Trimmed Cards

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Another thread has me asking this question.

What do you do with trimmed cards?

I have about a dozen or more that came back from SGC trimmed, some I keep for my own collection, other I am not sure what to do with and I have sold some.

If I sell them I also send the tag plus the tap in the scan. Most of these cards are really nice and tough to detect the trimming. By selling them it always leaves open the possibility they will be sold as untrimmed, which is shown in another thread.

It would be great if there was a place where you could recoup what you have into the cards and put them out of circulation. A couple of years ago Sportscards plus put some large lots of T206s that were trimmed up on ebay, I had a hard time telling the trimming and called them and they stated it was tough to tell but definately trimmed. The cards went for decent prices but my guess is that most are either in holders or got sold as unaltered.

So I pose the question what do you do with trimmed cards?

Lee

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Posted By: JimCrandell

i had a lot of trimmed cards a few years back(including a green Ty Cobb T206) that I sold to a dealer who told me he would sell them as altered cards.

As an aside, you may want to try PSA or GAI. What one grading service considers trimmed another does not always has been my experience.

Jim

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Posted By: Anson

This is where I feel that grading companies ARE the best option. By getting cards graded as "authentic", it will authenticate the card but also point to the fact that the card probably has been altered. You can still sell the cards for something and, at the very least, know that you're being honest with potential buyers. The future buyer COULD crack the cards out of the holders and try to sell them raw. However, it would be a little more difficult and risky for them to do so.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Gee, That is quite ethical. If you can't get the right prescription from one doctor, just keep going to one until you find one that will. Heck, you can always go to PRO.

I presonally only use SGC because of the numerous problems with PSA and GAI has not gained my confidence. I would rather support a company that is doing business the right way they support a company that will get me a few dollars extra the hhas a shady history.

Anson, I agree with your assessment, heck you have to pay the fee any ways
Lee

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Posted By: T206Collector

I too use only use SGC for the same reasons. I only collect T206 cards, and when I get a trimmed one back from SGC, I keep the tag and always provide it if I sell the card again. I treat trimmed cards as filler cards in my collection. Even if it has no creases and sharp corners, I consider a good condition replacement as an upgrade.

When I sell a card that appears trimmed to me, but has not been verified by a grading company as affirmatively trimmed, I state the grade, but then state, like SGC, that the card has evidence of trimming in my opinion.

I really dislike trimmed cards. They look really funny to me.

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Posted By: Seth B.

Having read this board for some time, there seem to be an enormous amount of trimmed cards out there. We, obviously, would all rather die than cut a card (except for one poster a few weeks back). When were these cards trimmed? Are there still evil do'ers today who will take a pair of scissors to a scuffed T-206? Do you think any e-bay sellers/scammers are actively trimming cards? Or was this the fashionable thing to do in collecting in the 60's or earlier?

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

I personally don't have a big issue with trimmed cards, as long as they are presentable. I have never really understood the mentality in the hobby that if something is slightly trimmed that it is completely worthless. I have seen cards that would be minimally NRMT, except they are 1/32 to 1/16" short go for less than cards graded a 1-2 that look like they have been run over by a Mack truck. Personally there are some great looking "trimmed and worthless" cards out there that I wouldn't mind having in my personal collection. Of course this is my opinion,
-Rhett

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Posted By: Bryan

I have a couple of trimmed cards I want to get graded. Well basically I want them in a case. I know PSA and GAI encases graded cards as "authentic." Has anyone done this? How do you submit the cards and tell them you only want the card authenticated, not graded due to the trimming? I just don't want them sending the cards back to me telling me the cards are altered which I already knew. Or do PSA and GAI automatically assign an "authentic" grade to vintage cards that are trimmed?

Thanks for your help,

Bryan

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Posted By: Anson

I would guess some of both. Early on, many candy issues were trimmed down to T206 size for storage reasons. However, as the prices of both tobacco and candy issues have skyrocketed, many folks are trying to get every last penny out of their cards. If a razor or pair of scissors can make a substantial difference, many will take the chance.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

Only if you are going to collect them for fillers and can be happy with that ,that aspect is fine, who knows this but you???

if you are selling them , it should be stated 100% .Stating it is possibly trimmed and you know it is ....is wrong.

