T206 Players with 3 or more cards in the set

[Blunder19]

Curious as to everyones opinion on why some players who are not HOFers were given 3 different cards in the T206 set.. i would think the more cards a player has the more popular of a player he would have been at that time..

I would have expected a majority of the players with 3+ cards in the set to be HOFers..... For reference here are the 25 players with 3 or more cards in the set...the players in Bold are the HOFers which represent only 13 of the 25.

Do you think these popular players didnt finish strong enough to be in the HOF?.... maybe some of these non HOF players were the "snubbed players of their day" who didnt make it in..

(im excluding 4 players with variations/errors, namely elberfeld, kleinow frank smith, and magee.. the 3rd card for each of these 3 players was due to a team switch or error, not because the player was popular)

1. Red Ames
2. Chief Bender
3. Mordecai Brown
4. Howie Camnitz
5. Frank Chance
6. Hal Chase
7. Ty Cobb
8. Mike Donlin
9. Larry Doyle
10. Johnny Evers
11. Hugh Jennings
12. Nap Lajoie
13. Joe Lake
14. Rube Marquard
15. Christy Mathewson
16. John McGraw
17. George Mullin
18. Chief Meyers
19. Orval Overall
20. Admiral Schlei
21. Cy Seymour
22. Joe Tinker
23. Vic Willis
24. Hook Wiltse
25. Cy Young

[MVSNYC]

Jamie, I think you hit the nail on the head. They were strong/polular players circa 1909-1911 (warranting 3+ poses), then either petered-out, declined, got injured, died (maybe I'm exaggerating), or got thrown out of the game. We know, for instance, Hal Chase would've very likely been a HOFer, but gamblers got to him first.

Cool thread, I'll try to post a few cards later tonight.

[Eric72]

Hal Chase was one of the better players of the era; however, his ties to gambling (and allegedly throwing games) make it unlikely he'll ever be inducted into the HOF.

ETA: someone beat me to it.

[Fred]

Are most of those players on specific teams? For example, NY Giants?

[Rhotchkiss]

If They made a T206 set for baseball players in 1990, Doc Gooden would have many examples. Not a hall of famer. Not all of the great players during the years 1907-1910 (likely the time period a player's merits were considered for the T206 set) ended up having HOF careers (or they were amazing players but also bad dudes, like Hal Chase).

I do find it interesting those players with 4 examples. I understand Cobb , and of course Tinker was bigtime around them, but McGraw and not Matty, Young, or Lajoie?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Fred

Are most of those players on specific teams? For example, NY Giants?

Six of the thirteen non-HOFs are Giants. I think that's a big part of the explanation, ATC was putting in more players from their biggest market. And two of the other players are NY Highlanders (Yankees).

[Pat R]

Jamie, at the very least I would put an asterisk next to Frank Smith since his Chicago and Chicago & Boston cards are the exact same image and the only difference is the caption team change. Also if you credit Smith with three cards you would need to include Elberfeld and Kleinow.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Blunder19

Curious as to everyones opinion on why some players who are not HOFers were given 3 different cards in the T206 set.. i would think the more cards a player has the more popular of a player he would have been at that time..

1. Red Ames
2. Howie Camnitz - no slouch, won 20 in 1909 and 1911 (and 1912)
3. Hal Chase - well, he's Hal Chase
4. Mike Donlin
5. Larry Doyle
6. Joe Lake - lost 20 in 1908
7. George Mullin - no slouch, won 20 5x from 1905-1910
8. Chief Meyers
9. Orval Overall - no slouch, won 20 in 1907 and 1909
10. Admiral Schlei
11. Cy Seymour
12. Frank Smith - no slouch, won 20 in 1907 and 1909
13. Hook Wiltse

I saw (7) Giants and a Highlander (NY).

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Fred

I saw (7) Giants and a Highlander (NY).

Lake was also a Highlander on one of his cards.

[Fred]

Cool thread. It's neat to see these anomalies noticed. Oddly enough, when I envision some kid on the street looking for cards back in 1909-1911, for some reason I always think of NY. Not sure why that is. I'm not even from that coast.

[The Detroit Collector]

I think during the time they were great well-respected stars. As a few has mentioned they didnt have a Hall of Fame Career as time went on. Personally, I believe Mullen should be in the Hall of Fame.

[Steve D]

Mike Donlin was HOF-caliber (.333 lifetime batting average), but gave up the game to try a career on Broadway (in the theater), and then Hollywood.

Steve

[Steve D]

Orval Overall went 23-7 in 1907, and 20-11 in 1909, both with the Cubs. He was also 3-0 pitching in the 1907 and 1908 World Series, both times the Cubs beating the Tigers. He only played seven seasons though in the majors, so he's not eligible for the hall of fame.

Howie Camnitz was 25-6 in 1909, 20-15 in 1911, 22-12 in 1912. In 1913, he dropped to 9-20, and then he went 14-19 in 1914, and was finished.

Steve

[MVSNYC]

JB- this thread needs some cards

[Blunder19]

Cy Seymour is still the Reds all time batting average leader with a lifetime average of .332!!!

[brianp-beme]

Although he was a proficient pitcher on some bad teams, Joe Lake is the player that sticks out to me as being the least deserving of those having 3 T206 cards. I can understand his New York card in the 150 series, and his St. Louis Browns (no ball) card in the 350/460 series. But why another card in the 460 only series? The only reason I can think is that ATC wanted more representation of the St. Louis Browns in the later series, and Joe was sadly one of the top Brownies among slim pickings. Harry Howell (hands at waist) is the only other Browns player in the 460 only series.

