]

At least no one picked Kershaw for their 'one game only' team. That would certainly be lunacy, given his meltdown in critical post-season games.

I agree with Ryan that the only do-able way to quantify 'one game only' performance is through post-season stats, but if you had the time (the 'Stache being the only person here who has that kind of time) I suppose you could go through a list of candidates' careers, picking out critical games only;e.g-I wouldn't count game 4 of the World Series if your team is up 3-0, but I would count critical games at the end of the season when you are in a pennant race.

In the end, gut feel seems to be as good a method as any. Personally, I find the wide variety of 'gut feels' on our forum to be very interesting, especially among those of us who have followed baseball players during the same periods. It's also interesting to see all the names on people's lists that represent completely non-quantifiable players, given that they played during periods where we don't have enough stats to make such judgements. But even in those instances, 'gut feel' based on what they've read about such players, is as valid as any method for choosing.

[Lgarza99]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Did you just really call me Bub? Anyway, I wouldn't put Bumgarner in the top 5 last year or this year. He's a good pitcher, but not close to Kershaw. And there are several others that are also currently better than him. But he becomes someone else when it matters the most, and that's what we're talking about.

-Ryan

That's what we are talking about. Like Kershaw being the top starter in this day and age. But, he wouldn't sniff the ball park in a life and death game for me!

[Orioles1954]

Compare Brooks Robinson's postseason stats to Mike Schmidt and the player who I would want manning the hot corner becomes very, very evident.

[btcarfagno]

If my life depends on it defense goes out the window. My pitching will be good enough and offense good enough that it won't matter.

LF Ty Cobb
2B Rogers Hornsby
RF Babe Ruth
1B Barry Bonds
DH Ted Williams
CF Willie Mays
SS Honus Wagner
C Josh Gibson
3B Mike Schmidt

SP Walter Johnson
Relief Randy Johnson
Closer Mariano Rivera

That team would beat any team made up of any other players 10 times out of 10.

I think.....

Tom C

[packs]

LF - Rickey Henderson
SS - Honus Wagner
RF - Babe Ruth
1B - Lou Gehrig
CF - Ken Griffey Jr.
DH - Ted Williams
2B - Rogers Hornsby
3B - George Brett
C - Yogi Berra

SP - Walter Johnson

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Did you just really call me Bub? Anyway, I wouldn't put Bumgarner in the top 5 last year or this year. He's a good pitcher, but not close to Kershaw. And there are several others that are also currently better than him. But he becomes someone else when it matters the most, and that's what we're talking about.



-Ryan

I was having some fun glad you didn't take offense to it.

Anyway, it might sound ridiculous, but kershaw is better than bum and I'd still take him in one game. I think he will prove it to us in the near future. That being said...bum has been great in the playoffs and I get why anyone would want him.


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[Lgarza99]

I still couldn't go with Kershaw because the future is now. There is no future if Kershaw is taking the mound.

[btcarfagno]

I don't really get the idea of using the playoff stats as what I will base my life on. I mean....if small sample sizes are what I am going to base it on why not go with Mark Whiten on the day he hit four homers? Ed Delahanty the day he hit four? Len Barker the day of his perfect game?

I wouldn't base my life on the outcome of small sample sizes. My "team" has so much hitting and pitching that it will more than make up for any "lack of clutchness" or whatever those using playoff stats are trying to say.

Tom C

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I don't really get the idea of using the playoff stats as what I will base my life on. I mean....if small sample sizes are what I am going to base it on why not go with Mark Whiten on the day he hit four homers? Ed Delahanty the day he hit four? Len Barker the day of his perfect game?



I wouldn't base my life on the outcome of small sample sizes. My "team" has so much hitting and pitching that it will more than make up for any "lack of clutchness" or whatever those using playoff stats are trying to say.



Tom C

This is why I choose kershaw...because overall he is a beast and has better overall numbers. But bum has been really good in the postseason, so apparently he is better than Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson....uh, no


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[bnorth]

1B Tino Marteniz
2B Robinson Cano
SS Derek Jeter
3B Wade Boggs
C Yogi Berra
OF Mickey Mantle
OF Babe Ruth
OF Bernie Williams
DH Joe DiMaggio
SP Roger Clemens
Closer Mariano Rivera

I want them Roided to the gills.

[paulcarek]

CF Mays
LF Musial
DH Williams
RF Ruth
C Posey
1B Clark
SS Wagner
2B Molitor
3B Sandoval

P Mathewson

Gamers, all. (Yes, I'm a Giants fan.)

[glynparson]

If you don't go with Lopez, I'd go with Tony Pena at Catcher or maybe even Kendall.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Compare Brooks Robinson's postseason stats to Mike Schmidt and the player who I would want manning the hot corner becomes very, very evident.

Brett OPS 1.023 .337 .397 .627
Brooks OPS .785 .303 .323 .462
Schmidt OPS .690 .236 .304 .386

It's clear to me who I want manning the hot corner, George Brett.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Lgarza99

I was thinking who I would start if my life depended on one game. Some of my picks are obvious, but others are based on one game heroics we have seen or read about through the years.

First sentence of first post seems to have gotten lost and been replaced with "who had the greatest career or best stats over a few years?", which is also a very interesting topic, but not the OP's.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by rats60

Brett OPS 1.023 .337 .397 .627
Brooks OPS .785 .303 .323 .462
Schmidt OPS .690 .236 .304 .386

It's clear to me who I want manning the hot corner, George Brett.

Small sample sizes such as "post season batting" can be so misleading. You make it seem as if Brett was somehow Mr. Clutch throughout his career in the post season. What if 1981 playoffs George Brett shows up? 1984? Again, if we are just looking at one game as a sample size and are willing to look at 150 at bats in the playoffs versus an entire career, why not just go with performance in one game? Didn't Rennie Stennett go 8 for 8 one game? That would make him the choice over Hornsby etc.

Now... Brett is a fine choice at third no matter the criteria, especially in his prime. Just don't base it exclusively on what he did in 150 at bats over the course of 12 seasons.

Tom C

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Didn't Rennie Stennett go 8 for 8 one game?


Tom C

Stennett went 7 for 7

[bravesfan22]

Lf Ricky Henderson
2b honus Wagner
Cf willie mays
Rf hank aaron
DH babe ruth
1b:Lou Gehrig
3b:Chipper jones (homer pick)
SS: Derek jeter
Catcher: Yogi Berra
Pitcher: christy mathewson
Closer: mariano Rivera

Unless I missed it I was the only one so far to pick hank Aaron which surprises me looking at his postseason stats. All a matter of opinion but I expected to see his name more.

Chipper was a Braves fan pick for me. A lot of postseason experience.
Wanted to put tom glavine as my pitcher based solely off of game 6 in 95 and my favorite player of all time but can't deny what Mathewson did in multiple series.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

Stennett went 7 for 7

Steve Balboni was known to perform fairly well when there was no pressure. You should have him bat clean-up.

[pgellis]

Watched him playing in the Cape League

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I am of the opinion that one could take 9 of the best players today and you would win more than you would lose against any other team put together.

Molina
Cabrera
Cano
Tulo
Beltre
Stanton
Trout
McCutchen
Kershaw

I think this is largely correct. As a rule, it seems to me that players are bigger, stronger, more athletic, better trained, start younger, and have to excel against better competition to make the majors than heroes of the past.