For some collectors or even dealers, if it is a Fireside or Just so ,cards in this nature come about,where are you going to find another?...I most likely would pass ,the word "trimmed is bothersome.

Dan

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Posted By: JimB

I think most of the trimming probably happened in the '80s and early '90's by greedy, unethical dealers trying to make a few extra bucks. I doubt that much trimming goes on today since the vast majority of it would be caught by one of the three big grading companies and most cards of significant value get graded before they are sold- at least in public forums like Ebay where most of the scammers hang out.
JimB

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Posted By: cmoking

These three E92 cards are graded trimmed by GAI. Can anyone tell they are trimmed from the scans? If they were not in GAI holders, would it be easy to pass it on as a unaltered card? (No worries, I own the card, and I'm not selling them nor am I taking them out of the case).



Personally, I have no problems with trimmed cards if it is documented as such and is still presentable. Given the much lower prices, it's worth it sometimes.

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Posted By: Elliot

The trimming is pretty obvious on the Bergen and McLean. On the Lajoie, it could be passed off as a bad scan. I think more than one edge is trimmed, but the bottom border of the Bergen could give you seasickness.

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Posted By: cmoking

I agree the Mclean is obvious. On the Bergen - if someone evened off the bottom right and the upper left to make it smooth, would you be able to tell from the size of the card based on a scan?

On the Lajoie, would you have been fooled if that was the scan on an ebay auction? I'm asking not because of any nefarious thoughts, but because I'm worried about being fooled when buying ungraded cards on ebay.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Lower left corner wear isn't kosker on Lajoie. SPotted that right away.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: zach

what about this? psa says it's trimmed but I don't really see it...

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Posted By: cmoking

Jay, thanks for the comments....I'm learning.

Here is the back of the card. From the back, how do you tell if the corner was trimmed or if the corner is worn/smushed?

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Posted By: T206Collector

I think your card is trimmed at the top. It looks unevenly cut.

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Posted By: jay behrens

round corners are an easy way to tell if some trimming was done. Instead of nice smooth wear on the corner, it makes an abrupt angle where the trimming as done.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...I've seen a few examples of trimmed cards being offered. Here's one without any suggestion that it might be trimmed, when it is pretty clear to me. The edges are not straight, this card was cut with scissors.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-1911-T206-J-J-Clarke-Cleveland-Near-Mint-Mint_W0QQitemZ5236924984QQcategoryZ86841QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem

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Posted By: T206Collector

...though it is a bit harder to tell. I would bet the top of this one has been shaved.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-BERGEN-09-T-206-VERY-RARE-Amazing-MINT-9_W0QQitemZ5237730122QQcategoryZ86840QQrdZ1QQcmdZV iewItem

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

theses cards do not look bad and are okay as long as you are happy.

long time collecters can tell caramels as they should be pretty decent sized on the top or bottom- many Croft's cocoas are miscut ,but good. We all will come into the guessing game on a raw card at one point, check the sellers refund policy.

I bought a trimmed nm caramel card once and the day I recieved it, I traded for 100.00 less then I put into ,just cannot stomach them.

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Posted By: cmoking

Dan, I bought my cards already graded as Authentic by GAI. I was ok with that as I was happy with the card looked and the price seemed right. But I am still interested to see how one detects or suspects a card has been trimmed. Looking at the Lajoie in person, I would say the bottom left corner is not as suspicious as the left side. It's hard to see in a 2-D scan, but the bottom left corner looks more robust when the card is tilted and one can see the corner dead on (or as dead on as possible when it is in a case). But the left edge has some raised areas that looks like it was due to cutting. I don't think that comes through in the scan.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I'd be happy to purchase trimmed N172 cards so long as the ad bottom is still present. I guess I'd accept the cards with the ad trimmed off if there was a greater discount. As long as the card is original, that's what counts. Rebacked OJs would be fine as long as it is tastefully or professionally done. What really intrigues me are cards that I've had for 20+ years that are short but don't have the appearance of being trimmed (rounded corners or they have even wear throughout the card).

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Posted By: Chris Mc

How about Obak premiums? Most I have seen have just the oval player cut from the cabinet. I would take one of those gems in a second!