Brian

[Blunder19]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Jamie, at the very least I would put an asterisk next to Frank Smith since his Chicago and Chicago & Boston cards are the exact same image and the only difference is the caption team change. Also if you credit Smith with three cards you would need to include Elberfeld and Kleinow.

Good call Pat. I removed frank smith because his 3rd card was just a variation. Elberfeld, frank smith, Kleinow, and Magee are all excluded from this list of players with 3 cards.

[Rhotchkiss]

Looking at the list, almost all of the players with 3 cards played for teams in New York or Chicago, the country’s two largest cities. Followed by players from Pittsburgh and Detroit, large cities and two of the best teams of the era.

I think it’s all about advertising and appealing to your customers - more customers in those cities and customers want popular players. Thus, it was likely a combo of prowess, popularity, and domicile/size of city-market.

[drumback]

That Uzit Mullin has amazing color on the front. A beautiful card on both sides!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

JB- this thread needs some cards

Nice Uzit and upside down double back Mike.

I have a Schlei catching back run with a twist that I'm working on. I have Piedmont 150 with a magenta shift and one with a Howe McCormick stamp, a Piedmont 350 with a factory WST transfer on the front,
a Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 with the factory 649 and 30 showing and a Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30 with a small portion of the factory 30 sheet number on the bottom.

I still need to get the Sweet Caporal 150 25 & 30 to complete the back run. I just missed a BIN lot the other day that had a Schlei SC350/30 that had more of the factory 30 sheet number showing than the one I have.


Schlei catching back run - Copy.jpg

[wazoo]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Nice Uzit and upside down double back Mike.

I have a Schlei catching back run with a twist that I'm working on. I have Piedmont 150 with a magenta shift and one with a Howe McCormick stamp, a Piedmont 350 with a factory WST transfer on the front,
a Sweet Caporal 150 factory 649 with the factory 649 and 30 showing and a Sweet Caporal 350 factory 30 with a small portion of the factory 30 sheet number on the bottom.

I still need to get the Sweet Caporal 150 25 & 30 to complete the back run. I just missed a BIN lot the other day that had a Schlei SC350/30 that had more of the factory 30 sheet number showing than the one I have.


Attachment 608541

What a fun run! I did the same one and the Sweet Caps honestly took me the longest.

[MVSNYC]

Thanks Mark, and Pat! Most Uzits seem to have faded or not bold ink...this one is definitely the darkest/boldest printing I've seen on a Uzit.

Pat- great run!

Here's a few more cards from the list...

[puckpaul]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

If They made a T206 set for baseball players in 1990, Doc Gooden would have many examples. Not a hall of famer. Not all of the great players during the years 1907-1910 (likely the time period a player's merits were considered for the T206 set) ended up having HOF careers (or they were amazing players but also bad dudes, like Hal Chase).

I do find it interesting those players with 4 examples. I understand Cobb , and of course Tinker was bigtime around them, but McGraw and not Matty, Young, or Lajoie?

McGraw had a big personality and was hugely popular, it seems. I picked up two charms the booster clubs of Giants fans made for him to celebrate their success, in 1904 (pictured) and in 1908. They were in the Sothebys Halper auction. (Sorry about the size of the pictures…I no longer seem to be able to choose the size of my image file to control it, something changed a few months ago with iphone?). The charm is gold and diamonds, about 2 inches in diameter and heavy.

[bobbvc]

Curious about the Camnitz (Howie). I have seen some checklists with the third Camnitz card listed as his brother Harry. I have a Pirates team collage with both of their head shots on the 1909 team. Harry was a bit player for sure but does anyone here know if all three t206 poses are indeed Howie or did Harry sneak in a pose? Thanks.

[insidethewrapper]

Of the 38 HOF'ers in the set :

3 have 4 cards ( Cobb, McGraw and Tinker ).
10 have 3 cards
9 have 2 cards
16 have 1 only card.

Complete HOF T 206 contains 38 HOF'ers with a total of 76 cards.

Hal Chase, not in the Hall , has 5 cards !

[Kidnapped18]

I have a Piedmont Donlin
Star player and WS Champion but alcohol and acting took him away from the game

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by bobbvc

Curious about the Camnitz (Howie). I have seen some checklists with the third Camnitz card listed as his brother Harry. I have a Pirates team collage with both of their head shots on the 1909 team. Harry was a bit player for sure but does anyone here know if all three t206 poses are indeed Howie or did Harry sneak in a pose? Thanks.

“Howie” Camnitz was born in Covington, Kentucky, and his brother Harry was also a baseball pitcher — some say there is evidence that one of the three T206 Camnitz poses is attributable to Harry, perhaps the hand at side pose, but I am not convinced — Harry only pitched a grand total of 6 innings over 3 games, one in 1909 and two in 1912.

Camnitz earned three appearances in the T206 set for his deadball era dominant pitching. In his first full season with the Pirates in 1907, Howie had a 13–8 record with a 2.15 ERA in 180 innings, including a five-inning no-hitter against the New York Giants on August 23. The next year, he went 16–9 with a 1.56 ERA and 15 complete games in 19 starts.

With an excellent curveball, Howie collected three 20-win seasons for the Pittsburgh Pirates from 1909 to 1912, leading his team to the 1909 World Series after winning 25 games in the regular season and tying Christy Mathewson for the National League lead winning percentage (.806). The Pirates won the World Series that year, though Howie pitched poorly in two outings. The Series is best remembered for the amazing play by the two best players at the time, Honus Wagner and Ty Cobb.

Howie pitched at least 240 innings for seven consecutive years (1908–14) with a career-high 283 innings in 1909, winning 20 games in 1911 and 22 in 1912.

[Blunder19]