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Posted By: steve k

<<< round corners are an easy way to tell if some trimming was done. Instead of nice smooth wear on the corner, it makes an abrupt angle where the trimming as done. >>>

Yes...often but not always. If a card when it was new received a ding of some sort and there are many, many types of dings, then along with that there is 50 to 100 years of handling the card and natural aging wear in a shoebox, drawer, closet, attic or basement environment, there could be an abrupt angle on an untrimmed card. Again...not often but sometimes. The key to spotting it is that the abrupt angle has to have basically equal looking wear throughout the entire angle as the other corners. Easy to notice when examining a card - not always easy and sometimes impossible to notice from a scan.

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Posted By: pete

I'd buy a trimmed card if it wasnt too bad or obviously at an angle...I don't think I'd buy a trimmed card if it went through the name of the player or any part of an advertisement on the front.
As far as GAI or PSA authenticating, I emailed GAI a while back and I was told they dont authenticate cards anymore, but I've heard different from people on this board...and I was told NO by PSA when I emailed them.
Email them now and ask, maybe they changed their practices, couldnt hurt!
pete-

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Posted By: tbob

I have heard the same thing regarding SGC and GAI not authenticating cards but at the National, both were doing it for trimmed or altered (color addition) cards, so I assume they are doing the same thing with their mail in submissions.
Many caramel cards are well-handled and lovingly abused and some are trimmed because they were to big to fit in to the T206 style holders that came out in the 70's. When you do find a beautiful caramel card which has been slightly trimmed but with tremendous eye appeal, I see no problem with keeping it and having it slabbed in an authentic holder. I agree with the above poster that a gorgeous E98 Mack which is 1/64 short is better than one that is SGC 10 and looks like it passed through someone's alimentary canal.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I'd like to see one of these non-trimmed cards that has a rounded corner that abruptly angles. I've never seen one, and I've handled a lot of cards. Not as many as some, but more than most. I've need a seen a card look like this that was not trimmed.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

My latest response from PSA was that they will no longer authenticate trimmed cards. The only exception is hand cut cards from strips, panels, boxes etc. With those cards, if the cut exceeds the visible border, an "authentic" grade will be assigned.

In terms of re-submitting cards that have been deemed "trimmed", I see no problem with that. Mistakes can occur. I have personally opened several wax packs of 1950's Baseball and Non-Sports cards and have had some of the cards returned to me as "trimmed"! A simple re-submit and the card was graded. So yes, if your doctor makes a mistake with your prescription, have it corrected.

Frank

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Posted By: Wesley

We all have different preferences and mine is different than tbob's on this issue. I would take an ugly PSA 1 or SGC 10 over a nicer looking altered card any day of the week.

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Posted By: tbob

Wes- that's what makes the world go 'round
I respect your opinion and believe it is shared by the majority of collectors.
Bob

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

The only reason I can think of as to why the grading companies won't slab a trimmed card and label it authentic is because they hope that the card will continue to be resubmitted. They make more money in the long run.

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Posted By: Richard

Since the grading companies take your money anyways when a card is trimmed, they SHOULD slab the card and label it "authentic - trimmed". Afterall, you already paid for the plastic slab and the encasing service!

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

It's ridiculous. They'll slab a card that has a billion creases, pin holes, paper loss, et cetera, but they won't slab a trimmed card???

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Posted By: jay behrens

It's always been my contention too that if they are going to reject holdering a card for trimming or other problems, then a portion of the fee needs to be refunded since they didn't have to go to the trouble and expense of slabbing the card. If they are going to keep all the money, then they ned to be slabbing the card.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Lee,

I find that whether a card is trimmed is a matter of opinion. What one grading service thinks is trimmed--another may not so if I did not think it was I would try again. Occasionally I would try twice with PSA and get a better result the second time.

Jim

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Jim,

Correct me if I am wrong, you do not like raw cards but when you do buy them you send to your gading company of choice, which appears to be PSA, if you do not receive the grade you feel that it should receive, you send it back until you do get the grade you feel the card should get. That to me does not show much confidence in your company of choice. Would you buy a PSA 8 or better that is obviously trimmed (examples of this have shown up on this board in the past) but is in there holder?

My question to you is why they do you use the grading company if you have a predetermined grade that you do not seem to accept from your grading company of choice?

I personally only use SGC because I believe in what they do, I may not agree with all there grades but I do live with them.
I also wish the grading companies would holder the card even if it is trimmed since they charge you for the service.

Lee

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Lee,

1)I have no bought raw cards in over 10 years but I have a couple hundred raw sets from the pre-grading days.

2)With minor exceptions I submit these cards to PSA.

3)The way I do things is give 1,000 or so cards at a time to a major submitter who gets a very low rate. After getting the cards back he reviews them for resubmissions.

4)I do not feel PSA is as good a grader as SGC

5)Would I buy a trimmed card in a holder--definately not!!!!

6)Why then do I use PSA??I am a set collector in 8 or better
and it is hard to find SGC88s for the sets I collect....and I do like the PSA Set Registry.

Jim

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Posted By: cmoking

"4)I do not feel PSA is as good a grader as PSA"

Should the second PSA in your sentence be SGC or GAI (or both)?

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Good catch--change made.

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Posted By: Bill Kasel

I think trimmed cards are a great way for the collectors like myself working from a very limited budget to get more expensive cards at a discount. I care more for the images and players than I do the edges. I don't plan on selling any of my trimmed cards, but if I did it would obviously be noted. Here's a neat example I picked up for under $30 with obvious trimming.

Funny that it is another Bergen.



Bill

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Posted By: FYS

"6)Why then do I use PSA??I am a set collector in 8 or better
and it is hard to find SGC88s for the sets I collect....and I do like the PSA Set Registry."

You obviously like a challenge, wouldn't it be more rewarding, more appealing and more accurately graded to at least try and do an SGC set?

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Posted By: Chris Counts

About two years ago I picked up a lot of about 20 Diamond Stars off eBay. They were sold as trimmed and I paid less than $5 a card. On a whim, I recently showed about 10 of them to a grader at a card show (he was from GAI) and he only rejected one of them.

Personally, I don't mind trimmed cards, as long as the trimmer did a nice job and I'm not paying top dollar. I feel the same way about tape stains and off-centered cards.

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Posted By: steve k

Jay - Take a look at the thread of Hal's t206 Wagner which has a picture. We might not be communicating right about what is an "abrupt angle" but at the top left corner there is sort of an "abrupt angle" slightly towards the top edge. Perhaps when you meant "abrupt angle" it would look different than this. But obvious trimming is easy to spot - what is tough is spotting a "professional" trimmed job.

On this t206 Wagner - This "abrupt angle" or "indentation" whatever it would be called, could have been many, many years ago a ding, a rubber band mark, or who knows what but it's there. But the wear on the four corners looks evenly aged and not trimmed - and of course that's too easy of a call because it's already in a SGC holder - LOL.

But if I saw a raw card like that, with an angle like that, with UNEQUAL wear, then in my view it most likely would have been trimmed. Of course, good scammers realize this also but I have never inspected a card in person with a magnifying glass whereby "wear" was successfully done - again though...on a scan sometimes this is difficult to detect which is why for me personally when buying an expensive (for me expensive is over $100 - LOL) card off of ebay I always only buy a slabbed card from a reputable grading company - never raw. In person though I buy raw cards all the time.

Steve

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Posted By: jay behrens

we are talking about 2 completely different things. The abrupt angle I am refering to is when a card shows wear on a corner and all of the sudden, instead of sonsistant wear, you get a sharp, clean angle off the worn corner. There is no such angle on Hal's card. I am not talking about random angles in radom places on the card. I am talking specfically about the corners. I've never seen a card with this type of angle occur naturally. It has always been because of trimming.

jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: steve k

<<< instead of sonsistant wear, you get a sharp, clean angle off the worn corner. >>>

Good point Jay - completely agree!

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Posted By: JimCrandell

FYS,

Don't underestimate how difficult it is to do a all psa 8 set for virtually any set in the 1950s and most of the sets in the 1960s.

Doing as many sets as I am doing it would be near impossible to complete my sets card by card using SGC.

Jim

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Posted By: John

I don’t think FYS underestimated you or even implied to underestimate you Jim. He asked a question, why would it be harder have they had less of those cards submitted, or are they less generous with the grades?

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

SGC has had a lot fewer cards submitted to them than PSA and it would be extremely difficult to build an SGC 88 set for most of what I collect because of this.

Jim